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@Riot Can we talk about Garen?

ÔneWindyBoi·2/17/2014, 9:35:15 PM·11 votes·917 views

There's already a fairly productive thread about this on GD, but since I know you prefer this over the forums I'm bringing it here. So far the general consensus is that Garen's passive and W feel underwhelming and that his ult has weak base damage at rank 1 and its cooldown is ridiculous at rank 1. Also a source of frustration to many Garen players is the self slow when spinning in a minion wave.

Personally, I feel that while Garen functions well as a lane bully (this is probably only true because top lane is filled with melee casters, exactly the kind of champions that Garen likes to bully) he brings almost nothing to a teamfight. Even though his most reliable damage is AoE it feels like he never gets to get more than 1 or 2 people with it. Apart from that, the speed boost on his Q is underwhelming compared to other, similar mechanics (i.e. Udyr) and with the mobility creep in this game it doesn't help him dive onto enemy carries like he should be able to. Even though I don't feel that Garen should do tons of damage late game (because he's meant to stomp laning phase) I feel like he should bring some more utility to a teamfight. Comparable champions that are supposed to bully lane but still bring utility are those like Darius and Renekton.

So the questions I have are, how do Riot and other players feel about this? What kind of tweaks can be made to modernize Garen a bit? What do we like/dislike about Garen as he is now?

The Garen discussion on GD: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4287996

16 Comments

Veraska2/18/2014, 12:37:41 PM3 votes

Remember in season 3 when Garen was strong? he had so much sustain and no real resource system that he could trade infinitely in lane with no real cost, while building almost straight tank, when garen is stronger then he currently is he can be problematic, at least from my experience and that comes from just how straight forward his kit is

Garen lacks strong outplay and counterplay potential on his kit, because all of his abilities just do what they're described to do 100% of the time, he walks up, uses all of his abilities, and walks away waiting on cooldowns,rinse repeat.

this is a downside for Garen though as it's rather difficult to show off any sense of player skill with his kit because of how directly efficient it is.

theres a lot of weird things about garen that don't make sense to some people, why does his ult do magic damage, why is it's cooldown so high? why does his E do reduced crits? why does his ult scale so weirdly (capped damage that scales with the enemies missing health) and not just % missing health? and a lot of these things are put in place to keep him balanced, because there is no realistic room for error when playing as Garen,

this is all just my perspective at least

Red Ryu2/18/2014, 7:53:00 AM2 votes

Mobility creep is a part of why Garen is not favored, but I can see this as being a reasonable weakness if it is balanced right, the issue is right now Range has such a large advantage over Melee.

If someone wants to kite Garen, it's not hard. Wait for him to Q, so he can remove a slow, then slow/stun/etc him.

The Crit part of his E needs either to be removed for something else or for itemization to make sense for it to be built.

Though I do think part of this is an issue because Last Whisper is just better overall than anything Crit could bring to him late game.

I don't completely agree with the utility part. He has utility, it's more a question of if he can get it off or is it relevant.

His Q stopping a caster based assassin or bruiser is a great way to stop someone from killing a carry or on the front lines when a silence is going to stop someone from making a large play. Stopping Katarina Ult/Morg Ult/Zed if you can catch him with a Q fast enough. Silence is something actually more rare in League and I'm pretty sure he is the only Fighter that can do that.

Black Cleaver is a must buy no matter who he is up against, even more so since it does bring utility for his team. Reducing someones Armor is a huge help for your ADC to get better damage on a tank.

He does need help but it's hard to find the point where, he is overbearing like when his W was a Total Armor and Magic Resist so he was so tanky people couldn't deal with him. Vs not enough.

He isn't a ball of stats like some Fighters are in league, he has a clear game-play pattern and ideal style to him.

SinnerMagnius2/17/2014, 11:26:15 PM2 votes

Garen was probably the 3rd champion I ever owned and it honestly saddens me to see the state of him. I know Riot have tried looking at him in the past but it only ever seems to be trying to push him into being a niche crit tank which just doesn't have a place in leaguge. Bruisers can't really afford to be throwing money into crit when he needs the tank stats to survive in team fights and some armor pen from LW or BC if he has the money.

