Riot, will we ever hear a true, candid, argument in favor of your lore retcon?

Impetual·Nov 17, 2014·62 votes·5,821 views

Seriously,

the idea the that Summoners were too powerful didn't make much sense. Lee Sin himself had some training in the ways of a summoner and he wasn't crazy powerful.

Heck, in LoL's lore Summoner's weren't ever depicted as being stronger than champions. They just had the ability to summon them, and use summoner spells.

Riot please, we need more context. Your new lore direction doesn't make sense in relation to League of Legends.

111 Comments

CupcakeTrapNov 17, 201429 votes

Heck, in LoL's lore Summoner's weren't ever depicted as being stronger than champions. They just had the ability to summon them, and use summoner spells.

I think it's pretty clear that a Champion is much more powerful than just about any number of Summoners. What we Summoners have going for us is that we have lots of "book-smarts" and more versatile magic. Combat-wise, a Summoner isn't all that impressive, when not being used as intended: to support Champions. A Champion with a Summoner watching their back and channeling more power to them is much more effective than a lone Champion. In terms of stature, rather than raw "power", Champions are heroes and celebrities, and we're their backup. The nicer Champions treat Summoners respectfully; the others are more dismissive. We work for them, not the other way around. In some formal sense, the League favors Summoners, with Champions as guests in our international forum, but in a practical sense they've got more pull back home, where the real power lies. But it's not a competition, Pam! We work together.

The League, all-powerful? Not at all. It's got some power, and a lot of knowledge about magical affairs, but its power lies almost exclusively in the mandate it holds from the nations of Valoran. It's (sometimes grudgingly) respected as the main source of international law in Valoran.

As for why Narrative did this, most likely:

People like us are not their target audience
They brought in a bunch of people to "redo the lore", and these outsiders did it in the least Riot way possible
They want a Runeterran MMO or something, and no longer see making a story for League of Legends as their primary objective
They're personally ambitious, and like many artists they crave a blank slate and want total control; if they dislike something, they want to be able to obliterate it (which I consider a problematic desire when working on an organic story-verse with an active community)
They want something that's easy to make toys and other products about
They're embarrassed by their indie past and are tossing out everything that's kind of quirky or distinctive in favor of industry-standard varnish

It's also entirely possible that they just screwed up. It's hard to imagine Riot hiring a team like that, but maybe they really did just fail to seriously try to understand the League and Summoners. Maybe they really didn't know that there was an active lore community in the path of their bulldozer.

I don't think it's malice. I think it's just them not caring about us. We're super-hardcore lore people, and we'll keep doing our League of Legends lore, even if it means diverging from their Leagueless League lore in a few places. We're already invested.

Champion SkinNov 18, 20144 votes

But that's the thing even if they did want the Institute of war gone... couldn't they have written it into the story... As there are many ways that the institute could lose it's power/standing with the nations of Valoran or it could down in flames to some of the more destructive and wild/evil champions Or something like that they are writers I am sure they could figure something out... then again I guess it is impossible to please everyone

Silver5arumanNov 17, 201424 votes

Unfortunately it's hard for Riot to admit they made a mistake. I'd love to have the past few months of lore completely gone, that awful Harrowing timeline, the cheesy Shurima videos, the very strange Gnar/Braum storylines all forgotten so we can just start fresh. If they want to get rid of the League of Legends from League of Legends there should at least be an event.

FinnicalNov 17, 201422 votes

Bigger problem is the Narrative team will not even dignify our compliants with a response. They simply ignore the complaints and keep doing whatever they feel like doing without any interest in our opinion.

Valaran NaraNov 17, 201412 votes

Bigger problem is the Narrative team will not even dignify our compliants with a response. They simply ignore the complaints and keep doing whatever they feel like doing without any interest in our opinion.

An even bigger problem would be the hassle of constantly trying to explain oneself to people who asks, relatively, the same question.

They "tried" talking to people. Yes, people weren't fond of it. Of COURSE, people found flaws in what they said and isn't content with any of the answers, but that's just it. If I get into an argument or discussion with somebody who asks me the same question over and over, who rebukes everything I say, why should I continue explaining? If you were 3rd person, you would see whoever is trying to explain their case to be stupid for even bothering with the other person who either refuses to listen or refuses to backdown.

They stopped talking about the retcon not because they fear us or because they lied or whatever and can't give proper reason. They stopped bothering because the only thing that will satisfy anyone who is still complaining is to revert the retcon. People get sick and tired of arguing. They're done with the topic of the retcon in and of itself. They'll tease and humor us with information about some of the champs, what they "may" be thinking of, who they plan to tackle next, and clarification on what they pushed out like the Harrowing Event and the likes, but they refuse and will not terry any further on a topic from 2-3 months ago; a topic that turned most if not all of the lore community against them, a topic which gave rise to insults, confrontation, death threats and the threat of rape (RIP Riot Opelli), and worse of all the topic that Narrative had to pull because of possible orders from higher up.

They are not going to answer...EVER.

(sorry for the rant. X_X Tired of the complaints.)

The Lewd OneNov 17, 201412 votes

The situation for Riot sucks, no doubt about that, but the problem is that they don't understand that their silence is more daunting to people that loved the lore more so than any negative answer at all. Chances are if a majority of the lore fanbase said that they did not approve of the lore changes they have made over the past three months it should be a sign that the direction they took could be considered the "wrong" one, at least from the viewpoint of the fans.

Your argument for why Riot stopped responding is good for common logic but when it comes to a creative process that Riot decided to engage the fans in and ask their opinion the same logic does not apply. There is a rule in The Evil Overlord List (A list for the top 100 things you should if you ever find yourself in the position of Evil Overlord) that states:

If my advisors ask "Why are you risking everything on such a mad scheme?", I will not proceed until I have a response that satisfies them.

