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@Morello, a question about Tryndamere

Jingerbeardman··3 votes·312 views

So I have been thinking a little about Tryndamere lately and have wondered why he needs a flat passive boost to his attack damage for quite a while. I dont have an issue with the part that gives him ad as he gets hurt, that is fun and interesting, but the flat damage on top of all of his other free stats feels extremely excessive.Trynd is already 1 of only 3 champs that is able to deal a critical strike at lvl 1 without calculating in runes. He has an ult that allows him to continue fighting past the point of what would be death, and a sizable heal with a full bar of fury. His base stats are not weak, he doesnt get any less ad per level, no less HP per level, in fact he gets better base stats per level than most champs. I dont see any tradeoff for getting his flat attack damage at all. He already gets the ability to have 35% crit at lvl1 isn't that enough of an advantage already?

why not simply increase the more ad the less health he has passive a bit and get rid of the flat ad?

9 Comments

Critkeeper2 votes

its 35% at level 1, and the flat boost is only 5 at first rank. from there it goes up by 5 for each additional rank to a maximum of 25. The scaling portion starts at 15 and goes up by 5 each rank.

I wouldn't have a problem with your suggestion except that I feel that Tryndamere has nothing to offer his team if he does not dominate his lane. He is a crappy team fighter when both teams are relatively even in gold, and he doesn't have hardly any utility to speak of. The power of mocking shout falls off sharply after the mid game, and after that Tryndamere is forced to play the split push game.

A champion can build enough armor combined with thornmail to straight duel tryndamere. The thornmail ensures that he cannot regen health while auto attacking you, and I've made threads on the specifics of the mathematics involved there. Between that and the armor and health, all you have to be able to do is put him down to 1 hp and then survive his dps for 5 seconds, and that can be done with about 4000 health and 400 armor against a full build Tryndamere.

At that point in the game Tryndamere isn't left with any options. He is a crappy team fighter at this point especially since the supports likely have quite a few actives with which to peel him, and now he can't even split push. In other words, Tryndamere's late game may be good but his "end game"-- where everyone has maxed their builds-- is terrible.

I think given his weaknesses and the fact that he doesn't have "50% bonus armor penetration" or on hit true damage or any way to specifically counter the tanky bruisers that he is often up against, or any way to RELIABLY kill a squishy important target end game-- no immunity to slow or doublestrike alpha dunks, no fiora ultimate, not nearly the utility of yasuo...

I mean think about it holistically. What does Tryndamere even do? He just hits things with his melee attack over and over. Thats all. Other light fighters have plenty of things that they can do, but Tryndamere does not. His entire kit literally revolves around his auto attacks. Fiora has her ultimate and riposte, Yi has alpha and meditate, Yasuo has a knock up and windwall.

In other words those champions can do things to help their team that doesn't involve positioning themselves very carefully to be in melee range of an important target but out of aggro range of their important crowd control-- a very difficult game to play. They have fall back patterns and ways to "cry for help". Tryndamere literally doesn't do anything if he isn't hitting something in the end game aside from perhaps landing a mocking shout, but landing the "perfect" mocking shout means being suicidally close to their entire team and open to chain cc and inevitable death without doing any damage at all-- a trade that isn't worth it. Atleast in the mid game mocking shout really feels solid and has a huge impact, and he can do some things and feels like he has a fall back pattern just like the other light fighters.

But as the game progresses and mocking shout falls off, he doesn't feel solid. That is why I think it is so necessary for him to win the lane hard, and why I don't think he should lose his bonus AD.

BUT

If he does lose the flat portion of his bonus AD, I strongly suggest putting some scaling on his mocking shout so he can rely on a fall back pattern and have something he can do in the latter stages of the game in team fights even if he doesn't have a huge lead (and not necessarily overbearing if he DOES have a huge lead)

Jingerbeardman1 votes

Thats why I recommend moving the flat damage into the passive bloodlust gives from less health = more damage. If it were, you would have the same amount of damage during undying rage as it is with the flat bonus.

As for mocking shout, I am having a hard time following you. Trynd is a duelist, strong 1v1 but vulnerable in group fights.

