[4.12] Live Gameplay Patch Forecast

RiotLive Gameplay·Jul 4, 2014·15 votes·46,658 views

Hey all,

Welcome to another Patch Forecast from the Live Gameplay team! With the World Championships coming up, our focus for the next few patches will be aimed at competitive play - both in increasing the diversity of picks and hitting those outliers who beat down all meaningful choice in champ select.

As a reminder: these are not promises for what will be in Patch 4.12, rather, they're a forecast of what we are currently working on and the problems we see.

ONWARD!

Ahri: Ahri's a cool fox gal that we'd like to see more of, but she's currently sitting just below the top-tier mid picks. We're investigating ways to make Ahri feel better to play without just tipping her into the perma-pick category (hello S3 worlds).

Alistar: OH BOY. We really want to bring Alistar back up as a support, but our big challenge is to make sure he doesn't also become an insane jungling cow god, because that gets obnoxious. Access to what's essentially a mini-Malphite ult at level 2, combined with powerful tower dives and displacement makes for a worrisome combination that keeps us up at night. Worrying.

Kassadin: This guy. Man.

Lucian: Like we mentioned in the 4.11 patch notes, Lucian is still strong and his super well-rounded nature makes him less of a strategic pick and more of a must-pick. We're really exploring ways to give Lucian meaningful weaknesses while also highlighting some of his core strengths. At this point we probably can't bring along all of his advantages, but we're looking to maintain Lucian's mobility / burst while also highlighting his spellslinger archetype. You'll see more as we go!

Them aggro junglers: Depending on who you talk to, there are roughly 3-5 competitive junglers in the 'very strong' category who are outshining entire categories of dudes (see tanky jungler buffs). That said, we're balancing our approach here to make sure we don't just hit one so the others become default picks, but this gang has such high early aggression that they're still inhibitive in the game. Chances are high we won't have anything for these in 4.12 as we're still watching how the 4.11 jungle item changes have affected the scene, but we have a strong inkling that these dudes will still be around.

Up today we've got Riot Hongyou from the Live Gameplay team to answer some of your questions / comments on the forecast.

569 Comments

0178576592Jul 4, 201437 votes

Why are we so apprehensive to nerf leesin even the slightest bit? He's clearly the biggest issue killing jungler diversity. Why play another jungler when he's amazing early and mid, doesn't need blue, has a reasonable clear, great dueling, great utility, etc?

HellioningJul 4, 201448 votes

Because the Lee Sin mains would cry.

Seriously, that's why Morello said they can't nerf Lee Sin.

RiotHongyouJul 4, 201416 votes

Hey guys, please use paragraphs more. Walls of text are terrible on the eyes :\

Lets go in 4v5Jul 4, 201412 votes

What if Kassadin's ult charged up instead of his E charging up whilst also having a longer cd, but refreshing if it hit a certain stack threshold (6)? That way he has to think about using it when he's not in a teamfight, i.e. in lane. That way in teamfights he's still effective, but after everything starts to die down he has to be more conservative about using it since it's on a longer cd.

RiotHongyouJul 4, 201414 votes

The identity of Kassadin is a high mobility champion. When we look at how to make nerfs to champions with a very distinct identity like , we try to keep their identity intact. We will be looking at other ways of approaching this champion before taking away his mobility.

exec3Jul 4, 201418 votes

But what if his identity is the cause of his problems? What do you do then? It was kind of strange his original rework because all anyone (myself included) hated about him was his few second CD flash which you guys buffed.

RiotHongyouJul 4, 201416 votes

We believe there is a world where Kassadin players can blink around and have fun without being oppressive to his opponents. Maybe it is because we gave him too many tools to go along with his mobility. But we would look into reducing some of them before taking away the cool part of his kit.

HellioningJul 4, 20144 votes

The problem is that mobility is, if not the single most important thing in the game, is highly up there. In order for his mobility to be balanced, he'd have to be much weaker than most other mid options, and you don't seem to want to do that.

Of course, Riot's balance is really bad at making less mobile champions less damaging or supporting than mobile champions. When was the last time you saw an Anivia or Brand?

OnlyEZPlaysJul 4, 20148 votes

last time froggen crushed with it...

KinkyKittyKatJul 4, 20145 votes

However he crushes with Anivia because he knows when to pick her. For example, he picks her when his team has solid CC to amplify Anivia's power or when the enemy team isn't incredibly mobile.

