Remove the damage from her Q, the waveclear is way too much for a sieging champion.
Instead, give her a passive 35 /70 /105 / 140 / 175 AD from her Q.
Make the Q active a 10 / 20 / 30 /40 / 50 attack speed steroid.
Give her ult a .1 second ministun and make it instant cast.
This will give caitlyn niches against weak adcs in lane and things like fiddle and xerath who's ults can situation ally be interrupted
Chembaron Yamada1 votes175 free AD with level 9, what could possibly go wrong? Dude, this is more than 2 complete items worth of AD.... how did you come up with these numbers?
Additionally, the way her kit functions, she doesn't care for attack speed at all. She wants to poke you down from afar, which her Q helps her to achieve.
And your argumentation is off....
Remove the damage from her Q, the waveclear is way too much for a sieging champion.
A sieging champion needs waveclear, how else are they supposed to create the sieging situation in the first place? She is not the only one.
Is a sieging mage. He can waveclear pretty fine with his Q and E, then starts to chunk down your tower and even execute it if it is low enough.
1 516 735 35081 votes[{quoted}](name=Chembaron Yamada,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2KaOJxmu,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-07-05T13:17:42.977+0000)
175 free AD with level 9, what could possibly go wrong? Dude, this is more than 2 complete items worth of AD.... how did you come up with these numbers?
Additionally, the way her kit functions, she doesn't care for attack speed at all. She wants to poke you down from afar, which her Q helps her to achieve.
And your argumentation is off....
A sieging champion needs waveclear, how else are they supposed to create the sieging situation in the first place? She is not the only one.
A sieging champion like caitlyn benefits immensely from waveclear, and since turret plating became a thing, her LINE wave clear in particular is a bit harsh.
And you don't only pick caitlyn to have a sound bot lane and try to siege, you also pick her for late game scaling. her 4 items feel really shit , but her super endgame outscales almost all other adcs because of her safety and that's important.
This change would help to shift her away from hard speccing into early siege and soft speccing into late game hyper carry and make it more 50 / 50 for her two main draws.
Not to mention, it's not like 175 ad isn't going to give her waveclear, especially considering this version of caitlyn can't be traded on without lethal (Ie an all in combo), she can auto the minions and even build shiv first because she already HAS ad and wants to build crit anyway. the point is that this slows her down, and her waveclear can be more like tristana's , who can't line skillshot the whole wave and instead needs to proc her e passive a few times.
Simple.
Deez Crits1 votes[{quoted}](name=1 516 735 3508,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2KaOJxmu,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-07-05T13:31:19.358+0000)
A sieging champion like caitlyn benefits immensely from waveclear, and since turret plating became a thing, her LINE wave clear in particular is a bit harsh.
And you don't only pick caitlyn to have a sound bot lane and try to siege, you also pick her for late game scaling. her 4 items feel really shit , but her super endgame outscales almost all other adcs because of her safety and that's important.
This change would help to shift her away from hard speccing into early siege and soft speccing into late game hyper carry and make it more 50 / 50 for her two main draws.
Not to mention, it's not like 175 ad isn't going to give her waveclear, especially considering this version of caitlyn can't be traded on without lethal (Ie an all in combo), she can auto the minions and even build shiv first because she already HAS ad and wants to build crit anyway. the point is that this slows her down, and her waveclear can be more like tristana's , who can't line skillshot the whole wave and instead needs to proc her e passive a few times.
Simple.
I think your changes shift her identity from a mix of siege/lane bully strongly towards the lane bully side (like Draven). 35 AD from 1 rank in Q is pretty substantial. Draven's Spinning Axe is still stronger at rank 1 (bonus AD scaling), but at the expense of having to catch axes, a cap on how many he can have going at once, and shorter range. You're giving Caitlyn a much safer spinning axe at level 1 with your numbers (and this is before considering the fact that she has an AS steroid on it).
I think the bread and butter build would be Runaan's into Infinity Edge and I think that would be a somewhat problematic Caitlyn to face. You wouldn't see her cashing in on plates as often due to weaker push power (at least early, before Runaan's is built), but she's still going to get easy lane priority because she won't let you near the wave without being punished (especially with her passive!). And, as you mentioned, bonus AD still gives her pushing power due to auto attacks.
