When you're getting questioned by his pick-rate being high, despite being "weak".
If that's the case, go play Karthus or Sejuani jungle, they suck a lot more. They should be your next favorite.
GULAG 4 U25 votesA main plays the champion with no regard to its state lol.
MrHaZeYo21 votesHe's fun.
BeatzBoyFTW7 votesSejuani's fun too. No one can beat a giant AoE team-stun with excellent positioning.
MrHaZeYo5 votesWell I mean Lee Sin can has a AoE knock up that deals a crap load of damage lol.
BeatzBoyFTW16 votesAnd you guys stated he's still weak because......?
MrHaZeYo3 votesLee Sin has a massive trade off.
If he builds full damage he will essentially fall off late If he builds full tank he won't do much damage If he builds the standard bruiser he won't be able to combo for as much or take as much damage.
A lot of Lee's usefulness is in his mobility and the plays he can make with that, if your not good at Lee he isn't a good champ. If you're good with Lee you can overcome his weaknesses and help your team carry a game.
Lee excels at the early game like Elise but without a proper team behind them they fall off late compared to a lot of junglers. I even feel like Kha'zix is kind of in the same boat, just not as bad.
BeatzBoyFTW4 votesProblem is that he's fine to build AD/HP bruiser build, due to the fact that his Q deals %HP damage, & his W having excessive Lifesteal & Spellvamp to sustain/regain hp in the jungle. He also has too many escapes with his Q & W, and his ult being a "pls fk off" type of ability.
Currently, despite the ult nerfs, his QRQ or RQQ combo is still a high nuisance to this day. His ult still deserves to have more of its damage being cut off, especially when it also does %Hp damage by the kicked target to his own teammates. It's probably either this, or his Q needs some nerfs or convert it to flat damage.
Avienal1 votesProblem is that he's fine to build AD/HP bruiser build, due to the fact that his Q deals %HP damage, & his W having excessive Lifesteal & Spellvamp to sustain/regain hp in the jungle. He also has too many escapes with his Q & W, and his ult being a "pls fk off" type of ability.
Currently, despite the ult nerfs, his QRQ or RQQ combo is still a high nuisance to this day. His ult still deserves to have more of its damage being cut off, especially when it also does %Hp damage by the kicked target to his own teammates. It's probably either this, or his Q needs some nerfs or convert it to flat damage.
Funny how no one notices amongst many things one of the main culprits to alot of these cheeser builds is 
.
been using it for a while as a go to damage item in his tank builds to just use his ability spam and his attack speed boost on his autos thru his passive to pull off plenty of armor shred so his combo spam plus the mix between physical and magic damage on some of his abilities is going to whombo a target with ease.
hell even 
are all amongst the prime culprits in lethality builds, though Jhin ain't a main culprit in abuse, it hasn't stop him from being converted to that BS'ery that all started because Lucian started having a 'Ghost blade & Black cleaver shred build' and then Miss fortune followed up to 'act as a counter, but became just as scummy'.
Plenty of tanks grab and some being annoyingly oppressive like 
Hell i've seen a few builds where 
op for over 
just because of the ridiculous'ness on its shred.
If i had to list the champions who currently are the middle'fingers of each lane it would currently be:
Mid- 
Top- , , 
Jungle- 
Support- 
(With 
cause 'fk' the defensive stats or what not when you can easily run around everywhere and hook harass the fk at every enemy champion like your a pervert trying to grab every single panty under a skirt off of a girl's rear out in public and wearing them proudly on your head like its a achievement, when its really just plain disgusting at what your doing).
ADC- (both with Lethality builds that make 
who used to be one broken as heck engager champion champion with a 'regular' build, look like a piece of garbage since MF and Lucian make use of their range and rapid fire autos and easy disengages in the form of a field slow and a 'low cooldown dash' that make them get plenty of safety and Rs that let them disintegrate targets since they can rapidly get the full black cleaver stack with just the R's multi-hit alone).
Nerf , nerf and NERF Lethality, then im sure we'll get on the right track to cutting down on the snowball meta currently going on.
