Riot: How do you begin reworks?

PhoenixSlayer13·Mar 27, 2014·1 votes·2,950 views

This isn't asking about why champs are reworked, most of the time there are pretty clear reasons why. What I'm curious on is the mindset while beginning a rework.

Do you distinctly make sure that the champion has similar abilities? Basically building off existing abilities?

Are there times where you've cleared the ability slate completely, looked at the champ's model, and said "based on what they look like, what do they do?"

In certain cases, do you decide to start from scratch completely, basically making a new champion? Karma comes to mind for this one. Would this be done in the future if the champ is in bad enough shape?

11 Comments

RiotFeralPonyMar 28, 20147 votes

The honest and less helpful answer is that it depends. It depends on the champion and depends on the designer. I'll talk about only the reworks I was involved in and that actually went anywhere, which were Jax, Trundle, and Sion.

Jax

The primary motivator for the Jax changes was the removal of RNG dodge as a mechanic. Jax being the primary user of dodge had basically lost his E ability and a large chunk of his thematics if we simply stripped this mechanic out. The rework was geared around how do we keep this champion intact and still feeling like himself.

Shurelia had the great idea of "Is dodge the problem? Or is it just RNG dodge the problem?" since we agreed it was the latter 100% dodge chance seemed like a great solution and the rework commenced :)

Trundle

Trundle was mostly an art driven rework. The creative and art teams really wanted to update him and this was a good opportunity for us on design to pop in and do some minor tweaks to go with the art rework. We were happy with Trundle's kit for the most part already so the changes were geared towards increasing satisfaction (the rationale for the impact slow on Q, bump on E, and stronger visual support for the ultimate/Q) and more clearly identifying his role as a tank buster (changing the Dmg on R to be % based like the armor/mr steal), this is why the Trundle rework as a whole was a pretty small changelist overall despite the large creative shift.

Sion

Sion has enough problems designwise, artwise, and creatively that in most ways the rework is basically a new champion, and we're using a very similar approach and style to when we create completely new champions. We'll have more information on him as he moves along but we're approaching it from a full rework perspective and we don't feel there is a ton of the current character worth keeping so he will be very different once complete, unlike the previous 2 champions I mentioned who we worked very hard to retain as much as possible. In Sion's case if we can retain elements of the current character from art/design/creative it's certainly a plus, we just don't see much worth trying to keep on the current design. It's not quite starting from scratch - we still want big hulking zombie champion from Noxus, but it's certainly the same level of work as making an entirely new champion.

DreeganMar 28, 20141 votes

Hey FeralPony. Glad to see someone up so late and talking about reworks. I understand that you might not be the person for this, but if you could, I'd like your opinion on Shen as a visual/kit rework possibility.

I've had some opinions of my own and would really appreciate you looking at it, or giving it to another Riot Shen Lover.

RiotFeralPonyMar 28, 20145 votes

So as you yourself mentioned I think your rework is a bit shall we say "slightly overtuned" (that's polite designer speak for pretty overpowered :D ) but I think you hit on a couple key points. Shen doesn't play much like a ninja and doesn't look like a tank. That perception does vary by region quite a bit but I certainly agree we can bring the visuals and thematics closer together and kitwise it wouldn't hurt to add a bit more excitement and play to his mechanics overall.

In terms of priority, I wouldn't expect a "rework" anytime soon (almost certainly not this year) as I haven't heard anyone talk of slating him for one. Smaller scale kit changes are of course a possibility and far more likely. I think you're right there is room to make him feel a bit more ninja-esc and more exciting to play, though I do still really enjoy playing him on Live as is.

Artistically I think you can hit pretty large gains with small silhouette changes, example bulking up his upper body a bit more could very easily help sell that he's a tank style figure, same with adding additional armor. I'm not an artist but those would be what I would consider first.

<- I lied, I am an artist and you can see my attempt at a visual rework there.

I will also say I was amused at your use of CertainlyT'd as a verb. A bit unfair perhaps, but certainlyt funny. I'll be sure to pass that along to him. :D

DreeganMar 28, 20141 votes

:D I'm very thankful for you to look at my post, much less actually read and respond to it so honestly. Haha, yes, I am very much aware that I over-tuned the kit (but somewhere in my mind it wouldn't be THAT bad depending on ratios and energy consumption...), but as I said, that was the plan all along. I find it easier to really flesh out a champion by throwing all your crazy awesome ideas at him and see what sticks.

I'm not sure how "bulking" Shen up would work, but I'm sure it couldn't hurt. I just worry that with his current model/rig it would look a little weird, and maybe make Shen look like a little blue Zac.

And trust me, I do love playing Shen. He's still very fun to me, but I think Riot could do better by Shen nowadays with how you've grown and learned from your past design choices. (ex. Global Teleport needs to go so Shen can have more/better stuff).

Anyways. Thanks again for the reply, and tell CertainlyT that it wasn't meant in a foul way. :D He's by far my favorite champion designer, so I was trying to think like him when I developed the kit. I'll quote your post in the original. :D

PhoenixSlayer13Mar 28, 20141 votes

I'm kinda a fan of the idea of "dodge tanky" for Shen. I know this would be VERY difficult to incorporate in-game, especially when Jax is already our dodge champ, but it feels more ninja-esque to be tanky by not being hit at all rather than taking hits full force.

HigeRMar 28, 20141 votes

Hi Feralpony! I'm wondering if you guys would recycle Sion's skills for future champions, I mean, people have shown much skill (very power) with such a kit which we know it's all over the place, yet you can't hide the fact that Sion AP is as playable as Sion AD as well.

I've had this crazy idea for a long time that you guys would split Sion in 2, trying to complete his kit without his AP oriented skills and leaving those in a "cloud" that will eventually come down to make their own kit alongside a "new" champion.

It'd be crazy good if you guys released Sion rework at the same time that you release this "new" champ with a charging shield (I'm guessing targeted stun/nuke is just too powerful to even make it in another champ) that way the whole process would be much more transparent imho.

I think saying that I look forward to Sion rework (as well as many others who needs it) is an understatement :P I can't wait to see how the game shifts once balanced kits start making an appearance!!

valigarmanderMar 29, 20141 votes

after seeing that artwork i just have to ask, can you do the placeholder splash arts on the PBE? i think it would be funny to see a simplified drawing of a champ instead of "placeholder image - splash in currently progress", it would add humor to the load screen

3mptylordMar 29, 20141 votes

The issue with Shen is that he looks like a ninja but has the kit of a samurai - which means you have two directions to take his rework. Either re-visualize him as a samurai, or turn him into a ninja. Problem with the latter is Zed. The issue with the former is that people are attached to him being a ninja, even if he never really has been. "This unit is a flippin' samurai!".

PhoenixSlayer13Mar 28, 20141 votes

Thanks for the response :)

Sometimes I just feel that removing abilities and looking at the champ on their own can lead to some very creative changes that can still serve the same playstyle. I think this is really important for champs who aren't that strong thematically (while good otherwise, just how does Mundo make fireballs swirl around him?).

Sidenote: for some odd reason I can't upvote your post. System bug?

Lillianna VielMar 29, 20141 votes

What was your guyses idea for the MF rework?

BorandMar 29, 20141 votes

@FeralPony:

If you're the RingLeader behind those two reworks then I sure am looking forward to Sion's rework!

The Kassadin and Gragas ones could be better executed (not implying they are bad- just not interesting and not appealing), but you seem to do good work on your reworks!

Looking forward to your work! Props!