It may be on a comedy list but this one rule I think really applies to the current situation. It's not the fan base (or the advisors) fault for asking these questions, especially because Riot (or the Overlord) wanted them there for their opinion in the first place. It's not the adviser's job to create a new plan for The Overlord, only to offer their opinion to the current plan.

Overall I think Riot really needs to think about this one a lot harder than they obviously did. If fans of the lore can poke holes in the retcon of League's official writers that the writers can't explain it's probably not a positive sign for the future quality of lore...And in a place like the internet where criticism can be found for everything, when a sect of once loyal fans are now questioning the direction Riot is taking and Riot can't come up with appropriate answers to satisfy that sect then they should at least let us know what we've said has been taking to heart. The people who made the death threats and threats of rape are disgusting human beings but allowing the lowest common denominator decide the fate of a matter is disheartening to say the least.

Valaran NaraNov 17, 20148 votes

I can't argue with any of what you said in the least, but in all honesty, remember the one common response when riot tells people they are listening: "If you were, then..."

At this point, if they turn back the retcon, any work they did now would have been for naught. Forget about hanging their heads in shame. They would have to restart EVERYTHING they stop, which means we could be in for a VERY long wait before things pick up, and we're already doing that now. Imagine the wait time being even longer to see progress on things already done before the retcon, just so they can get it back working.

The only thing they really have left is trying to crank out content as best as possible because taking their direction in reverse will only make things more confusing.

On the bright side, we can agree on one thing: I hope Rito got something good in the bag.

MotajoNov 17, 20146 votes

They would have to restart EVERYTHING they stop

Like how they already have to?

Valaran NaraNov 17, 20142 votes

They would have to restart EVERYTHING they stop

Like how they already have to?

It's not like they could go back to the JoJ and rev it back up within a week.

MotajoNov 17, 20146 votes

It's not like they could go back to the JoJ and rev it back up within a week.

The JoJ was shut down within the story, as well as outside of it. I'm saying that the retcon made far more work be "for naught" than revoking a two-month-old statement. Besides, it's not like it would be agonizingly difficult to fit the Shurima happenings into a world with the League. As for the Harrowing stuff, I haven't looked into it much, but what I've seen is vague anyway.

CupcakeTrapNov 17, 201414 votes

At this point, if they turn back the retcon, any work they did now would have been for naught. Forget about hanging their heads in shame. They would have to restart EVERYTHING they stop, which means we could be in for a VERY long wait before things pick up, and we're already doing that now.

I don't think this is true. As has been often pointed out, nothing in the post-retcon material really conflicts with the League of Legends. If we've missed something, feel free to say so, but I don't see any meaningful problems. Actually, the League fills in some plot holes, like why Azir's new Shurima is still standing.

DiahaneNov 18, 20144 votes

I can't argue with any of what you said in the least, but in all honesty, remember the one common response when riot tells people they are listening: "If you were, then..."

At this point, if they turn back the retcon, any work they did now would have been for naught. Forget about hanging their heads in shame. They would have to restart EVERYTHING they stop, which means we could be in for a VERY long wait before things pick up, and we're already doing that now. Imagine the wait time being even longer to see progress on things already done before the retcon, just so they can get it back working.

The only thing they really have left is trying to crank out content as best as possible because taking their direction in reverse will only make things more confusing.

On the bright side, we can agree on one thing: I hope Rito got something good in the bag.

It's not like they never had the lore on hiatus for years xD At this point I'd better not have any lore for another year, but have a lore I can actually invest in.

LordHippomanNov 17, 20145 votes

This is a pretty solid point. There's not much motivation for them to try and talk about the retcon, because when they do, they usually just get downvoted to hell at best and at worst threatened. I agree that the retcon was a big mistake, but if they go back on it now they face so many issues from stuff they might already have written to backlash from higher ups, that there's really no way to do it. They've played their cards, and it didn't go well, but there are sort of no backsies when it's gone on this long. The damage is done and people won't say "Oh, Riot, we forgive you!" It would fester under the surface and come up any time Narrative did something wrong, like "1000 RP" before it. And shooting Nikasaur and Tamat with nerf balls wouldn't fix it.

Riot is talking on these boards more than ever before. Under kitae in 2013, we had a total of 5 posts on the Lore boards. Jaredan, CarnivalKnights, Runaan, etc. have more than doubled that in one topic. The issue is that it's really not what some people want to hear, but what they want to hear is "We're putting back the League Of Legends." And sadly it really just has almost no likelihood of happening.

Dwelling too much on it is only going to make the problem worse. A ton of people have made a ton of great points, despite the bad apples howling for the heads of Riot staff and comparing Narrative to Nazi Germany or whatever, and it looks like all that's going to be said has been said. I think it's time to move on and talk about how the new Lore can build to match the old one, instead of trying to resurrect something that likely isn't coming back. The Old Lore isn't dead, it'll live on in the thousands upon thousands of fan works about it, and nothing can take those away or make you stop creating them. But Riot wants to try out something new, and while I'm personally not a big fan of the change, Reborn was great. I thought Azir's story was the best we've had since the Judgements stopped. And I had fun with the Harrowing stuff, that even put Nautilus in the Lore for the first time since his bio.

TL;DR

We don't all have to agree on the direction Lore is taking. But I think remaining civil in the face of a big shakeup and controversy is about the most mature thing we can do as fans. If you'd rather pretend the old Lore is still the canon and head off to write a new story to expand it in your own way, that's fine. Just don't boo and hiss at Reds when they come to post. If you want to toss out the IOW and League like yesterday's news and focus on Shurima and what's coming next, that's fine too. Just don't freak out on someone for saying they miss the JoJ or whatever. I've been a Lore fan as long as I have because I liked the people. And this whole fiasco has hurt that a lot, but if there's any group of League fans I think can be reasonable in the face of something like this, it's the Lore fans.