[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]
xevi3 votesCouple of things.
and 
. was recently changed to give less AD and more health and no longer builds from 
.I don't personally think needs nerfs and using his high 32% playrate to justify that is just a terrble idea. also has a 32% playrate with a slightly higher winrate so should we be looking to nerf that? Ever thought that these champions are fun to play a, thus, will attract a lot of players?
Additionally, 's top builds DO NOT INCLUDE ANY LETHALITY ITEMS AT ALL.
For reference, http://na.op.gg/champion/lucian/statistics/adc.
As for the other part of your post, isn't the middle finger of midlane anymore after the nerfs. I don't think any champion in the midlane is a huge fuck you currently. Sure, is probably the most annoying, but it's not like he is completely unbeatable.
Toplane , , and are definitely not the middle fingers of top lane. Maybe since he's hard to recover from if you fall behind against him.
As for jungle, I would also include 
because of his ranged AoE clear + tankiness + being able to knockback the monsters. He's one of the few junglers that can solo clear without smite or pots and end with full health. In fact he may be the only one. is a pretty justified pick but he's still very feast or famine, and in my experience if he isn't 3/0 by the 8 minute mark then the game is free for whoever doesn't have the on his/her team.
Finally, and . I'd argue that these champs are in no way huge "fuck yous" . lacks any real mobility (the don't get touched by an enemy movespeed isn't really enough) and she makes herself stationary with her ult which is either a "get the fuck out of there" or "get the fuck on top her" type of deal. Both of which are pretty easy. Additionally her only form of decent poke in lane is her q which pretty much means don't stand behind a dying ally minion and just requires a small bit of attention to the minions to avoid getting chunked.
I must say I haven't played much against him and while he's definitely strong early he isn't oppressive enough to be listed as a "fuck you".
You listed all hook supports. There are huge downtimes in lane between there hooks so if they miss you can punish pretty hard. - that is if you're not already poking them down from the safety of your minion wave.
Now I do understand that this is your personal list but from an analytical standpoint none of these champs seem like huge "fuck yous" to other champs of the same lane with the exception of maybe (just maybe) , , and
IcyPepper37 votesIf he builds full damage he will essentially fall off late If he builds full tank he won't do much damage
Whoa I thought the argument was he fell off late because he doesn't usually build much damage.
200% bonus AD damage on your low-cooldown ultimate is NOT "falling off late-game." That's an assassin.
ChaosThief3 votesWell, on the few times I have played lee sin (mostly in featured modes, so I'm not much of a judge...)
If you build full assassin, you're surprisingly easy to deal with.
Despite his holy hell ratios, you really don't have any form of defensive steroid that'll keep you safe from two or more DPS champions, or a tank and a DPS, etc. You're always targetable, always have a chance of getting CC'd through a combo, so if you go full damage lee sin, the moment you go in is the moment that you either die or get maybe one kill before dying (depends on the fight.)
In a 1 on 1 fight, yeah, good luck, but if lee's in a group fight he's too easy to pick off from my personal experiences.
Votable Jester1 votesThat's true, but he only really needs 1.5 offensive items to 100-0 most squishy champions.
ChaosThief1 votesYou'd actually be surprised. When they build a single defensive item you easily need another or two more to compensate (something like GA is also really good at screwing with you)
crippler383 votesyou know it always made me wonder about ad ratios when people point out there are high ones on abilities.
I don't know lee sin's ability damages by heart but just pointing out the ultimate having a 200% scaling just makes me think his ult has a little less than 2 auto attacks thrown onto its base damage.
EDIT: the point I was attempting to make is that you need high scalings on a few abilities to be scary don't you? Otherwise if they build some defense it'll make it hard for you to oneshot the adc in which case they can dps and heal up, or is that wrong?
Papa Andrei1 votes600 damage plus about 300-400 ad so around 1k damage instantly, with potentially hitting the entire enemy team or more than a few of them. Thats why High AD ratios suck, cause it means that the time those two aa would have been rquired to do damage, is now instant.
crippler382 votesk so it about half hits people if it went in as true damage.