DrawnActorJul 4, 201420 votes

I've been playing this game for close to 5 years now, and I think there's a problem with this way of thinking! Some things in this game, although they are definitely mechanics or thematics, are just inherently powerful because of the lack of access other champions have to increase their power in those areas. Mobility and range are the most important ones, and we have champions that exemplify both of these as a character trait (Kassadin and Caitlyn) and are exceedingly powerful because of it. Even so, Caitlyn doesn't have unlimited range like Kassadin's near unlimited mobility and tends to be easier to balance because of that.

The problem with range and mobility is that you cannot itemize your existing champion to increase these, but there are champions that are inherently more powerful in these areas while still having access to the same items that every other champion has. This makes them inherently more powerful because there is literally no counterplay to range or mobility. In the way this game works if you are being attacked beyond the range of your own abilities or auto attacks you cannot fight back, and you cannot fight someone who cannot be caught unless they want to. Kassadin could tickle for damage, but with the mobility that he has he will always be a threat because you cannot stop him from tickling you. Caitlyn's massive attack range has seen her be a viable pick since her release, because she can literally just out range almost anyone except a level 18 Tristana.

The single problem is that other champions cannot itemize in these areas. You cannot buy blink boots or range extenders, and so the champions that are stronger in those areas while still having access to everything the other champions have access to will simply be conceptually broken. I would like to hear what other people have to say about my post (and especially Riot), so please reply with your thoughts on the matter!

RiotHongyouJul 4, 201413 votes

There have been iterations of Kassadin where he did no damage and was not a threat. Because of how powerful mobility is, history of Kassadin has shown that he is either overwhelming or underwhelming. But this difference in power was not due to changes in his mobility but related to changes in the other aspects of his kit. Therefore we believe there can be a point between A (OP) and B(underwhelming) that is tunable by changing these levers instead.

DrawnActorJul 4, 201411 votes

The reason that a Kassadin with no damage wouldn't be a threat is because if you can't actually lower someone's health bar then you obviously wont be able to impact the game. However, the issue is that if you want to balance excessive mobility, that's the route you have to take.

Mobility is so inherently powerful that giving any power to the rest of his kit (burst, cc, utility) will be overkill in combination. An untouchable burst caster that can never be stopped from bursting the enemy is conceptually broken, but so would an untouchable cc bot or whatever else you could add to his kit. The other problem with excessive mobility or range is that it's incredibly fun to use, but incredibly frustrating to play against. Have you ever had the experience where you're right about to kill someone but they escape with a flash, Nidalee pounce, or Kassadin riftwalk (even repeatedly, in the case of the last two)? It's almost painful.

Keeping Kassadin's excessive mobility in his kit means the rest of his abilities have to be incredibly lack luster to make up for it. It creates a character that is very one dimensional and lopsided, with abilities that wont feel good to use (in the case of a fully balanced character). Curtailing the excessive mobility in his kit means you can make his other abilities much more powerful and meaningful, in other words, create a healthier champion, kit, and gameplay style.

HarrysManorJul 4, 20147 votes

What if Kassadin cannot cast rift walk if he has taken damage with in the last couple of seconds. Making the enemy able to punish him for diving in too deep. This way the CD can remain the same, But using rift walk to engage is a high risk/ high reward tactic.

5G8Nri0B54Jul 4, 20145 votes

That mobility is the cause of his problems though, and often times he leaves no room for counter-attacks, especially if you're an immobile champion whose counter-attacks are delayed, like Vel'koz and Cassiopeia.

Speaking of Cassiopeia, any chance of her getting modernized anytime soon? She's horribly immobile, yet she lacks the tankiness or range to make up for her lack of mobility. Her sole defensive mechanism is a horribly delayed long cooldown ULTIMATE.

She is a relic of an era where you guys hadn't gone out of control with your mobility creep. Or atleast give her a way to recover from accidentally E-ing an un-poisoned opponent simply because she thought she poisoned her opponent, or her final E hit the opponent the second their poison wore off.

Dean MoriartyJul 4, 20145 votes

I like the idea about not punishing a single missed E. It is frustrating to lose virtually 100% of your sustained damage in the middle of a teamfight because of the timing of your E. Giving it a slightly longer cooldown and changing it to be charge-based (storing up to 3 charges, hitting a poisoned target refunds a charge) would allow you to make a mistake and still dole out damage, but not increase her power too much otherwise.

