Lol, chat banned
For asking to report toxic teammate. I think we have gone a little too far in this game.
For asking to report toxic teammate. I think we have gone a little too far in this game.
Why would you call for reports?
There's no benefit to doing so - because the system looks for reported games, rather than total number of reports.
There's risk in doing so - you open yourself up to counter-reports that you might not otherwise, which may edge your account closer to a review.
And, as it's a form of manipulative, bullying behavior, it's considered to be toxic, meaning those counter-reports suddenly have some validity.
So why call for reports?
"Veigar, just ignore him and report him after the match" is truly a form of bullying.
Okay, let's talk about that, then. It's not the point I was trying to make, but I can do that, too.
Intentionally ignoring people and talking around them is manipulative behavior. It's a form of "punishment" intended to bring that person in line with your desires. Whether you want them to apologize for something, stop engaging in a particular kind of behavior, or just plain leave, you are attempting to make them do what you want them to do.
Threats can be seen in the same way. Threatening to call in an authority is manipulative behavior, specifically a form of ultimatum, again with the intention to bring that person in line with your desires.
A statement like "just ignore him and report him" is a combination of these two: it's a passive form of threat, issued while specifically ignoring the person in question. It's a very common - and, when used properly, very effective - manipulation tactic, used to bully another person to make them do what you want them to do.
Of course, that only applies if the person in question can be assumed to be aware of the statement. If it was sent as a whisper/pm or through some other method where "he" would be unaware of it, these extremely negative aspects don't apply. Of course, whispers aren't picked up by the system, either.
It's extremely important when communicating to be aware how the things you say - and the way you say them - affect everyone who's listening, not merely the person you're directing the comments toward.
Ok, so you are saying that people should be punished for using the mute button? Because that sounds exactly like ignoring a player.
Regardless, I think that rito has gone a little sensitive if they are going to chat ban players for telling teammates to ignore someone that is flaming them and just report them afterwards.
Ok, so you are saying that people should be punished for using the mute button? Because that sounds exactly like ignoring a player.
Not necessarily. It's very much a matter of how it's handled. If you're hearing what they're saying, and responding to what they're saying - but never in a way that recognizes them - then you're stepping into the form of ignoring that I'm referring to.
If you aren't hearing anything they're saying in the first place, then you can't be responding to it (much less in a way that fails to recognize them), so you aren't falling into that same category.
Regardless, I think that rito has gone a little sensitive if they are going to chat ban players for telling teammates to ignore someone that is flaming them and just report them afterwards.
Maybe they have. They've long said they'd be more strict than the Tribunal was. Perhaps this is an instance of that being demonstrated. Or, perhaps that wasn't what the restriction was issued for. I don't know.
I honestly don't believe that a statement like that is - by itself - worth any form of sanction. It's toxic, sure, but it's not toxic enough, in my mind. But until the Tribunal returns, my opinions on that matter aren't particularly meaningful.
First off, how do you do that cool little quote thing in a reply? I either have "reply" or "quote" and quote doesn't put it in the cool discussion/reply type view :/
And as far as what the restriction was for, I'm not sure. I asked support but we all know how useless they are :/ He said it wasn't anything specific that I did, and then mentioned this whole asking to report thing. I remember telling my veigar bud to do that, so who knows lol.
I hope they give us tribunal back :/
First off, how do you do that cool little quote thing in a reply? I either have "reply" or "quote" and quote doesn't put it in the cool discussion/reply type view :/
I'm not sure if I can format this to show right, but I'm gonna try. When you hit quote, it comes up and looks something like this:
"> First off, how do you do that cool little quote thing in a reply? I either have "reply" or "quote" and quote doesn't put it in the cool discussion/reply type view :/ "> "> And as far as what the restriction was for, I'm not sure. I asked support but we all know how useless they are :/ He said it wasn't anything specific that I did, and then mentioned this whole asking to report thing. I remember telling my veigar bud to do that, so who knows lol. "> "> I hope they give us tribunal back :/
Only without the leading " marks, of course. If you break that up with at least one full blank line (no > mark) before typing your own stuff, it marks the end of the quote. Then, when there's another > mark, it starts a new quote. And then I use the Preview to make sure it looks right. Hopefully that makes sense?