She might even rush a vamp scepter and become a much safer version of Draven. In other words, due to her sheer ability to harass her laning opponents, she either gets to have control of the wave (arguably makes her siege even stronger because of her higher AD + attack speed on Q so when the wave finally crashes, she chunks the turret extremely hard especially considering headshot).
You make a point that your changes give Caitlyn 'niches against weak ADCs in lane' but isn't that what she's doing currently? Or perhaps you mean that Caitlyn is just too strong in general and is too flexible in the bottom lane.
I don't know if these changes would make her specifically a niche pick. I think it's hard to make changes causing her to be an insane lane bully while also having high range. Her bonus AD makes her strong in lane and, even if she won't be at the enemy turret as often early, by virtue of having strong range and the ability to itemize for wave clear through Runaan's (or Shiv as you mentioned), she becomes a very effective & safe sieging champion. I'm not sure if numbers being tweaked would help make her viable because I feel like it's an identity crisis in that she is too good at too many things so the numbers can never be balanced - she'll either be overwhelmingly weak or strong and it's difficult to find numbers that give her a middle ground.
1 516 735 35081 votes[{quoted}](name=Deez Crits,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2KaOJxmu,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-05T15:47:46.121+0000)
I think your changes shift her identity from a mix of siege/lane bully strongly towards the lane bully side (like Draven). 35 AD from 1 rank in Q is pretty substantial. Draven's Spinning Axe is still stronger at rank 1 (bonus AD scaling), but at the expense of having to catch axes, a cap on how many he can have going at once, and shorter range. You're giving Caitlyn a much safer spinning axe at level 1 with your numbers (and this is before considering the fact that she has an AS steroid on it).
I think the bread and butter build would be Runaan's into Infinity Edge and I think that would be a somewhat problematic Caitlyn to face. You wouldn't see her cashing in on plates as often due to weaker push power (at least early, before Runaan's is built), but she's still going to get easy lane priority because she won't let you near the wave without being punished (especially with her passive!). And, as you mentioned, bonus AD still gives her pushing power due to auto attacks.
She might even rush a vamp scepter and become a much safer version of Draven. In other words, due to her sheer ability to harass her laning opponents, she either gets to have control of the wave (arguably makes her siege even stronger because of her higher AD + attack speed on Q so when the wave finally crashes, she chunks the turret extremely hard especially considering headshot).
You make a point that your changes give Caitlyn 'niches against weak ADCs in lane' but isn't that what she's doing currently? Or perhaps you mean that Caitlyn is just too strong in general and is too flexible in the bottom lane.
I don't know if these changes would make her specifically a niche pick. I think it's hard to make changes causing her to be an insane lane bully while also having high range. Her bonus AD makes her strong in lane and, even if she won't be at the enemy turret as often early, by virtue of having strong range and the ability to itemize for wave clear through Runaan's (or Shiv as you mentioned), she becomes a very effective & safe sieging champion. I'm not sure if numbers being tweaked would help make her viable because I feel like it's an identity crisis in that she is too good at too many things so the numbers can never be balanced - she'll either be overwhelmingly weak or strong and it's difficult to find numbers that give her a middle ground.
Well with this much damage caitlyn's pushing power would actually be much stronger than her current form when and only when she is uncontested. You're also forgetting that draven has a better burst than either version of caitlyn and a bigger steroid. Having to catch axes isn't really a problem in the types of trades draven can and wants to take vs any caitlyn lane (Ie combination of supp and jungle + caitlyn in the scope of the current meta and next best picks ) on either blue or purple side.
This caitlyn will be safer than draven , yes.
Caitlyn was designed to be a lane bully, but in modern league, a lot of the time, she isn't even picked to or functional as a lane bully anymore. Some lanes, actually can bully caitlyn and her support and this caitlyn will still be a safety pick in those situations.
The change would highlight caitlyns strengths and shift them away from line waveclear a little bit.
She would also be weaker when she is bad vs certain types of kill lanes and midgame comps, ie those with lethal on her and difficult threats.
She would be MUCH safer vs various poke lanes however, and she would be much safer vs anything that doesn't have high threat on her because of higher lifesteal scaling between more AD and the attack speed steroid.
That's just better design and a lot of cool new comps would incorperate caitlyn and try to answer her.
Even with these changes, there are still reasons to pick Kaisa, Sivir and many other champions instead of caitlyn, it wouldn't really break anything.
The people who have a problem with this would sooner be the bot lane duos who want to blind pick vayne alistar in solo queue and hashinshin the lane phase.