CupcakeTrapNov 17, 201411 votes

Riot is talking on these boards more than ever before. Under kitae in 2013, we had a total of 5 posts on the Lore boards. Jaredan, CarnivalKnights, Runaan, etc. have more than doubled that in one topic. The issue is that it's really not what some people want to hear, but what they want to hear is "We're putting back the League Of Legends." And sadly it really just has almost no likelihood of happening.

We've gotten lots of posts, but very little meaningful community engagement in the Riot style. They're still refusing to tip their hands early enough that discussion can meaningfully affect what they do next.

I can tell you what most other departments at Riot are focusing on right now, and point to ongoing community conversations on those topics, within which Riot is not only making its case but also taking community input seriously.

In contrast, Riot's been tossing out radical Champion rewrites without an iota of community input or discussion. Like, sooner or later Carnival is going to plunk down a total rewrite of Fiddlesticks. It might be good, it might be bad, but it definitely won't have been discussed with the community.

They deleted the League of Legends from League of Legends without any community involvement at all. Reworking Skarner's kit got multiple rounds of community interaction and debate; obliterating the foundations of League lore got none. I'm not holding my breath waiting for them to discuss something as comparatively minor as a single Champion's backstory rewrite.

DiahaneNov 18, 20146 votes

Bigger problem is the Narrative team will not even dignify our compliants with a response. They simply ignore the complaints and keep doing whatever they feel like doing without any interest in our opinion.

An even bigger problem would be the hassle of constantly trying to explain oneself to people who asks, relatively, the same question.

They "tried" talking to people. Yes, people weren't fond of it. Of COURSE, people found flaws in what they said and isn't content with any of the answers, but that's just it. If I get into an argument or discussion with somebody who asks me the same question over and over, who rebukes everything I say, why should I continue explaining? If you were 3rd person, you would see whoever is trying to explain their case to be stupid for even bothering with the other person who either refuses to listen or refuses to backdown.

They stopped talking about the retcon not because they fear us or because they lied or whatever and can't give proper reason. They stopped bothering because the only thing that will satisfy anyone who is still complaining is to revert the retcon. People get sick and tired of arguing. They're done with the topic of the retcon in and of itself. They'll tease and humor us with information about some of the champs, what they "may" be thinking of, who they plan to tackle next, and clarification on what they pushed out like the Harrowing Event and the likes, but they refuse and will not terry any further on a topic from 2-3 months ago; a topic that turned most if not all of the lore community against them, a topic which gave rise to insults, confrontation, death threats and the threat of rape (RIP Riot Opelli), and worse of all the topic that Narrative had to pull because of possible orders from higher up.

They are not going to answer...EVER.

(sorry for the rant. X_X Tired of the complaints.)

I understand the point you're making, but I do not agree on them trying to actually argue in favour of their choice. I will be brief: they didn't argue in favour of their choice, they only stated their choice. Every question they replied to, was them stating what they had written in the dev blog, which is anything but a real logical argument, it's more a manifesto for their plans. If someone then comes questioning you as to why they would say that X is actually a solution to Y and why Y is actually a problem in the old frame, you can't answer "we do X because of Y". The main concern has been the IoW and ensuing plot holes. People have offered uncountable arguments as to why the IoW was not, in their opinion, restrictive as they presented it in the dev blog; the right way to reply would be to get into the details and expand on the matter by arguing something and not repeating that you want to tell stories which breathe and live, because the feeling a story has is subjective and this is no argument: to me the IoW's stories lived and breathed, but Xerath's new one does not - is Unbound a bad story? No. Was the IoW perfect? No. But people liked the IoW and the cool plot device it could be. When erasing such a thing as the League, the one which gave the name to the game, you can't say you did it because you as a writer didn't like to work with it, because then people would just say that them as readers did like it and don't like the new content. And if said people happen to be the majority (there was a poll on the forums indicating this) of the ones who actually care enough to bother hopping on the lore forums, chances there are that you are just messing with your core fanbase when it comes to lore.

In all this, the aggravating fact is that they pulled a retcon announcement without having any retconned content ready, which is just preposterous and puts narrative as a team in the worst possible light, because it gives the impression they're not even professionals.

OJ191Nov 17, 201413 votes

err delonix I'm pretty sure the league was just the magical equivalent of nuclear disarmament treaties, they didn't stop all wars

and there are many ways to get rid of the summoners without having to retcon them, if you still wanted to get rid of them

delonixNov 17, 20141 votes

I sort of answered your post in my responses to Finnical and Sneak Dog, but I'll do a short version here. A "magical equivalent" of nuclear disarmament literally would stop all wars. There weren't clear limits on the magical abilities of the summoners, so their ability to do all sorts of stuff, combined with the cooperation of the two largest city-states is a pretty solid way to prevent conflict.

I agree, there are many ways to get rid of the summoners without a retcon, but that would just create a new problem. See my response to Finnical for more on this.

CupcakeTrapNov 17, 201411 votes

A "magical equivalent" of nuclear disarmament literally would stop all wars.

So say Rune Wars magic was different from your average Ignite or whatever. (This is pretty strongly implied in lore already, but I'm not going to fret about sticking to canon, because clearly that's not one of the criteria here: deleting the League of Legends from League of Legends is about as drastic a change to canon as you can get, so obviously everything was on the table.) Rune Wars magic involves tapping into leylines in a dangerous and destructive way to perform very high-energy spells. It's the sort of thing that factions would only resort to in very large engagements with a lot on the line.

So why not just ban Rune Wars spells? Well, they do, but the kind of total war that would lead a faction to even consider such magic is also the kind of war that would make it likely they'd be willing to defy the League. There's no bright, clear line, but it's understood you need to step in before it gets that bad. Consider relations between nuclear powers in the Cold War: you don't just say "okay, no launching nukes", you do what you can to prevent the type of hostilities that would cause nukes to start flying.

