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[9/11/2014] Live Gameplay Forecast!

RiotLive Gameplay·9/11/2014, 10:25:26 PM·27 votes·142,927 views

Saludos Invocadores!

Spinning these Patch Forecasts back up as more changes come hurtling to the PBE. In the future we'll be experimenting with the forecast to see what's the best way to communicate pre-PBE changes, but for now we've got some neat things on the way that we wanted to talk about.

The overarching narrative for this patch is to reduce stagnation in the live environment by targeting highly banned champions and (finally) looking at those champs who make for a low-counterplay game (looking at you Talon). Speaking to the latter (low counter play dudes), it's worth mentioning they've always had low counterplay, but that we've traditionally let them be due to their low visibility and (occasionally) lack of current-meta strengths. More below!

There's also the GLORIOUS EVOLUTION of Viktor with his gameplay update (PBE friends, check that that feedback thread: http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/KiVchOFE-central-feedback-thread-for-viktor-gameplay-update) and the still-glorious-but-not-named-glorious evolution of Soraka with a larger gameplay update of her own (PBE friends, once again: http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/HitgrQNm-soraka-rework-feedback-thread).

So some forecasting:

There are a few oppressive champions out there who have been climbing the ladders in terms of ban rates, play rates, and win rates, and we've finally decided to get into the weeds to make them a bit healthier to play against. Between 4.17 and 4.18 you can expect some small changes to champs like Akali, Talon, Yasuo, and Fiora (oh man Fiora), with most focused on reducing some in their low-counterplay abilities (maybe not eliminating, but reducing at the very least).

Speaking of strong dudes, there's a few more on our radar that we wanted to address specifically:

Nidalee - Cat lady's doing pretty well in all levels of play, specifically when she's thrown into top lane as a low counterplay bruiser-bully. We're looking for ways to reduce some of Nidalee's high AD / auto-attack focused strengths while maybe giving some love back to her AP bruiser / AP burst builds.

Tristana - Don't really need to say much beyond this, but Trist's pretty good right now. Specifically her early / mid-game tradeoffs just aren't being made when she's got such a monster lategame potential. We're looking for ways to fix this, specifically by adding windows to actually beat her up throughout the game.

Kha'Zix: As an opportunistic assassin, Kha'Zix's gone back to his missile-bugging days of prioritizing W to poke away at people. Given W's got tons of utility already piled on top of it (slow, vision, aoe), we're a little concerned that as missile-bug picks up, Kha'Zix will go back to losing a lot of his counterplay, especially since he can poke for high damage on grouped up individuals. We'll be keeping a close eye on Kha'Zix as our changes develop, but if he needs help assassinating people, we're prepared to give him some love in those areas!

Rammus - Not really a nerf or a huge buff, but just in case anyone mining PBE files gets confused, we're making it so that Powerball and Defensive Ball Curl can now overlap by 1 second, so if you use one to cancel the other you get 1 second to consider your mistake before it actually happens.

LeBlanc - LeBlanc changes! Since we removed the silence from her sigil of... malice, LeBlanc hasn't been in the best of places. We're looking for ways to give LB a bit more power in a healthy way, so we're talking more deception and cleverness rather than more damage.

And that's it for this forecast! Remember that we've got champion update forecasts going on with their own separate contexts here:

Viktor: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/2Hxh1fnf-the-truer-evolution-3rd Soraka: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/BTP5uwf1-this-rework-is-going-to-be-bananas-soraka-rework-preview-and-discussion

As for followup discussions, today we'll be throwing Riot Jag into the mix to answer any followup questions you may have.

265 Comments

RiotPWYFF9/11/2014, 10:29:57 PM45 votes

I am effectively commenting on myself, but I'd like everyone to agree that saludos invocadores is an excellent thing to lead every conversation with.

Hadriel9/11/2014, 11:39:09 PM31 votes

I usually agree with the spirit of the changes you propose, even though some times I disagree with the way you go about them, but I have to say, the fact that you're targeting Kha'Zix again is, if anything, a sign you've been going about him the wrong way, and at worst, a blatant display of an inability to execute a champion.