ModThe Djinn1 votesThis change takes the majority of the skill out of Caitlyn. You're removing her skillshot damage nuke (that you have to angle well to make it more damage than attacking in a fight against enemies) and her channeled ultimate that has counterplay only due to the channel and instead simply giving her more on-demand right-click power.
1 516 735 35081 votes[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2KaOJxmu,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-07-05T16:32:10.943+0000)
This change takes the majority of the skill out of Caitlyn. You're removing her skillshot damage nuke (that you have to angle well to make it more damage than attacking in a fight against enemies) and her channeled ultimate that has counterplay only due to the channel and instead simply giving her more on-demand right-click power.
At very low tiers, that's probably true, where the hallmark of caitlyn's dificulty is landing the Q. At higher tiers, it's actually the opposite. Caitlyn's Q has a longer range than her autos do and is line wave clear. Having to rely on auto attacks instead involves more risk, and further emphasizes spacing and multiple inputs.
Also, optimizing a steroid is harder than optimizing caitlyn's Q, especially at levels of play where you have to be cerebral to play around threads and meet win conditions.
ModThe Djinn1 votesAlso, optimizing a steroid is harder than optimizing caitlyn's Q, especially at levels of play where you have to be cerebral to play around threads and meet win conditions.
This is inaccurate. A steroid with any not-insigificant duration can simply be popped at any time you think a fight will last close to that long. One of the main reasons many modern ADCs have more interactive spells or more skillshots is because the "I only right-click" pattern is just generic power with no real way to play around it. Caitlyn's problem historically has been an over-reliance on right-clicking that makes her skew between worthless and overpowered based on the strength of itemization, and this just pushes her more in that direction.
1 516 735 35081 votes[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2KaOJxmu,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-07-05T17:35:25.486+0000)
This is inaccurate. A steroid with any not-insigificant duration can simply be popped at any time you think a fight will last close to that long. One of the main reasons many modern ADCs have more interactive spells or more skillshots is because the "I only right-click" pattern is just generic power with no real way to play around it. Caitlyn's problem historically has been an over-reliance on right-clicking that makes her skew between worthless and overpowered based on the strength of itemization, and this just pushes her more in that direction.
No, you're missing the point. There is more room for skill expression in proper use of steroids than their is in landing a single, easy skillshot. If you pop it too early, you're wasting value, if you pop it on the wrong target, you're wasting value, if you don't have frame perfect input buffering, you're wasting value. If a cait lands a Q, it's the same as some other cait landing the Q, but if a player from every current solo queue tier pops a steroid and orb walks, the gradients are clear.
There's a reason Jinx is one of the hardest adcs in the game to add to your pool and pilot above 600 lp or so, and that's managing her passive in teamfights.
This is also why non pro dravens fall off after midgame, managing his W and staying alive is hard.
This is also why a diamond 2 50 lp ashe and a high end solo queue ashe do Vastly different amounts of damage with the same items.
Auto attacking, moving and dash dancing effectively, on an adc isn't about right clicking. It's about managing different resources. There's a lot of tethering, cerebral thought and pivoting involved. There is also a need to constantly assess threats and identify which pockets to play in, and to be in as punishing as possible without touching the stove and getting burned.
That's just basic league
ModThe Djinn1 votes[{quoted}](name=1 516 735 3508,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2KaOJxmu,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-05T18:55:24.031+0000)It's about managing different resources. There's a lot of tethering, cerebral thought and pivoting involved. There is also a need to constantly assess threats and identify which pockets to play in, and to be in as punishing as possible without touching the stove and getting burned.
And doing that WHILE lining up abilities and timing them is harder than doing it WITHOUT doing those things. This is, again, why League's design has actively moved away from simplistic auto-attacking champions.
1 516 735 35081 votes[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=2KaOJxmu,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-05T19:15:42.842+0000)
And doing that WHILE lining up abilities and timing them is harder than doing it WITHOUT doing those things. This is, again, why League's design has actively moved away from simplistic auto-attacking champions.
No, not all of this while lining up her Q. The old version of caitlyn has the steroid to manage, your argument would only make sense if she had both.
The more attack speed you have, especially if it's tied to a steroid, the more inputs are required.
And the final nail in the coffin? You thought you could just press a steroid in advance of a teamfight, but caitlyn still needs to be in auto range. A Q she can press before a fight, from a much safer distance and, get this, it isn't even committal.
The difference is clear :)