Zed's really popular, I wonder what's going to happen when you nerf Zhonyas AND mana regen

PDE5 Inhib·Apr 13, 2016·105 votes·4,786 views

My guess is that it probably isn't going to increase diversity.

160 Comments

MoonshadeApr 13, 201619 votes

Zed, Corki and Yasuo will be near perma banned after this. Zed because he's dominant mid, Corki because he's the main mid lane adc, and Yasuo because manaless annoying guy who shouts HASAGI and has 6+ dashes a minion wave

Supreme Senpai69Apr 13, 20164 votes

But then how do you ban xin?

PDE5 InhibApr 13, 20168 votes

We can't even ban the champs like Voli that have an absurd win rate because there is too much bullshit right now. It's like you HAVE to ban Zed, Yi, Malph, Ekko, Naut, Graves, Poppy, Raka, and Aurelion Sol (just to stop 0 games played fuck heads from playing her in ranked).

When I started playing League, you can just ban the champs that you hated to play against. Now, you can't. You have to try and ban all the bullshit that there is in League.

I want to ban Udyr and Vayne because they're bullshit and I hate them. But nooooo, because if I don't ban Ekko the enemy basically gets a free win.

Supreme Senpai69Apr 13, 20164 votes

Semi-related. I hate that there are 'must ban' champions, but I also hate that there are 'must counter' champions too. One of the biggest culprits is Blitzcrank over in the bot lane. You sorta have to play something tanky like Alistar or you'll probably lose. It's like, "sure he can be countered, but I don't want to have to play a tank just because they want to play Blitz. I want to play a mage or utility support."

It's the same with these pick or bans. If you're first pick and your team doesn't ban an OP champ, you have to pick them or lose. But what if you don't want to play them? I think that you should be able to win any lane with any champion regardless of the enemy laner's champion. Sure, counters/OP champs should make it harder, but not impossible.

/rant.

Aurelion Sol players are getting better now btw. (He's also a guy, not a girl.) It was the same with Jhin, people fed at first because nobody knew how to play him, but now he's a solid choice. I wouldn't waste a ban on him anymore.

PDE5 InhibApr 13, 20163 votes

Morg is one of the bigger counters to Blitz if you wanna play a mage/utility support. But yeah, other than that you're fucked haha...unless you can dodge his Qs. I personally don't have a problem with him anymore that I got better at dodging them. But again, this plays into the "I can't ban champs I want because there are must bans" thing I was talking about. My want to bans are Udyr, yours is Blitz lol.

I can't play ranked because of level yet anyway, so I don't waste ban on him lol. I was speaking in general for ranked. I think the simple thing to do is make a mastery requirement for playing champs in ranked, but nobody likes that idea. And I'm aware the champ is a male, but I call the champs girl that are usually played by baby backed bitches.

Serika ZeroApr 13, 20162 votes

why you ban sol? I haven't seen a champion so bad since Illaoi's release.

I rather have a Teemo as my mid laner >.> than dragon

PDE5 InhibApr 13, 20164 votes

You answered your own question lol.

I ban Sol because I dont' want some dipshit 12 year old "omg dragon champ much fun" ruining my game by going 0-15-1 by 12 mins in.

Juggernaut628Apr 13, 201613 votes

Wasn't Zed's ban rate 60%+ recently already? INB4 perms-banned Zed.

PDE5 InhibApr 13, 201611 votes

Bruh...we can't ban all of rito's current bullshit lol Ban Zed and Yasuo takes his place. Ban them both and then ADCs go mid because Mages are too weak to rekt em.

LankPantsApr 13, 201612 votes

Zed is currently picked or banned in about 80% of games. Clearly he needs to be stronger though.

Guy Fox TeemoApr 13, 20163 votes

I'm not going to even talk about balance, but do people really use that as a good measure? Lee Sin is played a lot, Lee Sin has a shit win rate.

Please use other statistics if your trying to prove a point.

LankPantsApr 13, 20164 votes

Zed's a supposedly difficult champion (I think this is BS personally) who wins over half his games and is banned in 2/3rds of games. There's clearly something wrong with his balance.

Lee's high pick rate comes from the fact that he is overpowered. He's also viewed as the 'standard jungler' and not the easiest champ to play so his winrate tanks for it.