This has to be the first iteration of Kha'Zix that I'd find hard to argue as oppressive, and evidently you do too since, word for word, you're planning a nerf because he uses evolved W again. Not because W is particularly overpowered but just because it is used. A leap of logic between W being prioritized again and, somehow, Kha'Zix supposedly losing his counterplay by having such a skill while providing added utility... which you gave them to compensate for the removal of his execution damage on Q, consistently good damage on non-isolated Qs and the sorely missed damage reduction taken from his ult. What gives? How is counterplay being reduced by W if "lack of counterplay" in Kha's history has been defined as a disregard of the isolation mechanic as a gating tool, extraordinary durability without sacrificing inventory spots for top tier damage and poor windows of opportunity to properly react to his stealth, all of which have been tended to in a long, grueling series of nerfs? How can you argue you're worried he'll somehow lose his counterplay if he's able to do "high AOE damage" on a skill that does 235 base damage + bonus AD when the only way that skill can produce high damage is sacrificing any semblance of tank stats --- counterplay?

I don't know how sound or light these nerfs are, but I have to say regardless you are disrespecting the people who play this champ. I haven't in a very, very long time because you don't seem to understand in a game where obtaining and mastering champions is the product of time and dedication, continually hitting them feels like a devaluation of said time and effort, which is why people react negatively to changes to their preferred champions. If you knew that, you'd understand why nerfing Kha'Zix, or anyone, for consecutive patches with no end in sight has got to be the worst experience I, and many like me, have had as a player and why I have long since stopped using him, and especially now that he's being targeted when seemingly he had finally hit a point of being healthy using weak arguments. It feels bad, because if you had done your job of correctly balancing this champion once and for all, the people who play it, who I can't include myself in anymore, wouldn't have to suffer through disappointment with every patch that comes out.

Canastus9/11/2014, 10:45:25 PM13 votes

Cassiopeia What about Cassiopeia, won't we see any numbertweaks or buffs for her? Haven't you been following the discussion in RiotStashu's thread so far? It's quite apparent that the majority of her playerbase shows a strong dislike towards the changes.

I, myself, have invested quite some time into exploring that new Cass (been playing her literally nonstop since the rework) and I can confirm every single concern regarding her performance. She desperately needs to see some changes.

/!\ Most importantly, what'll become of the bugged refresh on her E (0.7s instead of 0.5s)? This is an issue which requires immediate attention. It makes a HUGE difference in her dps if you haven't realized it yet.

tfw no gf9/11/2014, 10:41:18 PM10 votes

More Kha nerfs... Pls no.

GigaBreaker889/11/2014, 10:29:37 PM9 votes

Can we expect the Poppy gutting for this patch?

Balnagghar9/12/2014, 1:42:01 PM6 votes

Ok, so... I'm semi new to this game, only been playing a few months, but have pretty solidly dedicated myself to Kha'Zix. I love the lore, I love the concept, and even though you blatantly confuse the words Evolve and Mutate, I let it slide and enjoy playing my beloved voidreaver.

I've noticed a pattern of build-killing with Kha'zix, that seems contrary to your design goals. You often try to support a variety of builds instead of pigeonholing into one. There are 3 basic builds: Bruiser, Q-Based Assassin, W-based poke. It should be noted that the last two often overlap, its just a question of which comes first.

You killed Bruiser. Whatever, that's fine. I don't think removing what I still consider to have been an off-build was necessary, but that's OK.

You've made it fairly clear you want him to rely on his Q, but the problem is you also killed his laning, forcing him to rely heavily on his W for the actual jungling process. While I am not complaining, the issue here is that if he is relying so heavily on it, he will evolve it, and use it in the actual game, as opposed to trying to split his strengths, that's simple efficiency.