And as far as what the restriction was for, I'm not sure. I asked support but we all know how useless they are :/ He said it wasn't anything specific that I did, and then mentioned this whole asking to report thing. I remember telling my veigar bud to do that, so who knows lol.
It may be that he was just letting you know that that's something they frown on, or something that wound up getting you restricted because you do it a lot (thus the "nothing specific"). My biggest issue with the chat restriction system is the lack of feedback, not just because it means players like you've earned one don't know what they actually did, but because it means posters like myself who want to help can't really tell you anything useful.
I hope they give us tribunal back :/
Eventually. Hopefully sooner than later, 'cause I'm honestly pretty sick of trying to help people figure these things out and not being able to.
There's no benefit to doing so - because the system looks for reported games, rather than total number of reports.
Is this true? I thought when i did tribunal it showed the comments from everyone who reported someone.
Why would you call for reports?
When someone says report so and so, it sometimes serves as a helpful reminder. Especially since i can't go back and report after i've exited the post-game lobby.
And, as it's a form of manipulative, bullying behavior, it's considered to be toxic, meaning those counter-reports suddenly have some validity.
I can see this if you are arguing about it and trying to convince people to report. But otherwise where do you draw the line? Is saying 'report Teemo' once after the game really different from saying 'dat Teemo', which really serves the same purpose and i don't think could be construed in the same light?
On the opposite side, if someone asks for honor, says 'please commend' or 'honor for all' etc after the game, i won't honor them even if i would have done so otherwise.
Is this true? I thought when i did tribunal it showed the comments from everyone who reported someone.
The reporting system determines whether to build a case based on the number of reported games (termed "Report Density") rather than the total number of reports issued against a player (termed "Raw Reports"). As such, for the purpose of building a case, 1 report in a particular game means the same as 9 reports in a particular game.
When determining which games to display from a particular case, the Tribunal often chose games with multiple reports. The intention behind this was to ensure that the best representation of the behaviors that sent them to the Tribunal were shown (since the more people recognize a behavior as toxic and therefor report it, the more likely it is for there to actually be toxic behavior in that particular game).
When someone says report so and so, it sometimes serves as a helpful reminder. Especially since i can't go back and report after i've exited the post-game lobby.
Perhaps so, but is it a reminder you need in the middle of the game?
I can see this if you are arguing about it and trying to convince people to report. But otherwise where do you draw the line? Is saying 'report Teemo' once after the game really different from saying 'dat Teemo', which really serves the same purpose and i don't think could be construed in the same light?
I don't think, necessarily, that "report Teemo" and "dat Teemo" serve the same purpose, though I admit to a certain bias based on my own usage of "dat."
When the Tribunal was active, occasional calls for reports, such as you indicate here, were often ignored. What I heard most about it was that the single comments like that simply weren't "bad enough" to bring a case over people's threshold. I know I personally would not have punished for just a single line such as the OP indicated. Not because it wasn't toxic - it is - but because it's simply not toxic enough to make me think it's worthy of any form of sanction.
With Riot handling things now - and being notably stricter, as they've always said they would be - I don't know where the general threshold is, or how strict their criteria are. As such, I tend to address things based on a rather more absolute value than a scale - I will speak about whether a behavior is toxic, but not how toxic it is, because until the Tribunal returns, my judgement on that isn't meaningful or relevant.
Perhaps so, but is it a reminder you need in the middle of the game?
No. I assumed OP was talking about the postgame lobby. I could be wrong.
I don't think, necessarily, that "report Teemo" and "dat Teemo" serve the same purpose, though I admit to a certain bias based on my own usage of "dat."
Fair enough. "what a jerk teemo was that game, huh guys?"
No. I assumed OP was talking about the postgame lobby. I could be wrong.
The quote he offered (which you may not have seen at the time of your posting) was "Veigar, just ignore him and report him after the match".
Fair enough. "what a jerk teemo was that game, huh guys?"
Again, if Teemo can hear that, it's potentially toxic. On a scale, it's low, and again, I wouldn't punish it by itself. But there is toxicity there.
Again, if Teemo can hear that, it's potentially toxic. On a scale, it's low, and again, I wouldn't punish it by itself. But there is toxicity there.
I don't know what you mean by again (maybe you were talking about that with the OP), but, i guess, if he's still there, it would be rude to speak about him in the third person. I was envisioning a circumstance in which he'd already left the lobby.