IcyPepper1 votesSounds like an assassin design to me.
Not that all assassins are bad at teamfights, but they excel taking out single targets.
I mean, Lee Sin doesn't look like much of an assassin tbh, but if you're building full damage and actually dealing damage and not dying, you're going to be dealing damage.
ChaosThief1 votesYeah, it feels entirely like an assassin, except with less escapes and more vulnerability.
Talon has his ult invisibility, kha'zix has invis bursts and his reset leap, fizz has his E, lee? He has a small shield and some bonus lifesteal/spellvamp, and it's also a lot easier to interrupt him and kill him that the other assassins.
MrHaZeYo2 votesThe reason lee builds like a bruiser instead of a Assassin is because that damage he does falls off.
If he goes glass cannon he'd be dead before his Q connected half the time late game vs a Burst oriented champion.
Late game if you have 1 Armor Item he can no longer 1 spell rotate you to death.
IcyPepper1 votesLate game if you have 1 Armor Item he can no longer 1 spell rotate you to death.
Oh no, an assassin can't 100-0 you if you build an armor item? That's... true for almost all AD assassins, dude.
I just looked at Lee Sin's numbers. In a single rotation, he has the scalings to be an AD assassin. He's not "weak" in that regard.
If he goes glass cannon he'd be dead before his Q connected half the time late game vs a Burst oriented champion.
I thought the main combo for assassin Lee Sin was to W-R-Q-Q to take advantage of the root/stun thingy on his ultimate (despite the fact that you can flash for some reason but they can't).
MrHaZeYo1 votesYa but late game when your all grouped up and he Safeguards in your teams face he'll be CC'd before he ults and dead before he becomes uncc'd
IcyPepper1 votesAnd this makes him different than any other assassin because...?
Sure, there's exceptions, but not every champion has a built-in spellshield. But AD assassins in particular can build one...
he Safeguards in your teams face
Okay, that is not a good example. That's just being a dumbass. You either make picks or pinsir the enemy with an assassin in a teamfight, or stick solely to a 1v1. The situation you mentioned with a glass cannon, I've assumed you were talking 1v1, not a teamfight because of the "a' subject indicator. But safeguarding in front of the entire enemy team? Hell no. You pinsir from behind by using your Q and deleting the ADC with a full combo once you've gotten the opportunity, or you bide your team in a teamfight and make the right pick at the right time.
Or you can avoid teamfights entirely by making picks. That's also a possibility.
He doesn't magically play all that different than other AD assassins when he's building like one. If you use your mobility and cc options willy-nilly, you're going to be punished for it. That's not the champion falling off. Come on dude, this is basic.
MrHaZeYo1 votesAlright, I'll try to explain it the way I understand it.
Lee Sin (or Lee Singa if you prefer), thrives early and mid game because he can pull off crazy stunts and dives into the enemy team to either assassinate a target and escape, or kick that target out of his team and escape. At this stage his damage and surviability is such that he can usually pull off stuff like that and live.
Late game, if Lee Sin tries to do a crazy dive into the enemy team (assuming they aren't super far behind) he tends to die before he can pull off his stunt as he always initiates ahead of his team (unless you have a Malphite or something) so he has to build tanky in order to live long enough to survive a lategame Enemy ADC or Mage bursting him into dirt while the support has him CC'd (full AD Lee Sin is amazingly squishy and will die in a 1.5 second stun or root before he even has a chance to flash away).
If he builds tanky to survive his dive, he no longer does the LEE SINGA type damage that made him so scary early/mid game and is better off peeling for his carry then trying to assassinate someone (since he no longer has the damage to do so anyway).
In a full teamfight, it's really tough to sneak a Q onto a squishy through a frontline, so you generally have to resort to going for an Insec or peeling.
Even if you do hit a Q onto a carry, you won't have the damage to kill him before getting peeled off or simply killed, unless you went full damage lee. And if you went full damage lee, you HAVE to find a way to sneak around and instakill a squishy, or you're pretty much useless.