IcyPepperApr 14, 20166 votes

Agreed, but outliers tend to be a concern.

53% win rate? 20% winrate on a champion that's always been popular? 25% ban rate for a champion that's considered a low elo pubstomper? Yeah, not great statistics to base an entire argument on.

But Zed currently has a 62.1% ban rate. That's not just above average, that's an indicator that something is wrong.

You could use more statistics, if you wanted. His win rate dropped slightly in patch 6.7, and you could theorize it's due to the only people not banning Zed being comfortable against him. Something that worries me, however, is that his winrate dips below 50% at 25-30%, but apparently his chances at winning are greatest in the late-game. For an assassin with a strong early game that's supposed to have a weaker late, that's worrisome. Energy champions should drop off by then, not increase in power.

Another statistics is that compared to other midlaners, he gets way above average kills and slightly below average deaths and very little assists. This makes it seem like he's "safe" compared to other midlaners, and gets more reward and less risk involved.

Another concern I see is that his most effective build involves two bruiser items: cleaver and sterak's. I mean, granted, it's obviously why they're effective on him, but that gives him a little more tankiness (alongside Maw) with his mobility that makes it even more difficult to put him down and contributes to his growing late-game power when he should be strong in the midgame.

On a plus note, his counters are still effective against him so he's not completely overbearing.

Is that better?

Guy Fox TeemoApr 14, 20161 votes

"effective build" no its not, thats jsuta build someone happened to win with, and if they do it a few times, then it becomes teh most effective build for everything, thats why using that statistic is bad.

Also zed has a 50% win rate currently :P

IcyPepperApr 14, 20162 votes

Oh come on, at least I put effort into my post and analyzed those statistics accordingly.

TwinkieProApr 13, 20165 votes

The reason Zhonyas was bought against Zed was primarily for the active. In fact, it will be easier to get zhonyas now because of the price decrease, so there will be less fretting. It is now primarily a utility item, rather than something necessary most mages should buy.

edit: if you are downvoting me for pointing out Riot's plan for the item, that's a little silly. What I'm stating isn't an opinion, but Riot's plan. I do, however, appreciate the feed back, and also disagree with the way Zhonyas is being tuned. The active cooldown is by far the most detrimental change, especially since its considered a utility item now. If anything, it should be dropped to 75 seconds, not struck to 120.

M0b1usApr 13, 201632 votes

{quoted}

The reason Zhonyas was bought against Zed was primarily for the active. In fact, it will be easier to get zhonyas now because of the price decrease, so there will be less fretting. It is now primarily a utility item, rather than something necessary most mages should buy.

It's active is also going to have its CD increased by 30 seconds if the numbers aren't changed from the PBE. Sure, you could get it faster, but you are going to get really bad stats and have an active that won't be up for a much longer time once used.

The proposed mage item changes are complete garbage as they are now.

IcyPepperApr 13, 201626 votes

I've been wondering for awhile, and I found a likely unpopular opinion:

Maybe having zhonyas be a bandaid solution is a bad idea, and the real solution requires actually dealing the AD dominance.

And if zhonyas is being shifted into an utility item, have some form of anti-AD item similar to Maw but its own distinct item.

MrWasjigApr 13, 201617 votes

have some form of anti-AD item similar to Maw but its own distinct item.

No! We can't have that! It would defy our glorious AD Overlords!

kappapleasedontkillmeitsjokes

PDE5 InhibApr 13, 201614 votes

You know what they say....there's a little truth in every joke.

MrWasjigApr 13, 20162 votes

The person who down-voted clearly didn't get it x3

PDE5 InhibApr 13, 20164 votes

Well, considering the average board user has an IQ in single digits, I'm not surprised.

MrWasjigApr 13, 20161 votes

Preach.

PDE5 InhibApr 13, 20165 votes

http://eternalevangelism.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/preaching-preacher.gif

Duke AnaxApr 13, 20163 votes

if you said doubble digits, it wouldn't even been a joke but the sad truth.

M0b1usApr 13, 20163 votes

{quoted}

I've been wondering for awhile, and I found a likely unpopular opinion:

Maybe having zhonyas be a bandaid solution is a bad idea, and the real solution requires actually dealing the AD dominance.

