Riot, are there any plans to hit the top picks/bans of this season?

Annie C Hastur·Sep 17, 2013·5 votes·3,054 views

Hi, I'm a fairly decent (D1) player and as this season has dragged on it has seemed more and more like the top picks have been too far out of line.

Some of the prime offenders to me have been:

Ahri: Incredible mobility, damage, super strong laning, really good pick. Has no clear disadvantages.

Orianna: Laning phase ridiculously powerful, late game DPS among the highest of the ap carries, and comes with tons of utility and CC.

Zac: Way too difficult to kill. Damage is actually within reason for his capabilities, actually being lower than other tanks, but it's impossible to prevent his engages and nearly impossible to kill him when he does.

Corki: Strongest laning phase of all the AD carries with amazing mid game, impossible to prevent farming from post 6, tons of mobility and the best scaling with Trinity Force, which may be overpowered in its own right.

Anything?

26 Comments

Capt CarmineSep 17, 20136 votes

Orianna actually has one of the lowest bases, and ap scaling on her abilites, her q-w does less damage than a nidalee spear. she looks big because she is always wombo comboing her spells really efficiently. and she also doesnt really have that much mobility so it can be easy to catch her.

I spoke on another thread, but I feel aatrox has really starting pushing into zac's space, Zac has only really been picked once or twice in worlds, and aatrox pretty much carried the game he was in.

I feel for the majority of play characters really arent as overpowered, it is just with the limited bans the game has, teams are playing a small subset of the characters so they can ban and pick the other teams champions.

As much as Certain Rioters say they dont want to increase the champion bans I feel they really do need to do something to help with the ban pick phase of the game. becuase right now blue side has 4 bans with first pick, due to the fact that every team has come up with the idea of sharing a certain champion pool for sharing the champ, and when that happens a champ hits perma ban status, as it has happened for ahri and zed.

if they increased the number of bans but then allowed some champions to get picked before all of the bans happened I think it would really allow for more characters to get played and for teams to play different champions and not feel limited for not playing the same champions other teams do.

However going to your balancing question I feel Zed, Ahri, and Aatrox are the characters they really need to look at since they already have a trinity force nerf coming up on the PBE for corki.

RiotPWYFFSep 17, 20134 votes

Zac I would agree has ridiculously high base damage on his spells, but currently I don't think he's a mega concern.

Capt Carmine actually pointed out exactly what Orianna's core flaws are, but I would agree that if she's being deferred to as the fundamental "fall back" for a team fighting champion (if the Assassins are banned off), then maybe she should be looked at.

If you've been paying attention to the PBE, we're actually looking at Corki but, on a larger level, Trinity Force. From what I understand we're looking at simply halving the movespeed bonus of Trinity Force.

Ahri I think actually has champion deficiencies (similar to Orianna) but she's being deferred to as a high mobility assassin when Zed / Kassadin are off the list. I personally go to LeBlanc but that probably doesn't work beyond plat.

But on that note, good thoughts to bring, but the originating factor (THEY GET BANNED SO MUCH) isn't something LD really focuses too heavily on. It's more of a per game health and objective look, although pro picks and pro play does factor in certainly.

Dig DuxSep 17, 20133 votes

I was thinking that many of the other 'good teamfighting champions' are not in a very good spot right now.

Morgana suffered immensely from mobility creep,

Karthus got some nerfs recently, and he is already very vulnerable to mobility.

Anivia is in a decent spot, but noone picked her up recently.

Cassiopeia, is likely getting nerfed somewhat, though she hasn't been useful in tournaments for a while.

Kennen has seen play, and a fair bit of it at that.

Lux is out due to problems in the current meta.

Vlad is too easy to shut down early, as is mordekaiser.

Xerath needs a rework.

Galio isn't all that good since the penetration changes, and mobility creep, and he wasn't even that good then.

Vicktor is out due to super clunky gameplay.