Critkeeper1 votes

Jax is both stronger as a group fighter and as a duelist, and he cannot be counterbuilt.

Tryndamere is weaker both as a duelist and a team fighter, and thornmail and enough armor will completely ruin his ability to duel you.

And jax's early game is not nearly as weak as people say it is.

So why should Tryndamere be an inferior version of jax?

Jingerbeardman1 votes

jax also requires a lot of work done as well. most of his base stats really need to be reduced, his attack speed and attack speed per level especially. im not saying trynd is the only one that could use looking at right now. This is also posed as a question and not a you must do.

On another note, comparing champs to one another is not exactly the best way to discuss things as it tends to derail the thread. on your argument that jax cannot be counter built, the same can be said about tryndamere. During undying rage nothing you do to him other than cc affect him. Some would say that cannot be built against as well.

Critkeeper1 votes

Well on the matter of derailing the thread, I suppose you are right and it doesn't do much good to compare two champions if they both need working on.

On the matter of counterbuilding, Tryndamere doesn't do any magic damage and so you can counterbuild him through armor and health, whereas jax does quite a bit of both.

As for potential fixes, I would rather Tryndamere be a more formidable team fighter and I'm willing to lose some of his laning power or split pushing power in order to have that.

As for whether or not that can be done without changing his ultimate from "flat 5 seconds" to some other sort of condition management, I don't know. But what I do know is that there is no way in hell Tryndamere can be healthy for the game unless his ultimate is tweaked.

I don't think its necessary for him to just have a flat 5 seconds of immortality while also doing nearly the highest sustained damage in the game, but I do feel it is necessary for him to be able to be able to survive in circumstances that other champions would die in, and for him to be able to do amazing damage output while doing that.

If it were up to me I'd give the opponents ways to reduce Tryndamere's damage without putting CC on him, just by controlling their positioning. For example, maybe his sword is so big that if he tries to swing it at a carry he is standing next to, the enemy tank can help reduce the damage of it by standing near the carry, so that tryndamere has to cleave through the tank to get to the carry. That is just an idea.

And after executing the particulars of how to make Tryndamere more controllable in a team fight, I'd uncap his ultimate and put a different condition (not time) on it. So for example, since there are ways to reduce his damage without putting CC on him, I'd just make it so that on taking lethal damage he can't die until there isn't an enemy champion within 350 units of him. He could survive for 10-15 seconds that way, but it wouldn't be 15 seconds of current tryndamere because he wouldn't deal nearly as much damage because you can ACTUALLY reduce it by controlling your positioning next to your vulnerable allies.

the Anarchit3cht1 votes

Critkeeper covered most everything. Apart from that, Tryndamere's heal is pathetically weak. It heals, at most 300 hp unless he is building AP(which never happens because then the rest of his kit would be useless) and he has to sacrifice ALL of his rage to do that, which otherwise nullifies his passive and really reduces his ability to trade with the enemy. Rather, the heal on it is more a way to ensure that if you get away from the enemies via undying rage that you don't get killed walking past an enemy minion or from the next slight attack.

Jingerbeardman1 votes

not during lane phase, his heal is about 1.5-2 health pots that he gets without even buying them.

trynds late game is trynds late game. 25 extra ad will not make that big of a difference. Since in team fights he thrives best during undying rage, an increase to the less health = more damage would give the same damage as the current flat bonus.

The removal of the flat bonus would alleviate his ability to 100-0 a tower in the time it takes an opponent to return to lane at low levels. Enough that it would at least give some kind of breathing room for people laning against a trynd that need to recall.

the Anarchit3cht1 votes

by the time his heal is that strong, laning phase is over. in lane it's going to really heal no more than 190 and that's only if he sacrifices putting points into his mocking shout or spinning splash, which would again make his laning presence significantly weaker.

Shen's Q, at level 1 provides 6 hp on heal not counting any HP. and it refreshes on basic attack. the heal is additionally increased by 1.5% of his maximum health, actually making it heal around 13 hp over 3 seconds. that refreshes everytime you basic attack an enemy, amounting for more heal than a trynd can ever do. all the while it deals damage and is a good tool for last hitting minions, harassing enemies etc.

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