And if zhonyas is being shifted into an utility item, have some form of anti-AD item similar to Maw but its own distinct item.

I agree, but Riot always been rather bias when it comes to AD. So I don't think we will ever see Riot treat AD similar to other roles.

Sadly, we won't get an anti-AD item like maw for mages. Maw has solid stats and a good passive. Even Hexdrinker has a great passive. Mages get seekers which needs like 30 CS to even get the full stats and doesn't have a strong passive/active. Even zhonya's active is much riskier than Maw's passive and actually has downsides.

kasfasApr 13, 20163 votes

{quoted}

an utility item

Now, I'm no phonetician, but reading this aloud bugged me so much that I went and looked it up.

It's actually A utility item, based on the pronunciation of the letter U.

In the word "Union" the letter U makes the long sound "YOU", as opposed to the word "Underwear" which makes the short U sound "UH."

In deciding between A and AN, you must realize whether the sound you pronounce starts with a vowel or consonant, THAT is what dictates which of the two to use.

This is VERY off topic for something very small, but it just really got to me in this instance. No hate, just pointing it out.

Resume the conversation!

IcyPepperApr 13, 20163 votes

Oh. My. God.

THANK YOU.

I've been unsure for so long, since the way it's spelled and the way it's pronounced, so I went with my best guess. Now that I finally know the damn different, I can start saying/writing it correctly!

kasfasApr 13, 20163 votes

https://media1.giphy.com/media/tCV2LrPPYfqCY/200w.gif

XonraApr 13, 20165 votes

"Zed's really popular, I wonder what's going to happen when you nerf Zhonyas AND mana regen"

It's Riot doing stuff like that that makes me genuinely wonder if they have multiple teams that just don't bother talking to each other when making changes.

You have balance teams, teams working on reworks, teams working on big changes like the pre season, or this mage id season change, introducing new items or making changes to existing items. It really feels like none of them talk to each other, something goes live, then the balance team goes "well shit, we have to fix all this because no one bothered to look at anything else."

It feels like they make changes and introduce items in a vacuum and refuse to look at what is already there. I mean Zhonyas is pretty much the "anit zed" item for mages as much as there can be such a thing. Now the cooldown is being raised which disregarding the other changes that I also don't like, is going to only buff zed to a degree.

Not even going into detail about how mid lane marksman are going to go up further in popularity with the low ap AND the lower mana regen because of the ease of last hitting and pushing without abilities. Resourceless or very different resource using champs are just going to push out so many champions as well.

Jungle mages are going to have to be a bit more selfish with blue buff, support mages might as well suck a dick or waste all their money on mana regen to keep up (I'm more speaking to solo queue as pro play is a whole other animal), and the list goes on. I'm friggin silver and I can clear as day see this issues, but the people that make these changes and balance the game for a JOB seem oblivious until months after they release things (if then). Blows my mind lol

Malix FarwinApr 13, 20163 votes

Yea prolly auto ban zed if going AP at that point lol

disregardableApr 13, 20166 votes

You don't auto-ban Zed now?

MrWasjigApr 13, 20168 votes

No because Tank-Ekko is currently higher on the bullshit meter (Until next patch at least, then we'll see)

falldown010Apr 13, 20162 votes

this ^ imo its insane what happens if you let someone get ekko on the enemy team ,and he goes tanky, and a teamfight breaks out

Vistha KaiApr 13, 20162 votes

Unless your secondary main is Diana.

Then you just let Zed open.

NetherlifeApr 13, 20162 votes

To be honest, I'm thinking that allowing Zhyona's to be cheaper will allow you to get it much sooner than before. Providing he doesn't get fed from roams, it should help a lot in preventing him from dominating you early and getting his lead that way.

Serika ZeroApr 13, 20164 votes

Right now, if you get Zhonias. Zed can no longer 1v1 you. Since you can use active during R animation and negate it entirely. And both things have almost the same CD (Zhonias has 90). For 80% of the game you counter him entirely.

If Zhonias gets poped to 120cd active

From wiki: Death Mark RANGE: 625 COOLDOWN: 120 / 100 / 80

The fact that you build that will no longer stop Zed. So, you won't even build it in the first place. As its no longer effective. At lv 11 it becomes worse than its now. At lv 16-18 Zed has almost 1 extra minute to R and kill you haha

Romans VI XXIIIApr 13, 20162 votes

Right now, if you get Zhonias. Zed can no longer 1v1 you. Since you can use active during R animation and negate it entirely. And both things have almost the same CD (Zhonias has 90). For 80% of the game you counter him entirely.

