"the fact that he's had low presence in pro play last year"

WatchDogs Legion·Jan 8, 2020·37 votes·14,615 views

We can use that quote from Riot for alot of Champion

32 Comments

boricCentaur1Jan 8, 202020 votes

Who was that used for?

Also I'm 100% sure the people writing the patch notes have 0 clue wtf they're saying like the amount of bs and pointlessness they put into them is amazing. Like we get fucking jokes where the reason is in patch notes THAT SHOULD NOT HAPPEN.

Lord Zeta 1313Jan 8, 20208 votes

{quoted}

Who was that used for?

Also I'm 100% sure the people writing the patch notes have 0 clue wtf they're saying like the amount of bs and pointlessness they put into them is amazing. Like we get fucking jokes where the reason is in patch notes THAT SHOULD NOT HAPPEN.

Azir of all champs. Like, the dude is High Elo squared. No need to shove him in our faces.

Tentacle AdvisorJan 8, 20202 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Zeta 1313,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2QERsv8N,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2020-01-08T03:37:02.369+0000)

Azir of all champs. Like, the dude is High Elo squared. No need to shove him in our faces.

Don't forget Corki. They said the same thing in his patch notes, as well.

KarfussJan 8, 20205 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Zeta 1313,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2QERsv8N,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2020-01-08T03:37:02.369+0000)

Azir of all champs. Like, the dude is High Elo squared. No need to shove him in our faces.

Problem with Azir is that his skill floor is so freaking high, you'd have to main him thoroughly only to not get clapped out of lane in the first 3 minutes.

"The fact that he's had low presence in pro play last year" is literally because he requires mechanic perfection every single time to play anywhere close to what could be considered effective. Other champions who are a LOT more forgiving and easier to pick up in comparison already do a good job of shoving lanes and poking enemy champions. Nobody in their right mind would choose Azir, as he exists now, when prize money and livelihood is on the line.

It wasn't because he was weak.

MonstermushmushJan 8, 20201 votes

{quoted}

Problem with Azir is that his skill floor is so freaking high, you'd have to main him thoroughly only to not get clapped out of lane in the first 3 minutes.

"The fact that he's had low presence in pro play last year" is literally because he requires mechanic perfection every single time to play anywhere close to what could be considered effective. Other champions who are a LOT more forgiving and easier to pick up in comparison already do a good job of shoving lanes and poking enemy champions. Nobody in their right mind would choose Azir, as he exists now, when prize money and livelihood is on the line.

It wasn't because he was weak.

In my opinion, his skill floor isn't actually that high. His skill cap is high. It isn't hard to play him at a low level. His abilities aren't too complex, but to use him to his full potential, yes, you need to main him. Idk what i'm saying...

LauchmelderJan 8, 20201 votes

{quoted} "The fact that he's had low presence in pro play last year" is literally because he requires mechanic perfection every single time to play anywhere close to what could be considered effective. Other champions who are a LOT more forgiving and easier to pick up in comparison already do a good job of shoving lanes and poking enemy champions. Nobody in their right mind would choose Azir, as he exists now, when prize money and livelihood is on the line.

Yea no, that's not true. He might be harder to succeed with than other champions, he might even be up there with the hardest champions to master. Playing Azir and doing well with him isn't even remotely as hard as you make it out to be.

AZ FrostJan 8, 20202 votes

{quoted}

Problem with Azir is that his skill floor is so freaking high, you'd have to main him thoroughly only to not get clapped out of lane in the first 3 minutes.

"The fact that he's had low presence in pro play last year" is literally because he requires mechanic perfection every single time to play anywhere close to what could be considered effective. Other champions who are a LOT more forgiving and easier to pick up in comparison already do a good job of shoving lanes and poking enemy champions. Nobody in their right mind would choose Azir, as he exists now, when prize money and livelihood is on the line.

It wasn't because he was weak.

I have been playing him a bit recently, and his damg is a tad weak. he has fine poke potential, but can hardly get a kill or secure one early-mid game without help. His "buff" did not need to be in that poor excuse for a ult. It needed to be in his shield or Q damg. Bunch of moneys running the game lately.