RiotTamfailJul 4, 201419 votes

If the identity of the champion is conditional, e.g. based on hitting other units/champions with the ability, would his identity still be strong/intact?

For example, I'm imagining something like a 10 second cooldown on Riftwalk, decreasing by 4 seconds per champion hit. Perhaps even also decreased by 1 second per minion hit? This incentivizes aggressive play, decreases the power and frustration of fighting against Riftwalk in no minion areas, gives a window for players to respond in teamfights, gives an opportunity for Kassadin to make a high risk play, and (maybe?) still keeps his identity.

We've done something similar with Gragas when his E was on a low cooldown, and I'm wondering if a similar approach could work here.

Edit: Just for context, I'm not on the design team. I'm just curious about this specific issue and the questions about what we can do to make it healthier for the game.

5G8Nri0B54Jul 4, 20143 votes

With Kassadin, this would still be far too oppressive if it's against immobile and highly skill-shot reliant champions like Vel'koz, Brand, Cassiopeia, or anyone who both rely on landing a successful skillshot while lacking the ability to catch him if he flees.

Unless the champions can bait the Kassadin to all-in, chances are even with these changes he will still remain the un-gankable terror that he is as there is no better escape tool than what is essentially a spammable Flash. Even if hitting champions lowers it's cooldown, it's still basically a Flash that is on a FAR lower cooldown than your Flash summoner spell...on top of the Flash spell he might just get for the hell of it anyways.

RiotTamfailJul 4, 20146 votes

I agree that giving CD reduction dependent on hitting minions could cause the Kassadin vs. immobile champions matchup to be fairly lopsided. If we take the minion option away, and keep a CD reduction based on hitting champions (perhaps decreased by 3 seconds per champion hit with a base of 10 seconds), would the function of Riftwalk during the laning phase stay essentially the same?

If it does, is the effect on gameplay for teamfights and midgame roaming an overall net plus for the health of the game?

For these changes to be successful, I think this is all dependent on whether making the core identity of Kassadin conditional (i.e. effectiveness based on hitting other champions with the ability) still keeps his identity intact, which I feel is the first question to answer before we can even consider making Riftwalk's CD conditional.

Perhaps defining the word "identity" is the first step, which seems somewhat challenging since it may not be something you can really objectively define. If defining the word "identity" is impossible, I'm all for discussing whether conditional CD reduction is the right way to go for making Kassadin's gameplay healthier :)

thunderingiceJul 4, 20145 votes

I personally think that Kassidin will always be a bit of a problem so long as his identity is low cd flash with B levels of burst (admittedly lower than before the rework). Most of the jumps in this game have a high cd for a reason. See ez, Liss, corki, not lee sin who is also a problem, cait (on the line), graves, leona, thresh, sej etc. Many of the champs with long cd jumps have been issues and will be again but are a lot easier to bring in line. Ppl with low cd/easily accessible repeated jumps become a lot hard to find the line of "balanced" on. See lb, lee sin, kha, akali, yi, renektons double dash, rengo, shaco (tho he has other design issues as well), yas etc.

Kassadin will probably always be a balancing nightmare so long as his identity is really low cd flash without meaningful limiters. I think instead you should go ahead and redefine his flash to give it more identity. For instance, you could give it more damage or length or some other type of compensation (bonus points if it feels good and is interesting) while never allowing his flash cd below 10-12 seconds even at max level. As an example, Liss is probably the person with the most healthy flash in the game imo as it allows interesting options to people on both sides of the interaction.

This will change his identity without question. But I think it will be a healthy change and one that most people should appreciate if you add an interesting enough/rewarding enough mechanic to replace the ridiculously low cd.

My two cents. Hope it helps.

RiotTamfailJul 4, 20145 votes

Just want to put this here cause I ninja edited it into one of my other posts. I'm not on the design team, and I'm just curious about how to make Kassadin better from a player's perspective.

I think there is acknowledgement across many people that low CD flash is a problem, which then causes him to be a "balancing nightmare". Low CD flash may also be a bad idea for various reasons. However, if Kassadin's identity is so deep rooted into player's minds that having this low CD flash is one of the things that we absolutely cannot change due to how much it would damage players' enjoyment of the champion, what can we do to alleviate the risks and downfalls of having a champion with a low CD flash?

Currently, I think it would be interesting to see what problems arise when Kassadin is given the earlier change I mentioned (10 second base with 3 seconds decreased per champion hit). My hope is that the laning phase would stay the same, and we get the benefit of nerfing Riftwalk in situations where there are no minions.