If you intend to nerf his W yet again, I need to know that you're going to compensate him somehow. ATM, his ultimate is too weak to be worth leveling, and if you nerf his W's evolution yet again, he will simply have a dead evolution point. If you must do anything to it, hit the utility - get rid of the vision again or something. It's something I love, but I will live without the TF utility to prevent you from blatantly murdering his jungling and ganking capabilities early game - because that's where he really shines.

On Isolation In Team Fights:

You rely heavily on isolation. I know it, you know it, and the enemy team knows it. What I have noticed is very brief periods of people isolating and unisolating themselves, it's very rare to see someone stay isolated for more than a few seconds until the TF has already mostly wrapped up. The way the mechanic works currently, it lends itself to more of a cleanup playstyle than an opportunistic one.

The current W helps a bit with that, as people spread out to avoid the missiles, they will occasionally isolate themselves, lending you the opportunity to go in, and actually accomplish something in the fight, or at least allowing you to contribute with some poke.

Maybe I'm not making the best case, I don't have numbers, or data, and my experience is primarily anecdotal at a relatively low skill level.

But I think Kha'Zix's kit is fine where it is, and very cohesive. His main kill potential is his Q, and his E allows him to make use of that often short window of opportunity for him to use his Q. His W allows him to have something to do when waiting to use his other abilities, and the harass can make less coordinated teams split and create the window. It is in no way allowing him to "Brute Force" through teams, the damage is simply not high enough, I've tried pure spikes builds and it simply isn't. His R is a decent escape/chase tool, but not the engage it used to be.

You're currently fulfilling all known design goals. Please, leave my Kha'Zix alone. Thank you for your time.

Inx9/12/2014, 2:41:11 AM6 votes

ok, someone needs to explain this to me. When did fiora become something people care about. In the three-ish years I've played she's never been considered more than trash, and now she's considered broken? And if she's a priority, why did her rework get pushed aside for victor's?

Daen9/11/2014, 10:33:26 PM5 votes

Great that you guys are doing this!

With the changes to Akali; is the overall goal to nerf her slightly while removing the counterplay issues she has, or more along the lines of adding counterplay in exchange for strength in other ways?

Shinjusuke9/12/2014, 12:02:46 AM5 votes

It's been said, but this assassin hate BS needs hotfixed when you inevitably overnerf a bunch of champions. We've sat through an entire goddamn season of you guys dumping on assassins, and hey, look, another wave incoming.

We shouldn't have to wait months for changes, if they come at all, when you guys WAY overnerf the only champion class that has definitive success/failure scenarios. Seriously, if you nerf an assassin to the point where they have to be crazy ahead or crazy more skilled to do the most basic part of their job (ASSSASSINATING PEOPLE), they're literally a waste of a champion slot on the team.

If there's a time when you guys better be willing to deploy hotfix balance changes, these next few patches better damn well be it, because a lot of us are sick of being indirectly told that our champions are just outright not wanted in the game by Riot's balance team.

That said, there are some major outliers that have been on the brink of OP for awhile but remained untouched, I and I think many others recognize that, but some of the champions you guys have listed (cough Kha'zix cough) have seen nothing but hate from you guys for a long time.

When you inevitably go too far with these "changes", don't make us wait weeks for a fix. Get a fix live immediately. We've done an entire season of waiting only to be met with more nerfs.

A month to see your favorite champions (or in this case it looks like it'll be an entire group of them) is way too freaking long when all they ever seem to get is nerfs, unless this is secretly an attempt to make all the assassin players leave out of frustrationg :P (that was a joke).

I'm talking, like, a week, two at the most, guys. Seriously.

And don't use the phrase "we'll keep an eye on ..." any more, please. All it does is depress the people who've seen it used by you guys a billion times as a PR way to avoid ACTUALLY fixing the problem when you make one. You guys are like.. 0/6, iirc, on "we'll keep an eye on ..." actually being followed through on in less than a season-long timeframe. Just do it guys. Please. Begging you here. Don't give us the "we're waiting to see how these changes play out" load of crap, because it's incredibly obvious to anyone with any mastery of the champion when you have hit their performance too hard. Don't hide behind excuses this time and GET FIXES OUT THERE when the inevitable happens.