Fun fact. Zed doesn't need his ult to kill most mages.....its generally used as an escape from under tower mechanism......

Serika ZeroApr 13, 20162 votes

He needs it like air unless he got feed. I'm a mage player too. My mages are ahri, malzahar, morgana, anivia and tf. Even tho i mostly pref diana and malza 90% of the time. And zed is always heavily ult dependent unless feed. Oh right, i also play lulu, lissandra and kayle. Zed honestly doesn't bother me on most my picks. But the tf needs Zhonias.

And I never die to a zed without ult if on equal gold

Guy Fox TeemoApr 14, 20161 votes

Zhonyas isn't just used to block his ult, why do so many people think this? You don't Zhonyas te moment zed ults , you Zhonyas when he uses the abilities , Zeds ult alone isn't going to kill you without hitting skills. When he ults you bait out the skills thn Zhonyas to avoid them, he now has no CDs and you can get away.

Romans VI XXIIIApr 14, 20161 votes

Yes and those abilities have a 4 second CD....so how will you be using hourglass to stop him from killing you while its on CD? like Ive said in other posts, Zed doesn't even need his ult to kill most mages. Its used mostly for tower diving or escaping or dodging

Guy Fox TeemoApr 15, 20161 votes

His Q has around a 6 second CD mid game, with some CDR, W would be 22 seconds, E around 3.

Now without his W zeds power is significantly less (And without ult).

I very, very very very very, much doubt hes going to kill you with just those 2 abilities, in 4 seconds you could burst him in an instant as a mage.

You're just really biased to be able to see that.

Romans VI XXIIIApr 15, 20161 votes

you could burst him in an instant as a mage

WRONG

No mage with an equal amount of gold (and skill) can kill zed before he kills them. wanna know why??

item 3156

Is broken as fuck on Zed.

AD MR Armor Pen Magic Shield

everything you ever need as an AD assassin vs Mages

Yea you will not be killing zed before he kills you, let alone "burst him in an instant"

Guy Fox TeemoApr 15, 20162 votes

How's zed going to kill you? Don't be ignorant at most he had E up when you get out of Zhonyas. If he's dumb he'll stay and most likely die due to your burst or your burst and someone else helping. It really isn't difficult to avoid zed (much less his q's which are slow as fuck)

Vistha KaiApr 13, 20164 votes

You are forgeting Zed can get CDR, so the moment the game starts, Zed already has his ult on a lower cooldown than Zhonya.

Serika ZeroApr 13, 20161 votes

He rarely gets more than 10% from yomumu ghost blade. So that 8 seconds, you barely feel the difference atm. But with cdr +30 zhonias, its really going to be worthless vs zed. Zhonias would only become good on engage champions like tf, lissandra, Diana. And stuff like morgana and fiddle. Anyone else will begin to avoid it as it stops being effective as a defensive reactionary item. Its simply gona move to "buy more time in the engage before getting focused". So, the above champions + ekko, heimer and swain. I don't see others use it

Vistha KaiApr 13, 20164 votes

Black Cleaver and Death's Dance are an option. Not to mention Lucidity Boots.

Guy Fox TeemoApr 13, 20161 votes

Who the hell builds death dance? ON ZED?

Vistha KaiApr 13, 20163 votes

It's a situational 5/6th item.

Until this patch you could also see it in the "highest winrate build" on Champion.gg, so it's not like nobody ever builds it.

ShonjlApr 13, 20162 votes

You are missing one thing, Zed doesn't need his Ult other than in the beginning of the game to kill you. I have seen plenty of times Zed ult you, you Zhonyas it, and he can still use his normal skills with basically 0 cooldown to kill you.

Like when I get killed by a Talon or Kat, at least they have some sort of risk, but Zed even if he fails ult can still kill you, even under tower. Talon hell if he messes up he dies since his Ult is his kill potential as well as his escape. Kat if her ult fails is a massive amount of her damage and if she doesnt succeed, her cooldowns kill her. Zed Q is basically his auto attack.