ChickenWrapJan 8, 20201 votes

{quoted}

Problem with Azir is that his skill floor is so freaking high, you'd have to main him thoroughly only to not get clapped out of lane in the first 3 minutes.

"The fact that he's had low presence in pro play last year" is literally because he requires mechanic perfection every single time to play anywhere close to what could be considered effective. Other champions who are a LOT more forgiving and easier to pick up in comparison already do a good job of shoving lanes and poking enemy champions. Nobody in their right mind would choose Azir, as he exists now, when prize money and livelihood is on the line.

It wasn't because he was weak.

As someone who never plays Azir and picked him up for a few games this preseason for the memes, I can say with certainty that if you at least understand how the game works, you'll do more than fine with Azir.

Rapterminator 02Jan 8, 20201 votes

{quoted}

Problem with Azir is that his skill floor is so freaking high, you'd have to main him thoroughly only to not get clapped out of lane in the first 3 minutes.

"The fact that he's had low presence in pro play last year" is literally because he requires mechanic perfection every single time to play anywhere close to what could be considered effective. Other champions who are a LOT more forgiving and easier to pick up in comparison already do a good job of shoving lanes and poking enemy champions. Nobody in their right mind would choose Azir, as he exists now, when prize money and livelihood is on the line.

It wasn't because he was weak.

I’m pretty sure that pro players can play azir just fine. They are pros after all. Skill floor and ceiling doesn’t matter in a coordinated team filled with absolute professional players who know everything about the game. Azir was just flat out weaker than other midlane champs.

KawaiiDespairJan 8, 20201 votes

{quoted}

Problem with Azir is that his skill floor is so freaking high, you'd have to main him thoroughly only to not get clapped out of lane in the first 3 minutes.

"The fact that he's had low presence in pro play last year" is literally because he requires mechanic perfection every single time to play anywhere close to what could be considered effective. Other champions who are a LOT more forgiving and easier to pick up in comparison already do a good job of shoving lanes and poking enemy champions. Nobody in their right mind would choose Azir, as he exists now, when prize money and livelihood is on the line.

It wasn't because he was weak.

that term doesnt mean what you think it means lol. skill floor is where you start as a beginner. High skill floor characters are easy to use and hard to fuck up with, low skill floors are characters that are complex and require effort to use properly.

Leaf of the lakeJan 9, 20201 votes

{quoted}

Problem with Azir is that his skill floor is so freaking high, you'd have to main him thoroughly only to not get clapped out of lane in the first 3 minutes.

"The fact that he's had low presence in pro play last year" is literally because he requires mechanic perfection every single time to play anywhere close to what could be considered effective. Other champions who are a LOT more forgiving and easier to pick up in comparison already do a good job of shoving lanes and poking enemy champions. Nobody in their right mind would choose Azir, as he exists now, when prize money and livelihood is on the line.

It wasn't because he was weak.

Doesn't that make him, by definition, weak? Humans are the ones playing the game, not robots. Humans are imperfect, so perfection isn't going to happen.

KarfussJan 10, 20201 votes

[{quoted}](name=Leaf of the lake,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2QERsv8N,comment-id=0000000000010006,timestamp=2020-01-09T06:01:14.597+0000)

Doesn't that make him, by definition, weak? Humans are the ones playing the game, not robots. Humans are imperfect, so perfection isn't going to happen.

On a design perspective. Sure.

And that isn't something that can be fixed by potentially creating another Aphelios. Where a champion is, on paper, complicated. But has egregious ratios and broken features to their kit that become self-evident to the player after an hour at most of experience... Overshadowing the alleged complexity of said champion.

In Azir's case. He is already a capable champion in the proper hands. Buffs only empower those players. Buffing to absurdity, as Riot does with Ryze almost every season, until they are either picked or banned... Breaks those champions. Whether a 1000+ hour god main or a total newbie, you only need to abuse one aspect of their overbuffed kit to succeed.