Raiyn9/11/2014, 10:51:02 PM5 votes
  1. Why are you nerfing Kha'Zix. W has more than enough counterplay when not evolved, when evolved it doesn't have counterplay - fair but at the same time...none of his abilities have counterplay. Your crew made a near 0 counterplay champion (His Q is about it isolation dmg wise and maybe his R with wards). Either Kha Zix jumps in and he gets a kill or he doesnt. Right now he jumps in and MAYBE gets a kill.

If you nerf his W he will not be played anywhere. It will literally go from >sometimes this champion gets a kill to > this champion never kills aynthing because his damage his abysmally low play any other assassin to be better than him.

  1. Talon changes are "nerfs" just call them what they are, you're going to gut him so he can't be played anymore OR you're going to rework him to the point where we wont recognize him.

  2. Akali...............heh and here I thought the queen of not being balanced was finally balanced. Guess not. Same problem as Kha Zix - she essentially has 0 counterplay and to give her counterplay would make her an irrelevant champion pick - AKA pick another assassin.

  3. Fiora

....Fucking finally

  1. Nidalee

.....I predicted that top laners such as myself would have to suffer through her for about a month before you guys at riot did anything. I was proven correct. Thanks for ruining top lane for me and others who don't abuse OP top lane bruiser nidalee for a month. You guys sure are nice -_-

Regardless I hope you guys actually take care in the balancing of all these very delicate champions, don't do anything irrational like... Make AP bruiser nidalee viable...where she hurts with spears, AAs, Everything. Where top laners are just like "Welp can't build MR cause the ADC will wreck me and nida is running Triforce anyways".

Gunslinger7449/16/2014, 10:04:07 AM3 votes

I remember when I liked to play Khazix because I was actually able to kill people. Now, you can barely survive in the jungle, nevermind compete with a Rengar. He was changed, we adapted. He was nerfed, we adapted. He was nerfed again, we adapted. Now he's being nerfed again. And we're out of evolution points.

Khadroma Seren9/11/2014, 11:56:34 PM3 votes

(I'm going kinda off topic here, but since it has to do with upcoming patches, I give it a shot.)

2 Patches ago, you mentioned something about Corki, that their would be something coming for him "soon". Can we expect something like that this patch or the next one, or was it just a hint towards the Fnatic skin he would receive?

More on-topic: Kha'Zix. I am really curious about what route you want to take him now, if you decide to nerf him. He has been nerfed on every single evolution and tactics people have come up with, yet they still come up with a new tactic in which he can get his optimal usage. If you are gonna nerf him on one of these evolutions again (his W probably, as the text indicates), what way do you want to push them in the direction in which Kha wouldn't be in a stronger than usual? Keep nerfing and mixing up every ability and evolution doesn't seem very productive, as seen in the history of this champion. Also, wouldn't this mean a sort of cycle start again, in which Kha'Zix players are forced to play the champion, yet still he receives nerfs on the abilities and evolves that ARE already weaker/ behave different than usual?? How would you like to take him away from this path, and make him a champion which is fine in his own specific playstyle, yet doesn't seem to strong in every way they have to change him, and is a stable force with clear pro's and con's?

Scorpionex9/13/2014, 6:07:56 AM3 votes

The thing with Kha is he is loved by a lot of people and needs to be able to do his job without the poke you so insistently say is bad, but when you do that he's got no counter play on the amount of damage he does. I'd like to honestly see an execute kinda in the form of zed and his passive where the lower the target is the more his q does, but don't make %dmg so he can actually be built against.

On another note you can't just delay damage on all assassins without making them all feel like zed they all have to have their own way of doing a fast amount of damage to take out the carries. The delay though is what many people say makes him a balanced assassin because you know when its coming and you better cleanse it or zhonya's or do something or you will die.