Frankly none of the traditional ap mids are useful when champions such as an ahri or a zed or even a fizz will just kill them easily in a 1v1 or a 2v2 fight and just dominate the game from there.

I would like to point out that Orianna is one of the only ap mages that is relatively safe in lane, but is capable of doing her job when need be.

Other champions have high risk inconsistent ultimates such as Morgana and Galio. Or are so completely dominated by assassins as lux, or karthus are, that they become easy to shutdown.

Other mages get destroyed by assassins and mobility.

Orianna benefits from the high mobility to make super strong engages.

This is Orianna's meta, slow skillshots are useless in this meta when they can be dodged all day.

Only other option is likely Annie

I would also like to point out the gradual increase of skill-shot speed that newer champions have.

Joren UniekSep 17, 20131 votes

Orianna has deficiencies? As far as I can see she has excellent auto attacks, ranged harass, waveclear, shields, movespeed buffs, CC, burst, AoE, DPS ... like really what doesn't she do? You can't make her lose lane and she can in fact bully many champions out, and her teamfight power is almost unmatched.

The only weakness I see Orianna has at all is that she needs her ball to be in a good position, but by maxing Q and rushing Grail like every player does, she can spam it all over the place whenever she wants. If her Q had a 6 second cooldown at max rank then maybe she would have significant counterplay.

I consider it pretty awkward that you can pick Orianna into anything, and to go with anything, and do well.

RiotricklessabandonSep 19, 20134 votes

i'm looking into ahri and kass as candidates for changes in the 3.13 patch.
orianna isn't currently on the table as far as i know.
zac was changed recently—we're still digesting the data regarding their effects.
corki should have some changes in 3.12 if i'm not mistaken.

Joren UniekSep 19, 20131 votes

I can't even imagine anymore how I thought Ahri wasn't overpowered before the last time she got nerfed. It's so easy to win with her, it's just kinda unfair.

Do you expect Fizz to become a problem as soon as Ahri is nerfed? He's already very close to mandatory ban level.

RiotricklessabandonSep 19, 20133 votes

it's pretty much required of us to look at competitive assassins as a set since making changes to one will affect the others. i'm not super familiar with where fizz is at right now, so it will be another live design bro that looks into him while i look at ahri and kass.

monotykamarySep 20, 20131 votes

Have you guys considered balancing the feel and skill sets of the available wave clear for the assassins? It seems more favorable in high elo since it helps make room for objectives, denying farm to the enemy team, and create small gold advantages when there aren't kill opportunities on the map.

To add on, I feel that the single target damage from the kit of each assassin does its role very well, but the way their skills are designed with wave clear in mind creates a low risk early-mid game with potential kill stacks mid-late game (excluding KZ and Akali).

In the end if you're consistent enough, you'll eventually out-farm and out-kill the enemy team one way or another. For low elo, they tend to farm less. Less farm means more time to reach critical mass and less kill potential for the player.

There has to be a middle point somewhere along this line where this critical mass has a larger gap of entry with agreeable damage scaling through late game. Hopefully, in a way, it takes them down to the same level with other champions (assuming that we aren't Arch-DOTA2 where everyone is nerfed) while still being enjoyable to play.

We could also buff everyone else. That works, I think.

IxioranSep 20, 20132 votes

Can you please not touch anyone until after the Season 4 patch? We've seen in the past that these types of patches bring sweeping changes to the metagame, and I feel like nerfing these champions so close to the end of this season/the next patch has the potential to really screw them should the metagame shift.

I'll point to Morgana as an example of this. She used to be a top pick/ban towards the end of Season 2, and now she's never picked. She was really powerful, and a lot of people wanted to see her nerfed. The metagame shifted though, and she fell out of favor. It's entirely possible that this might happen to those ^ champions soon.

Keeping them the way they are now and re-evaluating them after the dust from the Season 4 patch settles seems like a much more conservative and calculated approach. If they're still too strong despite the changes the patch brings, then by all means fire away, but until then, please don't touch anyone.