As Azir stands right at this moment... Pros aren't playing him not because he is weak. They aren't playing him because he is one of the least forgiving champions in the game. You can name a dozen mid laners that can shove an enemy under turret by continually wiping wave after wave, and come with mobility and utility. All of whom, will do it in the click of a button and not require perfect positioning, in a much more safe and consistent way.

Leaf of the lakeJan 10, 20201 votes

{quoted}

On a design perspective. Sure.

And that isn't something that can be fixed by potentially creating another Aphelios. Where a champion is, on paper, complicated. But has egregious ratios and broken features to their kit that become self-evident to the player after an hour at most of experience... Overshadowing the alleged complexity of said champion.

In Azir's case. He is already a capable champion in the proper hands. Buffs only empower those players. Buffing to absurdity, as Riot does with Ryze almost every season, until they are either picked or banned... Breaks those champions. Whether a 1000+ hour god main or a total newbie, you only need to abuse one aspect of their overbuffed kit to succeed.

As Azir stands right at this moment... Pros aren't playing him not because he is weak. They aren't playing him because he is one of the least forgiving champions in the game. You can name a dozen mid laners that can shove an enemy under turret by continually wiping wave after wave, and come with mobility and utility. All of whom, will do it in the click of a button and not require perfect positioning, in a much more safe and consistent way.

All you've done is explain why it's difficult to balance these champions. Because they're unforgiving, they're easier to exploit, and thus easier to win against. In order to be worth picking against all the other options available, they need to be played perfectly, so you're just taking on additional risk for no additional benefit. To be worth picking, they need to do something better than everyone else. No one is going to want to pick a champ that's high risk, medium reward. Needing to play them super well only to get "good" output isn't an acceptable state of balance. Playing them super well and getting an outstanding output on the other hand, often leads to the champ being pick/ban, because of how good pro players tend to be, skewing the risk.

Even when azir and ryze are p/b in pro, that rarely if ever trickles down to low elo. Low elo players simply can't match the consistency that high elo players have with these champions.

KarfussJan 10, 20201 votes

[{quoted}](name=Leaf of the lake,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2QERsv8N,comment-id=000000000001000600000000,timestamp=2020-01-10T07:09:05.680+0000)

Because they're unforgiving, they're easier to exploit

To be worth picking, they need to do something better than everyone else. No one is going to want to pick a champ that's high risk, medium reward.

No. You can capitalize on someone making a mistake, but you're not the one causing another player to make one.

If someone plays an unforgiving champion and plays them near flawlessly, typically, they have more tools disposal.

Take Lee Sin, it's one thing to R, Q during the knockback and follow up. It's another to Q, follow up, ward hop behind and R an enemy into your team while you're diving the rest of their backline. That makes them infinitely harder to win against. With Lee Sin, is that the hardest thing to do in the world? No. But it is that added layer of skill that a less skilled player might not think to exploit.

Needing to play them super well only to get "good" output isn't an acceptable state of balance. Playing them super well and getting an outstanding output on the other hand, often leads to the champ being pick/ban, because of how good pro players tend to be, skewing the risk.

Let's compare Azir with Orianna (the current pro scene mid lane staple).

She has far less utility compared to Azir. She isn't always the one to engage fights (rather, she follows up during one), she doesn't have that mobility, she has practically zero hard CC (her R is hardly a Leona stun combo) that'll help her in lane. She can't spawn in another turret to delay an enemy push, or even repel it.

But what she IS good at, is clearing waves and poking enemies from a safe, long distance easily.

Azir can do all of that. Including all the things Orianna can't do. These are those extra tools available to a high risk champion, and they are highly rewarding perks when utilized.

Problem? To unlock all of that. You have to play him decently well. Mistakes tend to be lethal, and with Azir, that is wholly positioning related (whether you're playing around your sand soldiers or can use your mobility to pop your ultimate effectively, and even then are your sand soldiers that you've already used for mobility in range of the enemies you've engaged).