DiahaneNov 18, 20147 votes

I sort of answered your post in my responses to Finnical and Sneak Dog, but I'll do a short version here. A "magical equivalent" of nuclear disarmament literally would stop all wars. There weren't clear limits on the magical abilities of the summoners, so their ability to do all sorts of stuff, combined with the cooperation of the two largest city-states is a pretty solid way to prevent conflict.

I agree, there are many ways to get rid of the summoners without a retcon, but that would just create a new problem. See my response to Finnical for more on this.

The summoners would have had all the limits the writers would write of. If the problem was them being limitless, they could just state otherwise in a lore piece. For instance, they could have written a scene in which the IoW's higher-ups discuss about the resources spent to resolve the Kalamanda accident and the political aftermath after it got revealed one of them conspired with Swain to get a hold of Kalamanda's nexuses. Meanwhile they could hint at their very limits as summoners and the limits of the magic they wield. But this would have obviously required way more work on their part than saying "the IoW never existed".

delonixNov 18, 2014

But this would have obviously required way more work on their part than saying "the IoW never existed".

Right, and what would that work accomplish? The Institute of War wasn't good for creating lore about anything in Runeterra other than the Institute of War. Without the Institute of War, lore can begin to explore new stories. Instead of spending time trying to integrate limits into the Institute of War, the lore team has been writing stories about Shurima and about the Harrowing. I personally prefer getting lore with content as opposed to lore that needs to be written to justify other lore.

Sneak DogNov 18, 20147 votes

The institute has an immense impact on Runeterra. So do Demacia and Noxus. The institute does not prevent you from telling stories about Shurima in any way.

delonixNov 18, 2014

It might not directly prevent the lore team from writing stories about Shurima, but without the retcon, all of those stories would end up being stories about the Institute of War. The retcon gave the lore team more freedom to write about other things.

Sneak DogNov 18, 20145 votes

Riven is a story that is all about Noxus and Riven that did not end up being a story about the institute. It incorporates it, sure, but that is because the institute is a part of the premise of the lore.

Everything will incorporate it, just as the new lore will incorporate something to make the character matter in the new lore. Why do you think all the champions are nicely being associated with all the city-states all of a sudden, either in a friendly or a hostile way? The new lore is also restrictive, or else Trundle didn't need retconning, but he could've simply gotten a chapter two in his story where he goes after the origin of the curse.

delonixNov 18, 20141 votes

Riven's lore is one of my favorites, but like many of the other champion lores, it can serve as an example of why the retcon was good for lore. There is no reason for Riven to join the League of Legends. In fact, there's a pretty strong reason why she should not join the League of Legends. Noxus thinks she is dead, and she is a witness to some pretty serious war crimes. Hanging out at the Runeterran United Nations seems like it would just make her a target for Noxus' many assassins.

As long as the Institute of War was canon, incredible stories like Riven's had to be shoehorned into what was becoming a pretty formulaic ending. In the Journal of Justice, Riven herself says she doesn't know why she joined the League.

I don't think the new lore is artificially restrictive in the way the Institute of War was. Most people both within Runeterra and in the real world are aligned with different factions to one degree or another.

Trundle's rework happened long before the retcon. The problem with Trundle was that his story really ended with him joining the League of Legends. He wasn't a big fan of his own tribe, and he had no other connections to anything in Runeterra. When he joins the League, he decides to keep the curse as a way of punishing his tribe, so there is no reason for him to "go after the origin of the curse." There's also no real reason for him to stay and fight in the League, but he does it anyway.

Earl EulrichNov 18, 20146 votes

Riven's lore is one of my favorites, but like many of the other champion lores, it can serve as an example of why the retcon was good for lore. There is no reason for Riven to join the League of Legends. In fact, there's a pretty strong reason why she should not join the League of Legends. Noxus thinks she is dead, and she is a witness to some pretty serious war crimes. Hanging out at the Runeterran United Nations seems like it would just make her a target for Noxus' many assassins.

On the contrary...the IoW is the one place in all of Runeterra where Riven can criticise Noxus openly in front of a broader public and will still be fairly save from Nosus Grasp, protected by the Institute itself. Without the IoW there´s a lot less she can do on her own agenda (the options are pretty much...flee to demacia or Ionia and hope they´ll take her into shelter instead of executing her anyway/ fight a sort of Guerilla War/ go into hiding forever (not really much of a story). These options still exist with the IoW in Place, but the IoW itself also offers Riven the chance to be her own master aswell, which is probably what she highly prefers to pledging alliance to yet another state that will betray her in the end. It´s not hindering her Story, it´s enhancing it.

LeeDarkNov 19, 20144 votes

No, a magical equivalent of a nuclear disarmament treaty would not stop all wars. You'd have city-states trying to bend the rules as much as possible. You'd have several city-states trying to build up secret supplies of forbidden magic, "just in case." Even a magical equivalent of the United Nations would not stop all wars. There would be politics and parliamentary procedural tricks.

Hell, Noxus attacked Ionia, and there were SEVERAL battles fought before the Institute stepped in and settled the matter with a match.

Insanity KiwiNov 18, 20141 votes

err delonix I'm pretty sure the league was just the magical equivalent of nuclear disarmament treaties, they didn't stop all wars

and there are many ways to get rid of the summoners without having to retcon them, if you still wanted to get rid of them

Untrue, the League of Legends got in the face of pretty much everything. Kaladama was stopped even though it was fought by nothing other than the sword and other physical weapons. No magic or chemicals.

The retcon also allows rivalries to play out. I mean what the fuck is Warwick is supposed to do if he's told "Sorry, you can't get Soraka's heart." Graves can actually manhunt TF, etc etc.