Another factor is that most (not all) champions with a relatively low cool-down shield perform better in skirmishes than in full teamfights. In a small skirmish, you tend to take less burst damage overall, so you can generally go through a few uses of your shield in a single fight. In a teamfight, it's very easy to get bursted down very quickly, so you don't really get to keep cycling your shield up for free health. In a 1v1 or 2v2, a champion like Riven can actually be fairly tanky, due to her low cooldown shield. In a 5v5, though? If she gets caught, she's going to evaporate.
Lee CAN circumstantially have good teamfighting, if he manages to hit a great ult onto 3-5 people, but it's tough to do and you need some luck. In comparison, someone like Fiddlesticks or Amumu in a lategame teamfight...press R and dump on everything.
Sammystorm2 votesYour argument is really bad. It is kind of silly. Saying arbitrarily that sejuani is fun for most people even though the numbers don't support that. The reason she got nerfed is because she was just very very strong because of numbers. So people were playing her because she had good numbers. A lot of people play Lee Sin because he is fun to them. Nerfing a champ because of their numbers is a good nerf. Nerfing a champ because there play rate is not a good policy.
Demens Astrum2 votesSo u decide now for people who is fun? Sej is boring as hell. Karthus the same. For me Lee is fun because he jumps arount and takes some skill to play.
Thefrostyviking2 votesSejuani's fun too. No one can beat a giant AoE team-stun with excellent positioning.
Altho Seju is extremely linear, something that Riot themselves mentioned when they confirmed her rework. Slow and plays mainly the same through the entire game and 60-80% of her entire power is based of her ultimate alone. I like her character but her kit is boring and she ramps up slowly which makes it frustrating to play against any champion with a sharp power curve, ironically this includes lee sin.
bbQsauçe12 votes[deleted]
BeatzBoyFTW3 votesBut Karthus & Sejuani are also such a bomb to play! But damn, people still wonder why both champions are still ignored til now.
Credit Ninja2 votesKarthus and Sejuani are pretty basic when it comes to champion diversity (Other than the obvious Karthus Ult). If you really think they're more fun to play, then you must find every single champion fun to play with, which we know you don't since you're bagging so hard on Lee Sin. I don't play Lee Sin like ever because I suck at him, but even I know dashing around everywhere is inherently fun.
GULAG 4 U2 votesExcept how can you prove that KT and SJ are fun?
BeatzBoyFTW2 votes
- Free cheap harass with Q, an AoE slow-wall & a global danger-free ult.
- Very beefy at mid-late game & an AoE game-changing ult.
But in the logic of League players, everything has to be about dashes this, dashes that. Even if we were to request for the nerfs on that part or other parts of his kit, Lee defenders would rush in & claims he's "weak enough" and then proceeds to spam him in every jungle games anyway.
Gregor Gysi3 votesKarthus isn't appealing because his gameplay feels very slow in general, landing his Q isn't really satisfying as hitting it doesn't have the impact that Lee Sin has. His slow isn't satisfying at all compared to jumping around and his ultimate.. Well, being safe is great in terms of strength, but taking a risk and succeeding is just infinitely more rewarding in terms of fun.
Disclaimer: this goes for most people, some enjoy playing unpopular champions because they are unpopular so they'd prefer Karthus.
bbQsauçe9 votes[deleted]
Ulquiorra9951 votesLee should be compared to Zed more in that regard. Zed is also a very fun champion with a big playmaking potential. And yet, after he got nerfed in assassin update his playerbase dropped greatly. Nothing significant about his kit changed, only his power level.
Then tell me, why are less people playing Zed now? He didn't get any less fun, he's still the same old Zed we all love (or hate depending on how much you play squishy champions). So shouldn't his player base have remained the same despite him being weaker?
And not only Zed. Lee is far from being the only fun playmaker in this game; the choice isn't Lee or nothing but Lee or Shaco, Zed, Kha, LB, Ekko, Vayne and many more. So "he is fun to play" doesn't really hold water here.