So pro players aren't playing Azir NOT because he isn't good, he has a LOT to his kit, especially in an organized team environment. In that same environment, you could have another engager that does it equally as good (if not better because Malphite, Leona, Alistar etc are built for that), while you still fulfil the role of shoving lanes and poking enemies.

Half the mid lane roster can do that with ease, with none of the risk or demanding mechanics of Azir. That's why you don't see him. Nothing to do with perhaps not doing enough damage or having long cooldowns or whatever else.

And if you overbuff a champion with all those tools just to see them played and then be picked/banned for the remainder of a tournament... There are literally no downsides to playing that champion. Too much damage compensates for only having one sand soldier as opposed to two, three. Less cooldowns means you have more opportunities and mistakes count for less. Skill goes out the window and everyone else playing this game suffers from it.

Ryze is an example of that. Every single time. Who becomes a three button spam champion and deletes anyone who is almost perma CC'd while they're being chased by an overgrown smurf breaking the speed limit.

Leaf of the lakeJan 10, 20201 votes

{quoted}

(snip)

Alright, I'll concede. You bring good points.

Ryze is an example of that. Every single time. Who becomes a three button spam champion and deletes anyone who is almost perma CC'd while they're being chased by an overgrown smurf breaking the speed limit.

I just wanted to thank you for that mental image. Gave me a chuckle.

ThilmerJan 8, 20204 votes

And here I are, giving zero fucks about pro-play and wondering why 1% of the players decide what needs a buff and what doesn't.

XJ99999999999999Jan 8, 20203 votes

camille is literally a better version of Vi.

RockmanJan 8, 20202 votes

Bench

The

Kench

Wen294Jan 8, 20202 votes

Correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't the time where every mid-lane was Corki Vs. Azir still last year? Because multiple months of pick/ban isn't really "low presence" in my eyes.

GonahtanuGepardiJan 8, 20201 votes

{quoted}

Correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't the time where every mid-lane was Corki Vs. Azir still last year? Because multiple months of pick/ban isn't really "low presence" in my eyes.

You could call it low presence because he was only picked against corki because he was the best choice into corki (although still not that good). He wasn't played if corki wasn't played.

RyzeReworkJan 8, 20201 votes

Some champs just cant be viable for proplay. I dont see why Amumu isnt in pro play. I understand he lacks escapes but he can lock an entire team down and that seems massive to me.

CatastroclysmJan 8, 20203 votes

{quoted}

Some champs just cant be viable for proplay. I dont see why isnt in pro play. I understand he lacks escapes but he can lock an entire team down and that seems massive to me.

He's very weak early game, and pro play is extremely early game focused.

He creates a weakness in your team from level 1, and an organized team will exploit that weakness, and create an insurmountable lead before Amumu scales enough to be relevant.

Basically, if you want a scaling champion, you also want that champion to be safe, like Kaisa, Vlad, Ryze, etc. These guys scale well, but are strong and safe enough early they won't be abused.

It's the same reason you never see things like Kog'Maw anymore.

Hope this helped. :)

Emperør RhaastJan 9, 20201 votes

{quoted}

Some champs just cant be viable for proplay. I dont see why isnt in pro play. I understand he lacks escapes but he can lock an entire team down and that seems massive to me.

Shit early game. His pick potential is narrowed down to one very narrow skillshot. Poor clearing compared to another tank like sejuani.

RyzeReworkJan 9, 20201 votes

[{quoted}](name=Emperør Rhaast,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2QERsv8N,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2020-01-09T16:21:17.521+0000)

Shit early game. His pick potential is narrowed down to one very narrow skillshot. Poor clearing compared to another tank like sejuani.