I don't necessarily support the retcon, but I understand Riot's reasons.

Earl EulrichNov 18, 20145 votes

The retcon also allows rivalries to play out. I mean what the fuck is Warwick is supposed to do if he's told "Sorry, you can't get Soraka's heart." Graves can actually manhunt TF, etc etc.

Well...now it´s "Sorry WW, you canßt get Sorakas heart...there are still people playing her - it would cost us precious dollars to tell them their "main-champ" is dead and gone and there won´t be any stories about her anymore". This just doesn´t work for a Moba...in a classical RPG or MMO you can have some important Charackters die - because even though they may be popular, they are all NPCs (ok, in some very brave games you can even play a certain Char till he dies and then progress the story from another PoV). That means you´ll never End up playing a Character that is supposed to be gone, as this would create a massive conflict to immersion.

CupcakeTrapNov 18, 20146 votes

If Riot ever decides to off a Champion as an example of "how flexible we can be now that lore and gameplay have nothing to do with each other", that will to me be the final sign that they've completely lost it.

I think they've been critically out of touch with the lore community for a long time. Even I have a hard time imagining they'd go this far…but I can imagine it. The more they act like they're writing some grandiose fantasy novel series instead of writing a story for a game, the more plausible it gets that they'd do something insane like that.

Chromatic EagleNov 17, 20149 votes

The summoners were powerful. That was the point of the League. Helping to control the use of their magic before they ruin the world further. On top of that, they were able to capture several champions and summon them from other worlds.

All of that didn't make them unbeatable however. It didn't give them godly vision on everyone despite their judgments. There were several ways Riot could've nerfed the summoners. They were already trying to retcon some characters to be born on Rumeterra before the massive retcon.

delonixNov 17, 20147 votes

The problem with summoners wasn't that they were "OP" and had to be removed for balance reasons. They were too powerful because they could solve problems easily. Lore is basically just stories, and stories need conflict. When you have a group of wizards powerful enough to do stuff like containing Fiddlesticks or turning a tree into a conscious being as an unintended side effect, it becomes very difficult to write stories that don't end suddenly with "because magic." On top of this, the Institute of War is designed to prevent any conflict outside of the League of Legends. There's a lot of great lore that comes out of the wars between Noxus and Demacia, and specifically from the Noxian invasion of Ionia. Anything like this is now impossible, because all outside conflicts are just transferred into the League of Legends to be settled.

There are only so many ways to generate new champions in a world like this. Eventually it starts to get weird. Azir had to be resurrected, Gnar was frozen in a block of ice for centuries, Vel'koz came from the void, eventually there won't be anywhere original for champs to mysteriously appear from. The champs that are less mysterious are equally problematic. What was Braum doing between the creation of the League and his joining it? Herding sheep? Herding poros?

Getting rid of the summoners forces the champions in the League of Legends, as well as all of the other inhabitants of Runeterra, to solve problems on their own. Sivir doesn't work for a bunch of wizards anymore, so she has to accept contracts to guide rich Noxians into Shurima so she has money to buy food. Cait and Vi have to team up to catch Jinx and send her to Piltover prison instead of having the summoners just magic her away. Kalista can interact with other champions outside of the league without the summoners stepping in to preserve complete peace.

I hope that helps give some context for the lore change, as I understand it.

FinnicalNov 17, 201419 votes

They were too powerful because they could solve problems easily.

Many of the events you referred to involved enormous loss of life on the summoners side. Conflicts were rarely solved easily. In addition while the Institute of War was a powerful organization they were not omnicient, there is no reason to think conflict could not occur where they couldn't see it or reach it. The retcon was not necessary, it was just lazy.

It would have been simple to design a powerful and interesting event that either damaged or removed the institute. i.e. Malzahar's prophecies come true, a void rift opens right in the middle of a sensitive part of the institute. It is torn apart from the inside, innumerable casualties and property damage.

CupcakeTrapNov 17, 20148 votes

It is torn apart from the inside, innumerable casualties and property damage.

You would also need a political dimension. Like I've written elsewhere, the League is built on consensus more than it's built on stone foundations; if someone blew up the League tomorrow, but the nations of Valoran still believed in its mission, they'd rebuild it. (Temporarily replacing the Fields with a law court or something.) It's sort of like how, to use an example I've used previously, blowing up the Supreme Court wouldn't destroy the judicial branch of the United States; they'd meet in office space until they fixed the building. What would destroy the legitimacy of the Supreme Court would be them issuing a ruling that nobody will follow.

Otherwise, fully agree. And sure, physically destroying the League might be a catalyst for that sort of event.

Sneak DogNov 17, 201415 votes

The institute was a union of many different summoners from different nations and backgrounds. so it was created with a very simple and generally agreed upon goal: prevent Runeterra from being torn apart by unchecked use of magic. To do this, they resolve all major political conflict on the fields of justice rather than on a battlefield.

This means that they don't care how evil a champion is, like Veigar. They don't care about the wrongs champions have done, like Jinx. They can't, because caring would mean possibly angering a partition of their own summoners that disagree. Even worse if it would anger Demacia or Noxus, the institute needs those two city-states or their support would crumble. The IoW was perfect for telling all kinds of stories about manipulation and intrigue.

Take the void for example. It seems to be all about slowly corrupting summoners to make them summon more voidborn into Runeterra. To further this goal, the current voidborn tolerate being kept in the institute. Don't even think Cho'Gath is being kept there against his will.

"Woe betides the day when Cho'Gath grows weary of the League."

Fiddlesticks kind of claimed a room for himself in the institute where he is content waiting for his time.

The power of summoners is often exaggerated. They didn't ever control champions, they don't often contain them. They merge minds with champions and they are often given the illusion of containing a champion (Only Brand/Nocturne/Renekton are truely contained I believe). Even then I'd be all for simply reducing the power level of a summoner a bit. That wouldn't cause much of a problem with anyone I'd imagine.

