"We nerfed raw AP because we think there should only be one maximum AP item"

PDE5 Inhib·Apr 13, 2016·5 votes·657 views

Ok, but ?

24 Comments

MisterHealYoGirlApr 13, 20162 votes

Those items give 80, 75, 75, 75, 65, 65, and 75 AD, respectively. I'm not seeing your point.

PDE5 InhibApr 13, 20162 votes

A) Blood thirster gives 75 damage as well. B) the 65 AD items also have 20% crit, meaning the damage is very comparable (ie is more when you factor in the bonus 50%). C) My point: Why are there are allowed to be multiple items that give 75 AD? Shouldn't there only be one that provides maximum damage?

KallianApr 13, 20161 votes

mages have a VERY high burst damage effect, so if you have more than 1 max AP item, most people get fucked one way or another

Laughing FishApr 13, 20164 votes

They want ADCs to have a more even power curve than Mages, thus they get more max AD items, but the AD given by those items are lesser than the AP given by mage's top items ( item 3089 can easily top 200 AP). This means that a mage may suddenly skyrocket up in damage after hitting their power spike, but an ADC is slowly but surely growing stronger. The balance may be a little off still, but that is the primary goal to having several pretty high AD items vs a few uber high AP items.

Vistha KaiApr 13, 20161 votes

Should I mention that average AP scaling is MUCH lower than 1.0?

100 AD easily beats 200 AP.

MisterHealYoGirlApr 13, 20161 votes

No. Rabadon's provides raw AP and nothing else, while each of these items is built in a different situation. The point of nerfing AP was to create distinct niches for each item: you build Luden's if you can use the base damages in your poke pattern, Zhonya's if you could use the armor and active, Rylai's if you want the slow, and so on. Previously they were efficient enough that just stacking them up provided AP comparable to a Rabadon's build; there was no reason to think about what you were buying.

PDE5 InhibApr 13, 20162 votes

Meh, there really isn't a reason to think too much about what you're buying as an ADC. You typically just go item 3031 item 3094 item 3035 item 3072 anyway.

But in regards to AD items, shouldn't there only be one max AD item? Why not nerf items that provide added benefits the same way they did mage items?

MisterHealYoGirlApr 13, 20161 votes

I think you're simplifying ADC buildpaths a bit; CDR-focused, crit-focused, AS-focused, and Ezreal are all different buildpaths for ADCs, and what items they end up with really does change. If there was one item that only provided flat AD (and nothing else), it would likely provide a good bit more than 75. But since ADCs have so many stats to play with (crit, CDR, AD, AS, armor pen, lifesteal) when compared to mages (CDR, AP, magic pen), their items haven't needed to be distinguished in this way. Mages only build three stats, so for an item that only provides one of them (and nothing else) to feel distinct, it should provide head-and-shoulders more in that one stat.

Vistha KaiApr 13, 20161 votes

Too bad CDR and Crit builds are pretty much the same.

ßurstApr 14, 20161 votes

Becasue not everyone builds a IE or BT except for adc's.....

ßurstApr 13, 20162 votes

OK now tell me how many of those items are ideal for bruisers and or bruiser assasins such as fiora riven jayce. 4 maybe 5? if you count bt but even that one is booty and ad champs had all of their armor pen nerfed to where its not even a good idea to build last whisper because its trash. Even then mages can build whatever they want to counter their lanes usually, without much loss of power. Where we have to go for core items before anything which many of our core items got nerfed alos BC, HYDRA, LAST WHISPER. Make your points valid without simply looking at adc's vs mages or 2 ad assassins mid vs all mages K thnx.

Vistha KaiApr 13, 20161 votes

Mages can build whatever they want.

Wrong, the AP item diversity is so non-existant that 5 out of 6 items are always exactly the same.

ßurstApr 14, 20162 votes

At least you can get 20% cdr for under 2500 when i have to waste 3500 to get the equivalent while it being a poopoo item.

Vistha KaiApr 14, 20161 votes

I wonder how's that "poopoo" item called.

ßurstApr 14, 20162 votes

Hmmmm lets come and make a circle and think together youngjedi.

Vistha KaiApr 14, 20161 votes

I'm far from following the Jedi philosophy.

On the other hand, I'm still waiting for you to tell me, which AD item you had in mind.

Doctor JarvisApr 14, 20161 votes

My current theory is that he's referring to Black Cleaver, which, apparently, is a bad item. The ability to evade kiting, high AD...SOME health (it can't have great everything, okay?), armor shred, and CDR make this item fucking terrible for anyone who would even think about using it.

ßurstApr 15, 20162 votes

Oh he really didn't know what I was referring to. Yes it's black cleaver. The idea though is that it's a bad item because it's an item that you want the stats for early game i wouldnt mind the stats being lowered but it keeping 20% cdr along with maybe a less amound of armor shred. As i said it's supposed to be an early game item and as far as it's going right now you finishing the item way too late to help you in those tank lanes top. For example, tanks finish sun fire with 2700 g's thats 800 gold less than cleaver along with the combine cost being only 850 while cleaver has a 1150 combine cost. Which means they punish you all the way until you get a actually get the cleaver, but by that time tey are building more armor going for IBG(obviously, cuz nothing else is in the top lane dlc pack) that means they can almost already get a glacial shroud and have more armor by the time you finish black cleaver. Just a different way for you to look at it ik its lengthy but hey give me some comments on what you think. :)

Vistha KaiApr 15, 20161 votes

Too bad that with the changes to armor penetration, Black Cleaver is possibly the best anti-armor item right now.

Doctor JarvisApr 15, 20161 votes

Im confused as to why you think its supposed to be an early game item. Like, do you mean its a rush item? Because I think that's your problem; you're thinking about it wrong. It has tons of later game utility, and its build path is awesome for bruisers. Phage has the Rage passive, which is great, health and AD. Caulfield's is pretty good too. You don't get the armor shred until you complete it, sure, but if your lane opponent has AR enough to stop all your damage by the time you're done with it I have some bad news. And even if you don't rush it its still an awesome item

ßurstApr 15, 20161 votes

And why do you think its a late game item i must ask? You build cleaver to counter tanks in the top lane so you have a chance to actually duel them because they will be unkillable and kill you before you actually kill them if you go for a straight flat armor pen item. You build cleaver for the tanks that are counter you with armor so in turn your both making your items less cost efficient, but the problem is tank items are still stronger and more cost efficient in the aspect of countering the items that are meant to actually counter them. Confusing right:p but the last sentence is summing it up. Also with what you are telling me at this point is your making the game very much unbalanced and in tanks favor by saying that tanks have no items to counter them efficiently until mid-late game?

EmbertineApr 13, 20161 votes

item 3072 used to give 100 AD AND a stacking 20% lifesteal. It was fully possible to have bonus 600 AD and 120% lifesteal off of just building Bloodthirsters alone. You see, Ad items have already been hit with the nerf bat.

Vistha KaiApr 13, 20161 votes

ADs also used to have 50% crit chance tops, now 75% is more than common.

Big LincolnApr 14, 20161 votes

but there's more than one maximum AP item

item 3003 item 3041 when stacked offer more than a deathcap, and the former synergizes with other mana items (and Deathcap) pretty nicely

I think people are underestimating how much AP they'll be able to get now. It's still high (it might be higher since Riot is buffing Morello AP values), but the build will be different.