"we want champion diversity"

GigglesO·Dec 21, 2016·34 votes·2,560 views

What I heard was: We want pro play to be balanced, but we also don't want our 60% bronze+silver playerbase to be angry, because they generate most of our cash flow.

https://i.imgflip.com/rsktt.jpg

21 Comments

Big LincolnDec 21, 201625 votes

"We want diversity, but we're not going to nerf Lee Sin, one of the champions who completely decides what the jungle meta will be every time he's good"

"We want diversity, but we're not going to do anything about melee ADCs being unable to take the place of their ranged counterparts since the game began"

"We want diversity, but we'll decide that any certain strength is 'unfun' or 'unhealthy' on a whim, and repeat it enough that our playerbase will mimic us so nobody complains when we make sure that champion stays dog shit for the next few years. Then we'll give them a half-ass rework that either keeps them the exact same or homogenizes them and takes away all the charm and appeal of the original champion."

Never trust Riot.

Mr NoggenfoggerDec 22, 20163 votes

They just needed Lee sin, they tried to do the melee adc with both yasuo and mordekaiser's rework. Your last point was too broad to argue about

Big LincolnDec 22, 20164 votes

im angery

DengedenDec 22, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=P7TFdGIF,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-12-21T22:29:17.995+0000)

"We want diversity, but we're not going to nerf Lee Sin, one of the champions who completely decides what the jungle meta will be every time he's good"

Except not really, he forces nothing you can name. Average winrate, high pickrate. Boo-hoo.

"We want diversity, but we're not going to do anything about melee ADCs being unable to take the place of their ranged counterparts since the game began"

You should be forced to face a 100 fed Tryndameres for that statement.

"We want diversity, but we'll decide that any certain strength is 'unfun' or 'unhealthy' on a whim

Whims like winrate and analysis of their playstyles.

and repeat it enough that our playerbase will mimic us

Yes, it's not that you complainers don't have any ideas other than making every melee except for Yasuo OP. That's definitely not it. It's not like Riot is the only one with tenable ideas. They even make the effort to listen to you complainers, fat load of good that does them.

so nobody complains

L o L Did you really just say that?

when we make sure that champion stays dog shit for the next few years.

Any bright ideas? No? Thought not.

Then we'll give them a half-ass rework that either keeps them the exact same or homogenizes them and takes away all the charm and appeal of the original champion."

Fiora Poppy Darius Sion Yorick

I like how you complain about champions being left in the dust in one breath and complain about reworks removing polarizing abilities and adding counterplay in the next. Also, newsflash: Everything becomes homogeneous once people figure out an opportune playstyle. Riot has nothing to do with that and never will.

Big LincolnDec 22, 20165 votes

Am I seeing things or did you post twice

Except not really, he forces nothing you can name. Average winrate, high pickrate. Boo-hoo.

Lee top tier puts the jungle meta into "Lee Sin and who can keep up with him." He's not top tier now because COTC has shoved its best users into the spotlight (excluding Shaco) but from playing since preseason 4, this has generally been what's happened.

Whims like winrate and analysis of their playstyles.

'Analysis,' huh? Riot can say that they think a champion is garbage design and that's fine. 'Unfun' is bullshit, nothing is fun to deal with. I'd rather see more champions viable than less, and the majority of champions in the trash heap aren't even that offensive. You've got Urgot, Tryndamere and Kalista, for sure but Shen, Cho'Gath, and Jax aren't that bad.

Yes, it's not that you complainers don't have any ideas other than making every melee except for Yasuo OP. That's definitely not it. It's not like Riot is the only one with tenable ideas.

Well, they're 7 years in and melee carries except for Yasuo have been horribly balanced, by their own standards. They can fix that any time they'd like.

Any bright ideas? No? Thought not.

Make them not dog shit. Done.

Vladimir Malzahar Shaco Skarner Mordekaiser Akali KogMaw Tristana

I like how you complain about champions being left in the dust in one breath and complain about reworks removing polarizing abilities and adding counterplay in the next.

Probably because most of these reworks have been awful and leave them even worse off than they were before. The class updates have been 4 humongous failures and the relaunches are subjective, personally I haven't really liked those so far, either. 'Counterplay' just comes in the form of making everything a skillshot and everything else being delayed (homogenizing).

Riot tries to remake their game every season, and every season they change the goalposts for what a 'good game' should constitute.

DengedenDec 22, 20161 votes

Yeah, Boards lagged.

It's always a matter of "top tier junglers keeping up with each other". Picking out Lee is arbitrary and shows your bias. A group of champions is the best of the best, no participation awards, with or without Lee.

Jax was pick&ban for almost 2 seasons, young one. Cho is a niche champion who offers a little bit of everything for his team. Which is a bad idea since you mostly want to carry from solo lanes. Shen... well yeah. Not that he isn't in a decent spot rn but his rework hurt more than it helped.