Still i'm sure we can find a way to phrase it that isn't toxic. Its perfectly reasonable, in my opinion, to address in the post-game lobby Teemo's behavior while he's present. How about, for example, "Teemo i thought you were quite rude in that last game". To me this is the equivalent to saying 'report Teemo'.
I'm not sure if you're taking issue with the word "report" itself or what exactly. All i'm saying is that in the postgame screen i sometimes like a reminder because too often i exit the lobby after a game only to think oh man that one guy was cursing out that other guy on my team and meant to report him, only then its too late. And that's my reason for sometimes saying 'report so-and-so' after the game, to return the courtesy of the reminder.
I don't know what you mean by again (maybe you were talking about that with the OP), but, i guess, if he's still there, it would be rude to speak about him in the third person. I was envisioning a circumstance in which he'd already left the lobby.
I think you're right. Getting my conversations mixed up. Sorry about that. :)
Still i'm sure we can find a way to phrase it that isn't toxic. Its perfectly reasonable, in my opinion, to address in the post-game lobby Teemo's behavior while he's present. How about, for example, "Teemo i thought you were quite rude in that last game". To me this is the equivalent to saying 'report Teemo'.
It's difficult, and it's not something I'd try in-game, but yeah, there's ways to express displeasure with another's actions that aren't toxic. "That was pretty rude, dude," or something similar is my preferred method, though I've seen some others.
I'm not sure if you're taking issue with the word "report" itself or what exactly. All i'm saying is that in the postgame screen i sometimes like a reminder because too often i exit the lobby after a game only to think oh man that one guy was cursing out that other guy on my team and meant to report him, only then its too late. And that's my reason for sometimes saying 'report so-and-so' after the game, to return the courtesy of the reminder.
To some extent it's the word, yeah. It's a bit more, as well, though. It's a matter of negative implications, or making it about the player rather than about the player's actions, if that makes sense. "That was rude" is a statement about a behavior. "You're a jerk" is a statement about a person, and making it about the person makes it personal. It tends to create even more negativity.
But still, I personally wouldn't stress over a comment like that in the post-game lobby of a match, especially if "so-and-so" was genuinely being toxic.
To some extent it's the word, yeah. It's a bit more, as well, though. It's a matter of negative implications, or making it about the player rather than about the player's actions, if that makes sense. "That was rude" is a statement about a behavior. "You're a jerk" is a statement about a person, and making it about the person makes it personal. It tends to create even more negativity.
Sure, but you have to draw the line somewhere. At some point it has to be okay to talk about. If we become so politically correct that we refuse to admit the existence of people who are jerks at least at times or become scared to even talk about it, i don't think that solves anything. It would just be pushing the problem under the rug.
Yeah saying someone "is a jerk" is probably over the line because it labels them, puts them in some category from which there is no escape, saying the someone "was a jerk" i think it within reason, because i know that i can be a jerk sometimes. Now where we draw the line is a cultural question and people will have different opinions on what they think is acceptable and what isn't. Personally i wouldn't be offended if someone said i was being a jerk, or even that i am a jerk or a lot of worse stuff, so maybe i draw the line further than some people. I don't know.
Sure, but you have to draw the line somewhere. At some point it has to be okay to talk about. If we become so politically correct that we refuse to admit the existence of people who are jerks at least at times or become scared to even talk about it, i don't think that solves anything. It would just be pushing the problem under the rug.
Absolutely! But that's what the boards are for. The middle of the game isn't an appropriate place for that kind of discussion. And I don't think the post-game lobby is, either. Private messages or chat rooms are good places for that, and the boards are fantastic for it (as long as we can keep names out of it - there's rarely a need to call people out to discuss behavior).
Absolutely! But that's what the boards are for. The middle of the game isn't an appropriate place for that kind of discussion. And I don't think the post-game lobby is, either. Private messages or chat rooms are good places for that, and the boards are fantastic for it (as long as we can keep names out of it - there's rarely a need to call people out to discuss behavior).
Well i guess we disagree there a little. I do think post-game lobby is an appropriate place for any discussion including about behavior.
Hey, it happens.
Honestly, if I saw a genuine, thoughtful discussion that avoided judgmental attitudes in post-game lobby chat in a particular case, I wouldn't punish based on that. Judging only from this discussion, I don't think you're likely to see many - if any - problems with any of the behavioral systems.