ImUnASep 22, 20131 votes

I don't agree on Ahri getting nerf since her charm is skill demanding skill where if you miss that short-width skill you basically lose the engaging fight. Her skill sets are balanced in a way that if you are good with her you can do good but really bad when you are bad. Also, she has passive skill that is lower version of morgana/nasus. So maybe rather than nerfing ahri... buff others ><

HayabusaZeroSep 20, 20132 votes

Please, don't nerf Ahri to oblivion (you guys have a bad track record... Current case: Jayce). She already had some nerfs in the past, and i'm afraid you will make her bad just for her synergy with DFG. I prefer the item to be remove that Ahri be overnerfed.

2Charmnot2CharmSep 20, 20131 votes

I think it's DFG that needs to be changed not Ahri. Really nothing you can change about her without going to far except for her passive anyways.

Auryx EUSep 22, 20132 votes

Meanwhile Fizz... and Zed...

Stop nerfing Ahri, you already done it 4 times

IS12d30d10e096de90e249bSep 22, 20132 votes

At march Morello sad ahri "Talking to the team, we're currently happy with Ahri - not any changes coming in. In this meta, she actually thrives quite a bit and is still one of the best roaming mids there is." but why nerf ahri?

link: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=35594146#35594146

world champion ship Ahri have many pick -> nerf and I think Deathfire Grasp is OP Ahri is not OP

AtreiSep 25, 20131 votes

As someone who has had a number of games of kassadin and ahri, here are my thoughts.

Kassadin isn't that good in competitive play unless the team (which Fnc does) is structured around him. He doesn't lane well, except for a lv 4-5 cheese kill he can pull off with QE flash W ignite, but most (good) players will be ready for that. He can get pushed off the wave around lv 3-4, which is why xPeke and other Kassadin players run teleport.

If Kassadin runs teleport, he is literally 0 threat all laning phase, at least until level 7 where you should be able to get a hefty lead on him. People are just too passive against Kassadin right now. Wait until Fnatic face the Chinese team and we'll see how Kassadin works when he doesn't manage to get equal farm to lv 6 - pro players are too passive, which is why the weak early game champions are played more.

For Ahri, you guys already removed the tanky build from her - the DFG build is the only viable one left for her (although it might be too strong). It only too strong because the bulwark removal made DFG over the top. I think DFG can keep it's power, it just needs a MUCH higher cooldown so people have to think about using it, and people can play around the DFG cdr.

Thanks

PramxnimSep 17, 20133 votes

I think the recent Corki hype has everything to do with Triforce and almost nothing to do with where Corki is as a champion himself.

A couple of patches ago, Corki had his mana costs readjusted to make him less of a resource hog in lane, but his kit has basically remained unchanged since season 2. As a champion, he's in a good spot.

Triforce, however, is currently a problem. I really liked the Phage change at first, but even before everything blew up I felt the cost reduction was too generous. Triforce was already cost-effective after the buff to its combination cost (300 gold -> 3 gold), and this change to Phage cut its cost by another 215 gold (Phage went from 1465 -> 1250 gold). The cost reduction and reliability of the new Phage / Triforce made it a must-buy on many champions and brought a resurgence of some favourite season 2 picks, Corki being the foremost among them.

Without the recent Triforce change, Corki would still be in his own little niche, not too popular, but not fading into obscurity either. His potential as an AP mid has also been explored by some people (myself included). Now with this latest patch, he's seen a resurgence in solo queue and competitive play not because of a metagame shift or a change to his kit, but rather a much too generous buff to a classic item.

For solutions to this situation, I feel like the changes that are being implemented on the PBE is a step in the right direction. The stats on Phage and Triforce remain untouched, but the item costs are being readjusted, which is super nice. Right now it is sitting at 1350 for a Phage, and on paper I think it looks fine. I wouldn't mind buying Phage at 1375 or even 1400 gold for the movement speed and kiting potential it gives though, so that's always an option if you guys feel like the current changes are not enough. But please re-consider nerfing Corki, as he has been fairly balanced ever since his mana cost changes.