If they could fix that any time they liked, you could actually give some ideas that isn't some passive aggressive "don't make them dogshit" BS.

You implied that Yasuo was or is in a balanced state by saying that btw, lol.

All the champions you listed are either fine as they are, were in feast or famine states to begin with or dominated competitive play.

Yes. Skillshots, things that take skill. And delays, things that mean you can't instagib someone by flashing on them, also takes skill.

They change the goalposts? I wish, it's always the same game with a focus on different champions.

Big LincolnDec 22, 20161 votes

If they could fix that any time they liked, you could actually give some ideas that isn't some passive aggressive "don't make them dogshit" BS.

I don't think any of it would matter since I have a greatly different idea of how mADCs and juggernauts should work than what Riot plans to do with the group. I don't think they're ever going to work out well when they're all steroids with no utility; sure, a couple champs are fine being damage pumps, but when the entire group is that way you have no distinction other than how they do damage and how much they do. It's a bad model to run with.

You implied that Yasuo was or is in a balanced state by saying that btw, lol.

Yasuo is the best designed melee ADC so far. He isn't perfect, but he's close to the ideal melee carry. He offers a lot of reasons besides his damage to warrant playing him while still having carry potential himself.

All the champions you listed are either fine as they are, were in feast or famine states to begin with or dominated competitive play.

That's the point I was making; a lot of the class-update reworks didn't solve anything or made that issue worse. These champions are either very weak right now or they have been directly nerfed to death by Riot after their changes didn't pan out as expected.

Yes. Skillshots, things that take skill. And delays, things that mean you can't instagib someone by flashing on them, also takes skill.

That's a narrow point of view. Targeted =/= no skill. It takes a lot of time to play Shaco well, and he's entirely targeted damage. Skillshots are also not inherently difficult; I think Ezreal is one of the easiest champions out there, and he's nothing but skillshots.

It's also very uninteresting to just take everything and turn them into skillshots. It makes champions feel very same-y when abilities all have roughly the same speed missiles that all do the same thing, especially when slows get tacked on to every other spell these days.

DengedenDec 23, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=P7TFdGIF,comment-id=00010002000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-22T18:39:36.886+0000)

I don't think any of it would matter since I have a greatly different idea of how mADCs and juggernauts should work than what Riot plans to do with the group. I don't think they're ever going to work out well when they're all steroids with no utility; sure, a couple champs are fine being damage pumps, but when the entire group is that way you have no distinction other than how they do damage and how much they do. It's a bad model to run with.

Since even utility is just another thing that helps do damage at the end of the day, I don't see how that would help. They tried giving Morde utility, look how that helped.

That's the point I was making; a lot of the class-update reworks didn't solve anything or made that issue worse. These champions are either very weak right now or they have been directly nerfed to death by Riot after their changes didn't pan out as expected.

Skarner isn't weak. Neither are Kog, Trist, Shaco or Malz. And I like the new Akali, you can dodge so much stuff with her shroud. The rest.... true but they added diversity to competitive play by seeing play there. That's what you guys wanted, right?

That's a narrow point of view. Targeted =/= no skill. It takes a lot of time to play Shaco well, and he's entirely targeted damage. Skillshots are also not inherently difficult; I think Ezreal is one of the easiest champions out there, and he's nothing but skillshots.

Ez has his passive and targeted abilities are only hard if they require you to use them consistently. Not if you get targeted and lose 50% of your health, which often happens with problematic champions.

It's also very uninteresting to just take everything and turn them into skillshots. It makes champions feel very same-y when abilities all have roughly the same speed missiles that all do the same thing, especially when slows get tacked on to every other spell these days.

If you play those champions, you'll find that's not the case.

Big LincolnDec 23, 20161 votes

Since even utility is just another thing that helps do damage at the end of the day, I don't see how that would help. They tried giving Morde utility, look how that helped.

His utility was really badly implemented. The W changes were at least sort of interesting other than the XP passive and requiring an ally; the dragon ult was just ridiculous.

Skarner isn't weak. Neither are Kog, Trist, Shaco or Malz. And I like the new Akali, you can dodge so much stuff with her shroud. The rest.... true but they added diversity to competitive play by seeing play there. That's what you guys wanted, right?

Skarner isn't weak; Kog'Maw definitely is and I would argue Tristana as well, she's only recently risen above an abysmal winrate and that's because of supports. Malzahar is in a weird spot, but I hate his rework far too much to be unbiased about him, since I lost one of my old favorite mid laners. Akali is 'worse' in the sense that she is probably more feast/famine than she's been in a very long time. I have never seen reworked Akali recover from an early loss, and now that she's buffed, the one game she managed to get fed she was impossible to deal with.

If you play those champions, you'll find that's not the case.

I make an effort to play a lot of champions, since Riot's made an effort of constantly reworking champions I happen to enjoy and making me change mains anyway. I really don't enjoy a lot of those skillshot champs that tend to also be super popular. Ahri, Ezreal and the like; they just come off as really boring and uninspired.