That nerf could be a successful (successful here meaning we can reduce Kassadin's power, while keeping his identity intact) nerf IF the changes that happen to midgame laning and teamfights are also successful (successful here meaning that there are more interesting gameplay situations that result and also that there are no degenerate gameplay loops that pop up with Kassadin as a result). This seems like something that would be worth testing on PBE than trying to theorycraft it all out.

You mentioned redefining his flash and giving it more identity, which seems like something worth exploring, but I'm not sure I accurately understand what you're trying to communicate here. What type of compensation were you thinking that would give flash more identity?

steng4hJul 5, 201418 votes

The recent changes that have been applied to of his kit are pretty bad overall. I don't get why riot actually does not understand a champion as simple as Kassadin.

Gameplay = mobile assassin Theme = Anti-Mage / Void

You can remove his aoe cc capabilities (does an assassin really need an aoe slow ?)
You didn't know what to do with the "Anti-Mage" theme, so you made it a magic shield. Idea : move shield to W, make it like Fiora's Riposte but for magic damage / spells. This way you can get some more damage in his kit but with nice counterplay.
Add slow to the Q, remove it from E
Make the ult and E mark the enemy with a "Void Mark"
Make his passive do additional damage and/or leach mana when hitting an enemy with a "Void Mark"
Remove the mana scaling on the ult, it generally confuses players as far as itemization goes
Increase mana cost on the ult, drastically. This is more interesting than cooldown, will reduce his roaming and chasing just as much

Disclaimer : I've played hundreds of games with Kass :)

Gaara 0f SandJul 6, 20145 votes

I like this a lot. Well thought out and isn't just a bunch if complaining. I also feel that his W should be the center of his kit, with the mobility just being an added benefit. Slow on Q may need some testing so its has a fair number value. And the damage on the E should be buffed a little to compensate for the loss of the slow perhaps?

RiotTamfailJul 6, 20143 votes

For some reason, I can't reply to steng4h, the post under this one, so I'm going to have to reply here. Anyone have any idea why I can't reply to that post? Both on Chrome and Firefox.

In regards to the post, I think this is a good example of how setting solid goals before making changes allows you to be confident that your proposed changes are doing what you'd like them to. The mobile assassin anti-mage is the set of constraints that you've set for this kit, and it seems like these changes still fall within those constraints.

The mage version of Riposte seems like it would be a fun ability, but I wonder whether it carries any negative gameplay elements that spell shield type abilities bring but we just haven't identified yet. Is punishing a player (dealing damage to him) for doing what we've taught him to do (attack / cast spells) a bad thing? I feel that it's possible that Riposte and a spell version of Riposte could be considered bad design, but I don't have the subject matter expertise to confidently say one way or the other.

In regards to the mark type gameplay, I'm a fan of the mark type interactions that force you to weave in autoattacks to optimize (Riven Q, Lux passive, Lee Sin passive) because of how it punishes impatience. Seems fun.

Of course, there are always tons of things that don't work out in practice, despite it looking good on paper. I feel that this would be a good iteration to test on PBE to see how much it really affects all aspects of the game, instead of trying to theorycraft all the possibilities.

The constraints I set in my proposed change were trying to solve a specific goal and were much less risky. I think your changes were much more successful but risky for fixing his gameplay in one fell swoop. I wonder which approach should be taken in which types of scenarios.

CanastusJul 4, 20149 votes

Soraka Wait, you still don't have ANY updates for Soraka? How much longer are you going to pretend she's 'healthy' after the last gutting she recieved?

What we need are immediate fixes until the rework is done, as soon as possible.

RiotHongyouJul 4, 20146 votes

We are looking at Soraka because as you said, she is in a really weak spot. However being the tons of healing, aoe from the sky, banana throwing unicorn/goat/etc that she is, balancing her without breaking her is a difficult problem. We do not want Soraka back in the mid lane and would like her to stay a support. As a support, her main draw is healing and giving armor/mr, and balancing skills that revolves around that is innately hard due to how much power is actually in the skill versus how good it feels to use.

ChroniclerCJul 4, 20149 votes

(Quick aside. I call them Clerics, because Support is a lane position, not a team role, and they're not Mages or Tanks. Annie ≠ Leona ≠ Janna, even though they all sit in bot lane with the ~~ADC~~ Marksman.)