Open wars on the contrary were very difficult with the IoW. Skirmishes could happen, especially if no magic was no involved, but anything too large would be frowned upon. Without institute however, there'd just be wars. But this is a moba, why would anyone care about a war between thousands of faceless soldiers if not for the one to eight champions that walk among them?

A battlefield is simply another backdrop for champions to do their thing in. Just as Piltover shows of Caitlyn, Vi and Jinx, as the Noxus-Ionia war shows of Riven and as the institute shows of Jax. Is it worth showing your fanbase that you're willing to retcon the entire foundation of your lore seemingly on a whim simply to add another background to the mix?

CupcakeTrapNov 17, 201410 votes

Open wars on the contrary were very difficult with the IoW. Skirmishes could happen, especially if no magic was no involved, but anything too large would be frowned upon. Without institute however, there'd just be wars. But this is a moba, why would anyone care about a war between thousands of faceless soldiers if not for the one to eight champions that walk among them?

Very well said. This is key.

delonixNov 17, 20143 votes

Your post actually highlights some of the problems with the Institute of War. You argue that summoners' power is exaggerated, along the lines of OJ191's argument:

err delonix I'm pretty sure the league was just the magical equivalent of nuclear disarmament treaties, they didn't stop all wars

However, you also say that somehow the summoners are able to contain an Ascended and a living nightmare and prevent large wars.

The raw magical power of the Institute of War doesn't seem to actually have limits. The Institute of War was, after all, created not to simply stop wars, but to stop the magical corruption which was a byproduct of the wars, and which was literally tearing the world apart. Given that there is no real limit to what magic can do, what it actually does in the lore is completely arbitrary and therefore very frustrating for people looking for thoughtful, well-written lore.

On a side note, I don't think the retcon was to "add another background to the mix." Riot seems to like the background material they already have in the cities of Runeterra. I think it's more likely that the retcon was to allow the stories in these cities to unfold naturally instead of being stilted by the Institute of War.

Sneak DogNov 17, 20148 votes

However, you also say that somehow the summoners are able to contain an Ascended and a living nightmare and prevent large wars.

Renekton was contained with help of Nasus, but contained nevertheless. Nocturne is a strange being. Always disagreed with these imprisoned champions anyway. Didn't need the removal of the IoW for them to be fre. I can imagine Brand seeking refuge at the Iow and Nocturne being summoned by only the most daring of summoners. I'm no writer.

Preventing large wars has little to do with power and everything to do with politics.

The raw magical power was up to the writers. As I said before, I don't think anyone would've minded a nerf here anyway. Not really relevant for this discussion?

The stories in the cities unfold naturally one way or another. The institute doesn't stilt natural growth. It just alters it, significantly. It generates stories of intrigue, politics and small-scale skirmishes instead of large-scale war and direct clashes.

I could imagine if there wasn't a settled lore yet that you'd pick a world without IoW over one with, depends on what you are comfortable with writing as writer, but I don't think it is worth changing now and showing your fans you're willing to bluntly retcon the entire foundation of the lore along with many characters (poor Trundle). I personally am unwilling to invest in a story that may be retconned again in one to five years from now.

Me For ToxicityNov 17, 20141 votes

The problem with summoners wasn't that they were "OP" and had to be removed for balance reasons. They were too powerful because they could solve problems easily. Lore is basically just stories, and stories need conflict. When you have a group of wizards powerful enough to do stuff like containing Fiddlesticks or turning a tree into a conscious being as an unintended side effect, it becomes very difficult to write stories that don't end suddenly with "because magic." On top of this, the Institute of War is designed to prevent any conflict outside of the League of Legends. There's a lot of great lore that comes out of the wars between Noxus and Demacia, and specifically from the Noxian invasion of Ionia. Anything like this is now impossible, because all outside conflicts are just transferred into the League of Legends to be settled.

There are only so many ways to generate new champions in a world like this. Eventually it starts to get weird. Azir had to be resurrected, Gnar was frozen in a block of ice for centuries, Vel'koz came from the void, eventually there won't be anywhere original for champs to mysteriously appear from. The champs that are less mysterious are equally problematic. What was Braum doing between the creation of the League and his joining it? Herding sheep? Herding poros?

Getting rid of the summoners forces the champions in the League of Legends, as well as all of the other inhabitants of Runeterra, to solve problems on their own. Sivir doesn't work for a bunch of wizards anymore, so she has to accept contracts to guide rich Noxians into Shurima so she has money to buy food. Cait and Vi have to team up to catch Jinx and send her to Piltover prison instead of having the summoners just magic her away. Kalista can interact with other champions outside of the league without the summoners stepping in to preserve complete peace.

I hope that helps give some context for the lore change, as I understand it.

Wow, look, a cogent and sound analysis is downvoted by kids who don't even read that want basement level fanfic lore.

Don't waste your time with the plebes. They are literally too stupid to argue with.

The Lewd OneNov 17, 20147 votes

Wow, look, a short message trying to debunk the fact that a downvote can simply mean "I disagree with your opinion" when every comment below it offers relatively sound rebuttals with little to no flame, rage or salt, common factors in the league community.

If we are stupid, enlighten us. Why are our questions and responses to what we think are questionable decisions on Riot's part stupid?

Sneak DogNov 17, 20144 votes

I think downvotes should be for bad posts. If you disagree, why not just not vote at all? It will generate more discussion that way. I disagreed with him, responded as such and didn't downvote him. I've systematically upvoted people I disagreed with because they had a good post with good argumentation.

PryotraNov 17, 20144 votes

The main problem here is that your argument misunderstands lore.