UglyDogeSep 18, 20132 votes

I 100% agree with this.

Joren UniekSep 19, 20131 votes

Not entirely true, mid lane CDR/mpen Corki is also extremely strong at the moment. I could see some tuning there.

But I do agree that if Triforce gets nerfed, that might already be enough for AD Corki. I'm sure they'll consider that though.

Not AwfulSep 17, 20131 votes

[deleted]

Joren UniekSep 17, 20131 votes

Ahri could easily just receive a nerf to her passive and her Q base damage so that it actually becomes possible for a good number of champions to win lane against her. There's no reason why you need to nerf the strongest part of her kit at all.

As an aside, it never made sense to me that they tuned her into becoming full assassin instead of a mobile AoE mage. To fit with the 9 tails theme, Her passive triggers when you hit 3 targets 3 times, her R hits 3 targets on each cast, her Q is AoE, and her W fires 3 bolts that will always hit 3 seperate targets. It would make the most sense for her if her kit actually pushed the player towards getting all spells off on 3 targets.

CriztovSep 18, 20131 votes

to clarify..w on ahri will hit the same target all three times if nothing else is available, her ulti does the same. Making her an AoE mage with her aoe being 3 targets seems like you would be causing her to be ineffective in any fight that had more than 3 enemies in it. Ahri was always intended to be an assassin, and the changes were made so that she was better able to serve in that role.

As for nerfing her passive or the base damage on her Q...I would say that neither of them can afford to be nerfed and still keep her laning on par with other Mid lane Champions. The reason I say that is because her Q has really high mana cost, and the passive requires 9 stacks [each ability only granting a max of 3] to even proc, and doesn't give that much regen until she has a decent amount of damage.

Joren UniekSep 18, 20131 votes

to clarify..w on ahri will hit the same target all three times if nothing else is available, her ulti does the same.

That's incorrect. The three ultimate bolts from one cast will never target the same enemy. It does not work the same way as her W.

VarsuuviusSep 17, 20131 votes

Orianna isn't an insanely powerful champion, especially not in laning phase I feel. She's very safe though due to her high utility and ability to safely fark. xPeke showed how easy it was to dodge Gragas ults simply with his speed boost making ganks very difficult on him. She works best with others around to utilize her utility and combo with certain champions better. I don't think she's in position of extreme power, her kit simply lends well to compositions with AoE spells or a champion that can easily dive into battle which, with Zac and Aatrox being used often, is not had to build a composition around.

Ahri is very powerful, there's no denying that but poor utilization of either her ult or her charm can often ruin an attempted assassination or make her very vulnerable. If anything needs fixing, perhaps a slightly smaller ratio on her Orb of Deception or maybe a smaller amount of Spell Vamp on her passive to make her laning phase a bit weaker without really hitting her ability to pinpoint and kill specific targets.

Zac is a bit tricky. His Elastic Slingshot makes initiations extremely easy and he brings great CC to a team. I think the most recent nerfs to him have brought in into line rather well actually. He has a harder time healing from his bloblets and it's possible to lock him down while he is in Let's Bounce. He seems to be much better suited for Solo Queue now although I don't think he's nearly as dominate as he used to be.

Corki is primarily a problem due to TriForce. In his own right, I don't think Corki is a terribly overpowered champion, rather well balanced I'd actually say. World's has shown just how powerful the chances to TriForce have made him so perhaps some tweaking of the item rather than himself would be warranted.

sarcasmsmurfSep 18, 20131 votes

i think a lot of issues with the likes of zed and Ahri is in their kit, if you have the skill to manage the mechanics and the decision making ability .. their kits simply allow too many tools...

personally rather than nerfs to the assassins i would love to see some improvements for the old ap mage class of characters perfreably changes in ap items .. so they scale better unto themselves like ADC items do.. just a thought