Handin Out Naps2 votesEven when Zed gets nerfed to the ground he can maintain a 5% -7% pickrate. Most champs can only hit that when they are at a 60% wr lol. Some poeple play Zed when he is strong for the elo, the other 7% keep playing him because he is enjoyable even when he is weak.
Xela Syab8 votesThey have Lee Syndrome...
Shadòw7 votesi'm not maining Lee, but that is one of the biggest BS arguments i have ever heard.
when you truly main a champ you'll also main him if he is weak.
LankPants4 votesLee Sin has never been weak. I guarantee you if he was weak his play rate would drop from 30% to 15% in a patch, down to 7% after a month then down bellow 3% within a year. Yes he'd have dedicated mains, but most of the people who play him currently only do so because he's very strong.
Shadòw4 votesthat's not even my point.
I'm just saying that the argument that people stop maining a champ in a weak state is plain BS.
Sammystorm3 votesI actually really doubt that. Lee's kit is such that even if he was substantially weaker then most other jungler's I still doubt he would drop below 10% playrate. What you are talking about is gutting lee sin and making him unplayable. Why is that a good solution.
Aeszarck1 votesLee Sin has never been weak. I guarantee you if he was weak his play rate would drop from 30% to 15% in a patch, down to 7% after a month then down bellow 3% within a year. Yes he'd have dedicated mains, but most of the people who play him currently only do so because he's very strong.
I remember when I checked OP.GG in June 2016 (I think), Lee Sin was the lowest win rate Champion in the game and he remained that way for quite awhile. (I think he was lowest winrate for at most a month and at least two weeks, but he was still very low on the winrate chart well beforehand.) He was averaging 44% winrate. Riot then buffed his safeguard.
LegendmakerGX6 votes"Take it to late game" Lee mains always say...... What if they already got their team a snow ball lead? People have to understand he falls off late game yes but to get to late game you need to survive his B.S early game of fast gank to mid game his round house kick ult, THAT IS THEN when you get to late game.
Xx420n0sc0p3sxX5 votesHes super fun. Before you bring up your idiotic sej and karthus argument like you have everytime someone else said this, high mobility and damage champs (or characters in many games) tend to be more enjoyable than slow paced ones. For example, in Smash people generally find slower characters boring. I know some people dont, but many would rather play faster paced characters. In league, assassins in general tend to be liked the most. Midlane is the most popular lane because its the fastest paced and is filled with high damage and/or mobility champs. In TF2, Spy and Scout are both very popular in pubs because of their playstyle. Sej, Karthus, Bowser, Heavy, etc... are all fun for some people, but the majority of gamers do indeed enjoy these faster paced characters, hence the popularity of them and midlane.
XinCrin4 votesI know this is a Lee Sin hate circle jerk and this will probably be down voted but here it goes:
*People play a champion they enjoy regardless of there state of balance. Its that simple. *What the hell does pick rate have to do with a champion being weak? He has a high pick rate because he has an attractive kit. Very similar to Yasuo. A champion with a high pick rate can have a low win rate. Why is that hard to understand? Look at Lucian, LeBlanc, E.T.C *Why do you think people who enjoy playing a "bad" champion would enjoy playing other bad champions?
TwinkiePro2 votesWhy are mains mains of anybody? Because they enjoy the champ, strength of the champ doesn't factor in.
If your question is why is Lee played a lot when he is claimed to be weak, that can be answered in a couple ways.
He's not necessarily weak. That's evident by his powerful early game, however, he falls off far harder than any champ I can think of, and his best chance of winning late game is giving kills to the carries, which can be difficult considering his strength in the early game and likeliness of taking kills. The last nerf on his ultimate only made his late game worse and barely affecting him early Game, making him far more reliant during that time.
Lee also has a very satisfying playstyle, much like riven, yasuo and draven. Playing correctly and executing their skills precisely give the player a higher sense of accomplishment. Their skills also meld together very well, allowing complex mechanics to shine.