The league didn't contain Fiddles, he just kinda claimed that room and they hope he never gets bored of it. They didn't accidently create a treant, Maokai came to be because they were fighting with magic in a forest where Zaun had been dumping magical waste. It was effectively like fighting with flamethrowers over rivers filled with oil, and getting surprised by the raw amount of fire.

All those champion origins came post retcon. This is all the oddities without a league, and the eventual drying up of the creativity well is always a problem, no matter your foundation.

Thing is, nothing prevented these champions from interacting with each other without the league. They never specifically pay champions, nor do they apprehend petty criminals like jinx or shaco. The IoW was the Runeterra equivilant of the United Nations, with champions settling disputes on the battle field.

delonixNov 18, 2014

I'm not sure why you think my argument misunderstands lore.

The League did seal all of the exits from Fiddlestick's chamber, but you may be right that he could leave if he wanted to. I'm pretty sure "fighting with magic...and getting surprised by the raw amount of fire" is a description of the accidental creation of a treant. Maokai was certainly created by the actions of summoners, and it wasn't intentional.

I think you mean pre retcon here, but then you lose me a little bit. I agree there is no source of infinite good lore, but Riot identified the Institute of War as specifically and systematically problematic for writing new lore. The retcon isn't about making a world perfect for lore-writing, it's about getting rid of a major contrivance.

I agree, nothing prevented champions from interacting with each other outside of the league, but before the retcon the Institute of War was like the heart of the lore. If the Institute was a magical United Nations, why does anything that happens outside of the Institute matter?

PryotraNov 18, 20146 votes

The League did seal all of the exits from Fiddlestick's chamber, but you may be right that he could leave if he wanted to. I'm pretty sure "fighting with magic...and getting surprised by the raw amount of fire" is a description of the accidental creation of a treant. Maokai was certainly created by the actions of summoners, and it wasn't intentional.

Fiddles was ripped from another world. While anyone who approached him was consumed by fear and crows, those that kept their distance were unharmed. Yes, the league set up barricades, but honestly he never moved from his initial summoned spot. They prayed they could hold him, but were grateful he never challenged their setups.

Maokai, if you bothered to read the JoJ back before it was removed, was certainly birthed by overuse of magic, but it never specified that summoning magic was solely to blame. Rather, it was insinuated that the raw amount of magic, from the rune wars to the summoners to the champions themselves, was to blame. Also, the reason it erupted on TT and not on SR was largely attributed to the fact that Zaun had been dumping toxic waste there.

Thing is, their logic of "SUMMONERS OP" was pretty poorly explained, and quite honestly doesn't hold up for the entire concept of the league getting removed. You could just as easily removed the summoners, and simply had the champions represent their chosen side of every issue for the IoW. Even the one-offs like Nami could temporarily side with a certain cause for their own gain, or like cho for their own amusement. Certain champions would still need rewriting, but alot of those simply need it regardless.

As for why would anything else matter, I could make the same statement for the current lore. Nothing ever really happens, outside of another "A CHALLENGER APPROACHES" scenario. Even then, it's simply them appearing, and regardless of how you look at it, still effectively doesn't make anything happen.

Azir raises his kingdom and... nothing. Noxus doesn't care. Demacia doesn't care. No one but Azir cares. Xerath gets free, and... nothing. He doesn't even add anything to the landscape. The game is called "League of Legends". One would assume that everything in said universe would revolve around said league, and it's inhabitants, and how they interact with one another.

Now, there is hardly any real interaction. I mean, Azir saved Sivir's life and... nothing changes. She goes right back to her thing and Azir doesn't even care. I don't know about you, but if I brought someone back from the edge, I would at the very least feel responsible for them to an extent. If my life got saved, I would feel some slight sense of owing them for my life. But even that fails to ever cross into lore.

In the old league, the little interactions between champions stood side by side next to the major events. For example, blitz effectively made KatxGaren cannon with his matchmaker. This was equally important as all of Kalamanda, as it was Blitzcrank trying to understand love. And this was something that stood out, even if it was just something that blitz used the one time, it had interesting side effects between other champions and even a certain summoner.

At the end of the day, the current lore fails to prove its worth, as well as fails to prove why the old lore needed to go. Nothing the new lore has done would have been invalidated by the existance of an IoW. While one could argue the semantics on Summoner Power level, you would only need to change very few things and keep the league to make it work (specifically, they would need to fix other worldly champions like Kayle/Morg, Old Nasus, even Nocturne to an extent.)

delonixNov 18, 2014

I agree, there were other ways to change the lore, and a retcon was not intrinsically necessary. The details of the Institute of War weren't even really the problem though, it was the core concept. Even if you replaced it with a void invasion or whatever else, you would run into the same problem. A central plot point is necessary for a single story, and it's good for multiple stories, but eventually it becomes a constraint, rather than a starting point.

Also, you should probably wait a while before saying there isn't enough lore post-retcon. League of Legends was released in 2009, so it took them five years to build up the lore that existed before the retcon. I feel that we've gotten a lot of lore stuff since the retcon, especially considering how dead lore was pre retcon.

PryotraNov 18, 20146 votes

It's only a constraint if you make it a constraint. There were plenty of ways to have side stories that meant something, like Shaco's interview or the airship race between Zaun and Piltover. There were lots of things that didn't involve the IoW or summoners, and still provided good plot points and even conflict. There was the Struggle between Malzahar and Kassadin, where Kass ended up losing his daughter to the void. There was also the incident between Karthus and and the two void affected humans, and while the league did end up stepping in, that could have easily been reworded that the IoW got help from other champions to subdue the two. Karthus was actually dead when the IoW arrived, but he was kinda undead to begin with so it wasn't really too big an issue.

As far as lore in concerned, the lions share of the old lore came from the first 2-3 years. The last 2 years held almost no lore updates outside of champions entering the game. While I get that it will take a while to get to that level again, it should not take 5 years. It should take maybe one or two, considering the champions aren't being fully rewritten from scratch, and have established character traits. Remember, the old lore had updates almost every 2-3 weeks, sometimes more often. We certainly aren't getting that.