I just feel like he is the perfect champ if you play around him, he scales into an insane damage tank. Sure hes got a bad early game but I would think in a cordinated team it would matter as much. Idk I feel like his ult is game changing especially if you can get a good combo going

RaQqaJan 8, 20201 votes

Well, his R buff is like Kassadin -5 ms.

alwaysEZ4ENCEJan 8, 20201 votes

unpopular opinion: azir isn't actually that hard to play

ok , he is obviously one of the hardest champs in the game, and he probably has the highest skill cap, but he doesn't seem that hard to pick up. maybe im wrong, I haven't actually played him, but from what I can see, u stay in lane, poke with one soldier while clearing the wave, poke with q, only use one soldier at a time, hold ur e if the enemy engages or if u get ganked, repeat; teamfighing: u stay back and deal damage with ur soldiers basically

while he is not that hard, he is for sure hard enough to not be picked in lower elos, and I understand why they're buffing him. I don't understand why they're not nerfing the op champions tho....

OleandervineJan 8, 20202 votes

{quoted}

unpopular opinion: azir isn't actually that hard to play

ok , he is obviously one of the hardest champs in the game, and he probably has the highest skill cap, but he doesn't seem that hard to pick up. maybe im wrong, I haven't actually played him, but from what I can see, u stay in lane, poke with one soldier while clearing the wave, poke with q, only use one soldier at a time, hold ur e if the enemy engages or if u get ganked, repeat; teamfighing: u stay back and deal damage with ur soldiers basically

while he is not that hard, he is for sure hard enough to not be picked in lower elos, and I understand why they're buffing him. I don't understand why they're not nerfing the op champions tho....

I've highlighted the two parts of your comment that invalidate your argument. You can't really present an opinion about how difficult a champion is to play if you've never even played him. Azir is difficult. His mechanics may look simple to an outsider, but attacking with his soldiers is wonky as hell, and knowing how to reposition them and fling yourself into combat takes masterful understanding.

LauchmelderJan 8, 20201 votes

{quoted}

I've highlighted the two parts of your comment that invalidate your argument. You can't really present an opinion about how difficult a champion is to play if you've never even played him. Azir is difficult. His mechanics may look simple to an outsider, but attacking with his soldiers is wonky as hell, and knowing how to reposition them and fling yourself into combat takes masterful understanding.

I disagree. Mastering Azir is hard and he may be one of the harder champs to master. Playing him is easy.

Me, M7 Azir, mained him for a season, dropped him when the vocal majority refused a possible small rework just to keep him as a walking gimmick.

Joe 2ndJan 8, 20201 votes

{quoted}

unpopular opinion: azir isn't actually that hard to play

ok , he is obviously one of the hardest champs in the game, and he probably has the highest skill cap, but he doesn't seem that hard to pick up. maybe im wrong, I haven't actually played him, but from what I can see, u stay in lane, poke with one soldier while clearing the wave, poke with q, only use one soldier at a time, hold ur e if the enemy engages or if u get ganked, repeat; teamfighing: u stay back and deal damage with ur soldiers basically

while he is not that hard, he is for sure hard enough to not be picked in lower elos, and I understand why they're buffing him. I don't understand why they're not nerfing the op champions tho....

Hard part of his gameplay is controling his W. In lane it’s easy but in eary and mid game if you dont place your w in right place you won’t deal dmg. In late game it gets more forgiving cuz you have much more dmg. He has really low early dmg so you must use 100% of it to stay usefull in early game. And that is whats hard at Azir imo.

Azir main btw.

The IcebornJan 8, 20201 votes

This is so true lol

ﬂooJan 8, 20201 votes

[{quoted}](name=WatchDogs Legion,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2QERsv8N,comment-id=,timestamp=2020-01-08T00:53:22.504+0000)

We can use that quote from Riot for alot of Champion

terrible design, needs rework and nothing else

has seen a rework on pbe, they're testing things on him

got a really good mini rework that makes her viable, dunno if in pro though

too easy to play around, you won't see him in pro because they know how to make him basically useless

same as amumu

he's got his rework, not really sure if that makes him all that viable though, he's just too depending on getting fed but can't carry or be that helpful in teamfights

has seen changes, went fucking horrible so it's back to being benched, if he's seen all he does is provide excessive mobility and safety for his team idk where they want to head with him tbh

no gapclosers, the kite-around champ in the game, so you won't see him in pro play. buffing him would make him hell in soloQ

same as amumu

has a rework on pbe right now