I'd love to see him get a complete change on Q for a start since as you say it's pretty lacking compared to other similar mechanics. If it wasn't for his status as an iconic beginner champion I'd suggest making it a skill shot of some kind so he can at least make some plays after laning phase and also tone down his lane bullying at the same time seeing it'd be able to be blocked by minions.

I also have never cared too much for his W. It's nice and all if I snowball hard enough and makes me feel like an unkillable juggernaut but it's never really been part of what I've appreciated about him. There's a lot of really cool stuff that could be done with a character like Garen but the W just feels boring.

AquaDragon422/18/2014, 5:18:55 AM1 votes

I just wish that they would increase the range of Garen's ult in addition to lowering the CD. The range is smaller than the dashes of most champs, meaning it is easy to keep away from it. Also I think his passive is weak compared to that of other champs. Garen's passive can only proc while out of battle, while Renekton, Trundle and Mundo get the most of their heals while in battle. Garen feels a bit out-dated compared with other champs.

I also don't see the point of allowing crit on his spin. His passive and kit screams "build me as a tanky bruiser with Black Cleaver and plenty of health, MR and armor", crit just seems tacked on there and is most likely not a smart item choice to go for.

Pollyanna Wright2/18/2014, 5:59:48 AM1 votes

In general if he could afford to build at least 1 damage item I think he would be ok. Can't tho without blowing up like a wet paper bag.

Pajamasalad2/18/2014, 6:03:45 AM1 votes

I always regret picking Garen. He's alright in laning. Really not as strong a bully as people pipe him up to be, or at least has felt that way when I've played him. Late game it doesn't even matter whether I fed or got fed, my spin tickles everyone but the ADC, and I can't exactly get in range to hit the ADC. Not worth suiciding as the frontline to shred a bit of HP off them with my derp spin. You're just kinda there as a large, spinny cannon minion.

Logros2/17/2014, 10:24:11 PM1 votes

I feel like you nailed a bit of it on the head. Mobility creep has been the biggest problem. I know that when flashes distance was nerfed I felt it harder on Garen than on any other champion because I often have to use it as an initiation, without which, I cannot ever manage to get to the back line and get the caster or carry.

SantanaTheSlick 2/18/2014, 3:40:54 PM1 votes

make his ult gobal like jinx's ult then he would be fun to play damn sure the cool down isn't worth using it once

Lady Luck2/18/2014, 3:26:41 AM1 votes

I've honestly just begun playing top lane... And started playing Garen because I've gotten two skins via mystery gifting. And it's only been on this account which isn't 30 yet. So my experience is limited.

However, I have enjoyed him in the few games I've played. The lack of resources encourages interaction with the enemy (who is often resourceless at the moment as well.)

I really enjoy the silence on his Q, as long as I can position well before the fight starts so I may actually reach an individual. But I agree that the speed boost feels lack luster. I can't react to a fight to silence my desired target unless I'm set up for it. I just can't reach the person which is kinda sad compared to all the other characters with dashes, jumps, etc.

I don't mind slowing down when going through minions when spinning. It just seems logical to me that you'd get some trade off for being able to run through them. (Do you still get slowed if you have a Phantom Dancer so you ignore unit collision?)

My biggest issue with Garen is his ult. It takes a rather long time to cast given the short range you have to be to cast it. As a result people can get away with a sliver and I can't catch them for the last hit if I misjudged the ult damage. Worst case scenario happens when I play ARAMs... I just take so long to cast my ult while tanking so much damage... that I die before it finishes. His ult just doesn't feel smooth to me. I have to wait to do more damage, but wait too long and I can't finish it before I die myself. It feels like the time to cast is similar to Ezreal's ult. But Ez isn't in the smack dab middle of a fight in order to use his.

TheGatherinStorm2/18/2014, 5:04:03 AM1 votes

I personally would just like to see a larger ms boost on his q at later levels to allow him to get to his target more reliably in team fights.