Winged HussarsNov 17, 20143 votes

Let me put it this way. The summoners WOULDN'T have been a problem if they were treated consistently from the start, but they suffered from years of additions without much forethought. One problem is power scales. Summoners control magic that could destroy the world. Kayle and Morgana, both hyper-powerful immortal beings could not stand against summoner magic. LeBlanc and Lee Sin could? Nocturne could be controlled, Fiddlesticks and Mordekaiser could do what they want?

Yes, you could argue that changes could make it more consistent, but they would be systemic changes pretty much as large as the retcon.

Volt CruelerzNov 17, 20142 votes

Simply put, think of League as a franchise. I recently met with a few rioters and among other things, they placed HEAVY emphasis on the "s" in Riot Games. Players are attached to the champions, not the actual League of Legends entity within the lore. Consider the amount of power the Summoners have. At one point, they froze time across an entire battlefield for what was it, a week? Lee Sin accidentally obliterated a town. For the sake of turning league into a franchise, getting rid of the lore was necessary.

That said, the way they did it is... problematic... First off, Azir, Xerath, Syndra, and Veigar ought to be near-omnipotent now. At least before you could make the argument that the League was inhibiting their true power, but now you've got beings that built a city within seconds, destroyed an entire civilization within an instant, once made a castle float on a whim, and unstoppably grows in power, all of which are now uninhibited (aside from Xerath). The lore on all those champions is rather broken right now.

EDIT: how is this so downvoted? All I said was that they seem to want to make a franchise and getting rid of summoners gives them more freedom and then saying they didn't do it the right way, removing the only justification for why some champions' power-level in-game doesn't match up with their power in the lore.

CupcakeTrapNov 17, 20148 votes

First off, Azir, Xerath, Syndra, and Veigar ought to be near-omnipotent now. At least before you could make the argument that the League was inhibiting their true power,

I disagree with your characterization. Those Champions came to the League to amplify their power and exploit it. (Well, partial exception in Azir; most likely, the reason he'd come to the League would be to assert Shurima's right to self-determination, before Noxus comes in and kicks the tar out of them so they can take their ancient artifacts and such.) The League is a power-play for them, not a nerf.

Xerath: He wants to break out of his (literal) shackles, using the League's magic. Why let him in? Some factions got a little greedy and were willing to sponsor his application in order to get a more powerful mage (who owed them favors) on the Fields.
Syndra: She's an ultra-powerful mage who wants to break Ionia and realize her potential. A magical battleground where she gets to train against all the best mages in Valoran, and which incidentally is also a political nexus on which Ionia greatly depends, sounds appealing to me.
Veigar: He's either just totally insane and wants to kill all day because he wants to kill all day, or he's gathering favors and power so that when Noxus needs the League he can arrange for it to get the backstabbing it deserves for locking him up.

Volt CruelerzNov 18, 20141 votes

I don't disagree with any of what you said about their reasons for joining the League. That doesn't change the fact that Syndra (according to her lore) is powerful enough to throw all of Summoner's Rift at you, yet the biggest thing she can throw in-game is blue buff, not to mention that for her most basic ability, she spawns a black hole. That doesn't change the fact that Azir summoned an army of thousands of sand soldiers in seconds yet in-game he gets one every what, 8 seconds?

Yes, they used the league for their own purposes. I'm saying though that one could have made the argument that the League put restrictions on their power to prevent them from displaying their true strength and insta-winning every match (all of which are sufficiently powerful to do that if their in-game power matched up with their lore power). Otherwise, there's no justification for why they're so much weaker in game than they are in the lore.

CupcakeTrapNov 18, 20149 votes

I don't disagree with any of what you said about their reasons for joining the League. That doesn't change the fact that Syndra (according to her lore) is powerful enough to throw all of Summoner's Rift at you, yet the biggest thing she can throw in-game is blue buff,

Syndra blowing stuff up like that was surely not something she can do casually or regularly, or else there are big problems with or without a League.

not to mention that for her most basic ability, she spawns a black hole.

I don't think that's meant to be an actual black hole, or again, serious problems. I mean, come on. This is League of Legends. It's all magic. Let's not pretend to be too certain about precisely how it all works.

That doesn't change the fact that Azir summoned an army of thousands of sand soldiers in seconds yet in-game he gets one every what, 8 seconds?

It's a translation convention. "You can see Luke's head bounce back up in Cloud City when he duels Vader. WHY WAS THERE A TRAMPOLINE IN CLOUD CITY!?" Nobody (sane) is asking that ability cooldowns be precisely the same in the game as in the lore. I'd refer to the New Dawn cinematic; Garen doesn't literally whirl around like a top, but he does have a rather distinctive whirl-slash move. That seems like a pretty fair translation.

Yes, they used the league for their own purposes. I'm saying though that one could have made the argument that the League put restrictions on their power to prevent them from displaying their true strength and insta-winning every match (all of which are sufficiently powerful to do that if their in-game power matched up with their lore power). Otherwise, there's no justification for why they're so much weaker in game than they are in the lore.

Maaaagiiiiiiiic.

Champions are magically empowered individuals. They're fighting on a magical arena that brings people back to life when they get killed. There's a lot of stuff going on there. A bit of power-scaling isn't hard to imagine.

Even without that, is it that hard to imagine that Champions have comparable power levels? What makes someone a Champion? Do they get an infusion of positive planar energy or something? Maybe it comes in the same typical "dose". Maybe Miss Fortune and Garen and Viktor just happen to have the same dose of "hero power" from the cosmos, but express it differently: MF can shoot with insane accuracy, Garen can strut around in half a ton of armor, Viktor has death rays.