"We do not want Soraka back in the mid lane..." Why not? In fact, why do you guys seem to throw a fit every time a Cleric does well in any lane other than bot-support, but when a tank intended for top or a mage intended for mid comes down to bot-support, it's "role diversity"? As someone who enjoys playing Clerics, this attitude kind of offends me. Sure, I like playing them bot-support, but what is wrong with them in other positions? Especially when you seem to encourage all the other roles to mix it up with their positioning.

By the by, here's a freebie for your Cleric Pigeonholing Initiative: Lulu's E (Help! Pix!) can't target allied minions. Bam, no more silly Glitterlance trickshot for top and mid Lulu, and bot-support Lulu never has to worry about hitting a minion with her shield instead of an actual ally.

Fox GnomeJul 4, 20142 votes

^^^This. Riot please reply, they have extremely valid points. Soraka and Alistar are being crammed into the support role, a role thats currently rampant with AP Burst, and CC tanks. Why cant we have an Alistar top or Soraka mid? I feel like heals are just another form of utility for a team, and if your team chooses to send a cleric mid then they are just changing up their team strategy, no point in nerfing champions to force them to play one role.

RiotHongyouJul 4, 20146 votes

Alimoo in the jungle and Soraka in mid lane makes it really unfun and frustrating for people playing against them. This is the reason for change, not that we want to stuff them into support.

HemiPoweredDroneJul 5, 20145 votes

I find that hypocritical. There are many champs that are not fun to play against, like Heimerdinger, Teemo, and Yi, why do you not have a problem with them? Why are they allowed to exist when they are just as unfun and frustrating to play against?

ThaddeusMikeJul 5, 20147 votes

I think there are a lot of champions who are more frustrating who Riot has been far less willing to immediately smack down. Lucian, Kassadin, and Nidalee are all recent examples of champions who are very frustrating to play against who I think were given far more time left alone before being nerfed (and in the case of Kassadin then quickly buffed again back to a problem state). I think that champions who are designed as supports are nerfed out of lane more quickly than champions designed as laners. This isn't good design or good balance.

CuixJul 5, 20144 votes

So you gut champions like Soraka and Zyra outside of bot lane, but when Lucian and LeeSin are too strong the approach is "we'll wait on it a while, np"? Where is the consistency? Why was Kassadin not blasted out of mid lane while he had a 100% ban rate? Why was Kayle left entirely untouched for so long and left to completely warp any game which included her? Alistar had like 2 patches in the jungle before getting destroyed, but Leblanc can just invalidate the laning phase in mid for like a year and that's just kinda fine.

CanastusJul 5, 20146 votes

I'd like to know why none of those changes you're looking into ever made it onto the PBE. It really doesn't shine a good light on your efforts, to be honest. All we see from your team are promises but no actions, this has been going on for a LONG time already.

What happened to all those suggestions you recieved those past weeks? Have you even looked into reverting the damage on her Q while adding a damage-reduction to creeps? There are plenty more of those ideas and yet you haven't taken any of them seriously by the look of things.

I've been playing Soraka on my main hundreds of times already which is why I consider myself a dedicated Soraka player who has grown very fond of this champion. Seeing her reduced to be the focus of ongoing ridicule did truly upset me. When will you realize that we don't want to wait for several months just to play our favorite goat again? Soraka

HadrielJul 4, 20148 votes

Any chance of Quinn bugs getting tackled? Here is a list, bumped daily: forums.euw.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1709974

On another topic, I think your approach to competitive junglers is flawed. They're not overpowered in terms of... power... but their power curves fit infinitely better the competitive gameflow. If you hit 40 minutes with Lee Sin, you'll be painfully weaker than Wukong, for example. So you're facing a dillemma where nerfing these champions based on competitive means screwing people across all other levels of play since they aren't strictly OP, and if you choose to shift their power curves, you'll homogenize an entire class of champions. I don't know the answer (maybe it is a matter of empowering the alternatives) and wish you lucidity to know how adress this or when to leave well enough alone.

RiotHongyouJul 4, 20149 votes

You make a really good point about the power curves. However players have told us that they value strategic variety in terms of power curves. Example: Lee Sin's identity is tied to the fact that he is a dominant early game jungler. Lee Sin has been a headache to balance simply because he does fall off late game for the majority of the players but in competitive play, pro players tend to bypass that by using Lee Sin's utility to full potential. We are currently looking to change Lee Sin in a way where he would still fulfill the role of the early powerful jungler while having a noticeable weakness in the late game. We would love to watch how the jungle landscape changes with the new jungle items. We also do not wish to bipolarize the skill versus reward of Lee Sin even more, although that might ultimately be the best answer.