I don't like that Veigar's Q is a skillshot either. That's my biggest issue; every time a targeted ability becomes a skillshot, it gets more range. Then mages that used to be short-range are now mid or long range, and then they all just kind of mesh together, and now Veigar went from a niche short range nuke button to basically a generalist; there is not a team comp that he isn't a good pick for right now. And that's not what I want; I want champions to be wildly different.

DengedenDec 23, 20161 votes

Kog isn't, look at his winrate. ADCs always only win because of supports, ask any high elo ADC main.

Malzahar autopushed the wave without agency.

I don't see how Akali could be worse than before. Her shroud needed the range nerf because pinks no longer spotted her but the rest of the changes really were buffs to her laning.

It's really hard to feel accomplished when playing Ahri or Ez (who, for what it's worth received no major reworks), yes. They're never weak but that has nothing to with their skillshots.

The old Veigar's problem was that he got countered by Mercs and Locket. He was so niche that he was only really a support or a mage that rushed Mobi's and camped bot.

epic edgelordDec 22, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=P7TFdGIF,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-12-21T22:29:17.995+0000)

"We want diversity, but we're not going to nerf Lee Sin, one of the champions who completely decides what the jungle meta will be every time he's good"

I mean I don't find lee sin that strong. I am a lee main so I know the ins and outs of this champion (should give me some cred). But he simply just isn't that over powered, most people get caught out in 1v1's with someone who excels in those types of fighting. And a lot of people also simply don't pay attention to his q. If you do put your mind to it then you should know where lee sin should go and what he wants to do such as, q'ing onto a minion then ward hopping and finally flash kicks you into the enemy team. so if you know where lee sin should go then you should be able to play around that.

And just around has a lot of mobility and i find him just to be a normal jungler but gets fed when people just get caught out by him.

DecritDec 22, 20163 votes

Guys listed no him, he is a random player so knows better

... seriusly, they are doing a great job so far considering that every champion is playable in a role ( with the only edge cases geing kalista and azir, that they stated to have some work on ) and for how much we are or for how much we have ideas we don' t know the full effect they might have if applied. Only riot knows.

We might be occasionally right on some aspects but they are the ones that have to make the bug calls, and it' s an hard job.

Big LincolnDec 22, 20162 votes

they can't even get half of their roster to be played in the esports they keep shilling for

It "works" in SoloQ by virtue of the complete lack of coordination you'll find in that environment

JMoormannDec 22, 20161 votes

I personally prefer having a limited amount of champs in pro play over having a stupidly unbalanced game for over 99% of the playerbase.

DecritDec 22, 20161 votes

Esport is a different world from regular play. There are values that are characteristic only of the pro scene including teams copying each other, restrictions on playable pool to focus on mechanic rather on variance and so on. In few words, more stuff pertaining to the agonistic level rather gameplay or balance level.

It does not mean it' s only the trainers and players fault, but that does enhance a lot the narrowness of pro play picks. To give you an example, DotA has a wider played tournament character pool because most of their characters have shallow mechanics ( except some cases, like Phantom Lancer ) because they hard counter each other, so having a wide pool is pretty much mandatory so it must be easier transfer base mechanics to a character to the other.

Dextix LTDec 22, 20162 votes

Every champion is playable in a role? No. Just no.

And making big calls is a hard job, but at the same time you should fail at it.

Also, the commenter pointed out how hypocritical Riot is on their game balance.

Covert Ops GnarDec 21, 20165 votes

yes

Buff JhinDec 21, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Covert Ops Gnar,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=P7TFdGIF,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-12-21T22:23:29.428+0000)

yes

Haha memes

GigglesODec 22, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Buff Jhin,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=P7TFdGIF,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-12-21T23:10:39.894+0000)

Haha memes

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSapCaoS00rXiaiZfLtHmqIJvns3GaqYCNWcEEIKWwmZeIvpaNsu1-hbkE

CarameI FrappeDec 22, 20165 votes

Riot: "We want our game to be balanced for everyone."

Translation: We want our game to suit players in Diamond and above, and work around their feedback. Anyone below are boosted monkeys whom have no idea what the hell they're talking about. We also will continue to ignore their outcry about LeeSin because he's our poster child that makes LCS / Worlds entertaining to watch and we want out money.

Riot: "We've decided to make some changes to X because it's currently unhealthy"

Translation: We decided champions like Sejuani had enough spotlight time because we're not a fan of that champion ourselves so nerfs will go underway. While we're at it, let's keep Mordekaiser Aatrox Shen at their worst because we want to focus on making skins for upcoming champions that are fan favorites like Ahri Annie Jinx .

............ I love League of Legends and I appreciate Riot, but some of their messages seem like they're trying to contain their true motives and not going about their methods in the best manner possible.