There is always a tug and pull between what his healthy for the game and what is good for diversity of the game. While having every assassin have damage based on a timer would be very healthy for the game it would be really bad for game diversity.

On another note, why is it that adc mains are the first one to qq assassins are to strong....hmmmm lol....joke :P....

Assassins should be able to zero their opponents carries with little to no counter play from the actual person being jumped on that is why it is a team game you should have to rely on your supp to stun or zilean to ult you or have your ga pop or pop your zhonya's to just make it so the assassin is a sitting duck and not doing much.

Idk....my few cents On a different though very related subject...please give some power back to Diana she desperately needs a little love to hold her till her rework...please and thankyou

Divewing9/16/2014, 7:02:36 AM3 votes

The overarching narrative for this patch is to reduce stagnation in the live environment by targeting highly banned champions and (finally) looking at those champs who make for a low-counterplay game (looking at you Talon). Speaking to the latter (low counter play dudes), it's worth mentioning they've always had low counterplay, but that we've traditionally let them be due to their low visibility and (occasionally) lack of current-meta strengths. More below!

^This is your own fault for nerfing whoever get's popular. Talon low counterplay? Maybe if he's fed sure, but everything is strong when it is fed. I don't really know where you look at for these nerf lists but I get the feeling it is from watching low elo solo queue. Talon is strong against the long-range-skillshot based champions where he can take advantage of missed skills very easily, but this is all part of champion selection. If you take lux, be ready for a talon pick, crying about it afterwards is silly when you, as a player, should be ready for counter-pick possibilities. It's only in bronze and silver where no one cares about counter-picks, instalock katarinas etc. The meta mid lane at the moment is long-range-skillshot champions, of course talon will be high priority. The meta always changes as a result of nerfs or over the top buffs, rather than nerfing whatever's popular to the ground, why not strengthen something else. Very few champions truly have little/no counterplay, leblanc was one because of the silence and her re-distortion-safety combo, but talon certainly has counterplay. What scares me the most about this thread though is the mention of Yasuo. Yasuo has counterplay, but no-one seems to really care, they just jump straight to infinity edge-shiv yasuo is OP, nerf it. Lissandra doesn't give 2 hoots about yasuo mobility in lane, unless he gets fed somewhere else or camped for by the jungler....it won't be a very pleasant lane for yasuo, LeBlanc can silence Yasuo even without her silence (yes that was a joke). Most of your champion nerfs aren't needed, what is needed is for the players to be more respectful of their opponent and the champion said opponent is, or potentionally could be, playing. Perhaps nerfing everything really is the only way to balance things out, but something is always going to be good, confusing that with "lttle or no counterplay" sounds like a low elo queue player crying over katarina camping the bot lane when they have no vision, it has absolutely nothing to do with katarina's counterplay. What follows now is going to be my own opinion, so this could be a little biased: What about Fizz trollpole? This is moving more away from counterplay and more into the lee sin region, ie: "Oops, i cant actually do this, thats fine, i can just kick and safeguard away" Lee sin, Udyr, and Fizz have been my pet hates for this reason, they get away so often for screwing up, in most case scenarios, if you jump into a fight you can't win, you will probably die for it, those 3 just kick, troll pole, or stun-and-get-the-hell-out-at-mach 5. You often mention counterplay when nerfing a champion, but what about this. Getting away with something you deserve to have coming for you almost 100% of the time? If I was totally honest, I would have to say that what you said of "they've always had low counterplay" Isn't really true. They just weren't often played so no one knew how to deal with them. Now that they are, instead of pointing out their weaknesses, they just get hit with a giant nerf bat. Things like Kassadin (with his ultimate), and the pre-mentioned LeBlanc silence, Nidalee spear width, were things that actually needed it, and were worked well. I genuinely don't think Talon needs a nerf considering how little impact he has when even slightly behind, and in all honesty, it looks more like silences in the mid lane are being targeted, both Kassadin and LeBlanc needed it (I play LeBlanc and that nerf frustrated me immensely, but I knew it was needed so I let it go), continuing in comments