HellioningJul 4, 201416 votes

The problem with 'weak late, good early' champs is that they are guaranteed to get their time in the sun where they can wreak havoc on the enemy jungler and generally do tons of cool shit, and by the time they fall off, the other four members of their team are probably stronger than their counterparts on the enemy team due to the advantage that the early game gave them. Contrast that to 'weak early, good late' champs who have to hope that the rest of their team doesn't fail miserably while they get up to speed.

Also, Lee's problems aren't his power curves, it's how much stupid shit you guys put on his kit. Two stealth reveals! A bunch of spell vamp and lifesteal! TWO DASHES! He's numerically balanced, but of course Lee can outplay an Amumu when Lee has so many more skills they can outplay their opponent with.

XyltinJul 4, 20145 votes

I would actualy start with his base stats.

Lee has 513 + 85 /lvl (lvl 1 + HP/lvl). That is as much as Malphite, who is a tank.
Lee also gets nearly the same Armor (2.05 + 0.05 /lvl more for Malphite).
Lee also ahs the way better MS, even when he has 2 mobility skills and 2 forms of CC.
also a very good base AD (55.8 + 3.2 /lvl)

I would not do too much on these stats, but lowering his early HP by aronund 10-20. AD could be pretty easy to touch (people said that Lee doesn't AA, so AS won't help him. if that was true, then base AD should also not matter except for a slightly slower jungle clear speed). Hitting MS would do a lot.

I also think that the buff that Riot wanted to give to his passive would have been a good way to make Lee more balanced. But I would prefer 40/50/60% instead of 40/70/100%. Because here, we don't want to remake him, but nerf him.

Now to his kills:

Sonic Wave now has a 13-9 sec CD, but if he casts the Resonating strike, the CD will go down by 2 sec That should punish him a bit harder if he misses his Q. Should not affect him too much
Iron Will now gives 8/12/16/20/24 Armor/MR for 4 seconds instead of LS/SV LS and SV were needed when the jungle was way harder. Armor/MR needs a way better timing and the dmg will stick to him a bit more

Riot wants to preserve his gameplay pattern, so you can't actually change his mobility mechanics.

But they could lower the range of Q/Q and W by 100/100 and 50. Both ranges are actually pretty high (1100/1300 and 700). His Q is a mana free skill, so casting it has no long term effects (he won't go oom like a Morgana or Lux who spam their skill shots). The Q CD is not really high and the dmg and possible mobility are also super strong. So even as a skill shot, it is super, super powerful. His W is a 40-200 HP shield, what isn't that much in the first place, but it can hit 2 targets, what makes it 400 and it is only one part of the skill. So again, very powerful overall, but also very easy to use due to the high range. 50 less range means the Insec is still possible, but a tick harder to do.

SulfuricJul 4, 20148 votes

Karma, and probably a bunch of other champions, has a thing where her abilities "disappear" after she dies. For example, if you Mantra > Q, and then die, the mantra-aoe circle goes away. This sometimes causes me to lose a kill that I would normally have gotten if it didn't go away. Think you could fix this bug for me?

Also, since Karma's ult isn't a true "ability" in the sense that casting it alone does nothing, can we make Karma's Mantra castable while affected by CC similar to GP orange or Alistar ult? I wrote a short article explaining why here if you're interested but the tl;dr is that it's a hoop that only Karma players must jump through and causes the player to fight game mechanics rather than their opponent: http://supersulf.tumblr.com/post/73753880627/league-of-legends-and-game-design

RiotRiot King CobraJul 4, 20146 votes

Why have there been no moves to give Cassiopeia some QoL changes? I don't think she needs any significant buffs, but why is Ahri prioritized when she's been seen in and outside of competitive play for the past 2 seasons? Cassio has made about 3 appearances in the last 2 seasons combined and one of them was as a "fun" pick on OMG's team in World's.

VarphJul 4, 20142 votes

Ever laned against a good Cassio? I know 2 of them at D1 and let me tell you this, they literally can't lose lane.

RiotRiot King CobraJul 4, 20148 votes

Yes. I am Diamond 1. I have the most Cassio games in North America. I have literally thousands of games with her. I rarely lose lane with her and she doesn't need buffs. She needs QoL changes like I said - changes that make her less punishing and risky to play without increasing her overall power.

For example, lowering the general CD of Twin Fang isn't really a buff (I mean it technically is but it isn't increasing her power) since if you're playing Cassio well you won't mess up TF's CD. 5 seconds of no damage though is HUGE and a big reason why she isn't played in competitive play. She's insanely punished if she messes up her Twin Fang spam and in today's League where every other champion has multiple mobility spells I think 5 seconds is a little ridiculous. This is especially apparent to me when champions like Syndra, Ziggs, and Orianna exist who bring a lot of damage AND utility while outranging Cassio.

Will lowering the CD of her Twin Fang break her and make her OP? I highly doubt it, but it'd make her a bit more forgiving.

VarphJul 4, 20142 votes

I don't agree with that, lowering TF CD... what's to stop her just using it as poke whenever she wants if it is a lower CD. Targeted spell with decent range would be obnoxious even without landing the poison.

I also don't agree with comparing a champion to 3 of the most ridiculous mages(Orianna isn't that bad imo) in the game to make them seem weak.

RiotRiot King CobraJul 4, 20146 votes

Making Twin Fangs CD 4 seconds instead of 5 seconds isn't going to suddenly make it a viable poking tool in lane. It's only a 700 range spell that does 190+.55 AP at max rank and it costs 90 mana. Cass's Q poke is less expensive and more damaging as it is.

Those three champions are the only "immobile" mid laners that are picked in competitive play. Orianna and Syndra aren't ridiculous either in my opinion. Both are strong picks and excel at what they are designed to do. They aren't overbearing and have clear strengths and weaknesses. I would argue that Ziggs is too strong because he has safety, damage, waveclear, utility, and more in his kit, but Riot is on top of him.

I didn't try to make Cass sound weak. I even said she doesn't need buffs. She needs QoL changes similar to what Syndra had that makes her the lightest bit less risky to pick so it is worthwhile for professional players to pick her up and she can fulfill her niche of being a source of constant magical DPS. Right now, why should a pro pick her when they can pick Ryze or Karthus? All she has over them is a stronger lane and she can't even abuse that in competitive play where mid laners are forced to farm out of fear of jungler interference.

EDIT: Higher up on this page, somebody suggested a charge based Twin Fang (max 3 charges) that refreshes a charge upon hitting a poisoned target and upping the base CD of Twin Fang. This sounds pretty cool. Just saying. :3

SheerowJul 8, 20146 votes

For Ahri, why not make her Q be able to be recast making it return early? It's completely awkward to use when you're in the opponent's face and trying to all in them quickly. Ahri is about punishing her opponent drastically when she charms them so why should she be punished herself (especially since the opponent walks closer to you when charmed so its harder to use your orb and get both hits)?

I think this would be good as it doesn't really buff her since she doesn't do more damage, it just allows her to do it more consistently.

maksiimusJul 8, 20144 votes

This would actually be a very good QoL change.

JingerbeardmanJul 9, 20143 votes

that is actually a pretty good idea!

XJake MasterXJul 4, 20144 votes

Hi i main Lulu support and i would like to talk about her.

A few patches ago when you nerfed lulu mid, you said you felt like you were overnerfing lulu support and that you were going to change her again to improve lulu as a support but since then no changes were made to favor lulu support.

She is still obvious very strong as top or mid laner, so you only acomplished to nerf her as a support.

I feel like her overall kit and cc is amazing and shouldnt be changed because that is what makes lulu.

I believe you should nerf her overall ap ratios on her skills and buff the base damage values a bit.

This would make it so that lulu would be able to be more impactul as a support without being able to stomp at other roles.

I would really love if you could give me an answer on what are riot thoughts about her and if you are planning on changing her soon and what would be your focus when changing her.

Ps: My formating sucks and english is not my mother tongue so dont expect much xD

RiotHongyouJul 4, 201410 votes

We are looking at Lulu because she is currently oppressive in top lane. However, we don't want to purely nerf her. Our goal is to make her solo laning worse while making support Lulu better. We are experimenting some changes around wave clear and to give her incentives to have a lane partner.

Im Not Maokai Jul 4, 20141 votes

Why can't we just let Alistair be a jungle? He could be a top tier jungler.

RiotHongyouJul 4, 201415 votes

When Alimoo is a good jungler, he creates an unhealthy gameplay pattern where he can boop you out of turret safety as part of his gank as early as level 2. We would like to avoid this pattern because historically it has been problematic and snowbally.