I feel sorry for all Elise players at this point.

Only Play Darius··90 votes·8,120 views
Champion.gg - Elise Jungle Stats, Builds, Runes, Masteries and Counters

It just saddens me to see someone play Elise in my games, because due to her unviability I know for a fact that they are playing her simply because they enjoy her, yet aren't allowed to win games while playing a champ they genuinely like. The supposed "buff" for this patch ended up dropping her winrate by 2%, for a grand total of 41% in Plat+, literally the worst winrate in the game, and I don't believe any champion deserves to have their winrate in the very bottom of the gutter (maybe not even Leblanc), especially for as long as Elise has.

I started playing on Braum release so I wasn't playing at the time Elise was considered god-tier or even strong, so I might not have any authority to speak about her issues, but from what I have heard, the removal of her spiderform defense stats were the final nail in her coffin. Maybe just giving her back the defense stats she desperately needs in melee range would solve 90% of her problems and make her instantly playable?

I have also been told that Riot had painted themselves in a corner with Elise by giving her a kit that, while not necessarily overloaded, packs in everything a jungler could possibly want as it has fast clears, HP sustain, (partly) resourceless, and potent early ganks (which is why I also worry that one of my favorite champs RekSai will continue to get nerfed to the point that she becomes the next Elise, but that's another post).

As it stands, it feels like there is no reason to ever pick Elise, not only because she has a trash winrate, but also because it seems that the other shapeshifting AP jungler Nidalee simply does everything Elise does, but better, except for hard CC which she trades for much more safety with the javelin spam (ever been bush camped by a Nidalee jg?). But even Nidalee isn't in the best of spots right now, since Riot chose to nerf her a week before they finally solved the real problem with the S5 jungle by making a worthwile tank item and making the camps easier to clear for tanks.

Well, maybe I shouldn't focus on this patch's shortcomings so much. On the bright side, the long-awaited Anivia splash is gorgeous.

126 Comments

MrSlowDie8 votes

RIP elise I'll always remember your glorious day back in S3

RoyaiChaos3 votes

*overpowered

Decrit5 votes

If there was a season to start fearing spiders, that was the one

Troy2426215 votes

Lol feeling sorry for Elise players. It's funny 'cause Elise players don't exist.

Joke went over peoples' heads. She has a low play rate from being underpowered. Calm your shit.

Only Play Darius8 votes

More to prove my point, it seems like everyone has given up on her. I run into one every once in a blue moon, and just seeing them doing the best they can with that gimped champion just depresses me.

Baby sitting ADC4 votes

On top of it they get told, that they're shitty junglers, and other such things that occurs like along the line of insults. She doesnt even really have damage anymore in her kit its all just tank items really. It makes me cry because I use to love playing her like ALL the time and wanted to in ranked. But now its a little too much tank and I dont want to be a TANK with her the point of her was suppose to be a large HP MAGE last time I recalled.

item 3708 <--- Its like they're still getting this confused for no reason and making this a melee AP item more for Fizz jungles than for actual AP jungles.

Baby sitting ADC8 votes

I'm an Elise player.....

Earthpine4 votes

Elise players unite!

Zahz3 votes

winrate is a terrible example of game balance. Elise is a great example. If only a small handful of people are playing the champ then those wins or losses tip the scales very hard. Especially right after a patch when things like build and skill order may change or just so many people picking hte champ back up to judge her viability.

Penguin Eclipse34 votes

{quoted}

winrate is a terrible example of game balance. Elise is a great example. If only a small handful of people are playing the champ then those wins or losses tip the scales very hard. Especially right after a patch when things like build and skill order may change or just so many people picking hte champ back up to judge her viability.

Her winrate's not bad because there are few people playing her. Her winrate's bad because she's bad.

Abyssphere15 votes

[{quoted}](name=Penguin Eclipse,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zjbrPtvR,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-06-26T20:37:05.225+0000)

Her winrate's not bad because there are few people playing her. Her winrate's bad because she's bad.

Considering nobody but the people who like her above anyone else even plays her at this stage it's especially bad. Even the people who play her best can't win with her.

FluxBound6 votes

I, as a victim, can back this up

Yingzii2 votes

sadly enough, i'm also a elise player who struggles

iamleburk3 votes

but more people would have tried her out after the buffs.. meaning those people who havent played her since she became shit tier.

qetzel1 votes

This is wrong. Only about 25% of people that play her have over 50 games on her. Almost 50% have fewer than 15 games. This is similar to most champions.

http://champion.gg/champion/Elise

HOORAY FOR STATISTICS!

Abyssphere19 votes

{quoted}

winrate is a terrible example of game balance. Elise is a great example. If only a small handful of people are playing the champ then those wins or losses tip the scales very hard. Especially right after a patch when things like build and skill order may change or just so many people picking hte champ back up to judge her viability.

But she's bad in everything. Look at the stats he linked:

36th most gold earned out of 41 junglers 24th most kills out of 41 junglers (she has an execute, she should excel here) 3rd most deaths 32nd most assists 21st in damage dealt (not horrible until you realise her kit is almost all damage) 6th most damage taken 25th highest CS overall placement: 41 out of 41

Elise's winrate is accurate. She's atrociously bad.

Vistha Kai9 votes

Her winrate's a great example of everything wrong with her. Nobody but people dedicated to Elise play her and she's on the bottom.

For example Syndra's average winrate is 44% in Plat and above and I have nearly 60%(average Joe with 125 games has 52% winrate). As a dedicated champion main.

Now look at Elise. 41% winrate, 43% before this patch. People with over 125 games(!) barely get past 45% winrate.

TheMoonMan1 votes

source the elise numbers pls

Abyssphere6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Michael Holmes,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zjbrPtvR,comment-id=000100020000,timestamp=2015-06-27T00:02:33.347+0000)

source the elise numbers pls

... just look at the link in the OP.

Vistha Kai2 votes

Some people are too lazy to even read the first sentence, eh?

PhoenixOfHeaven1 votes

So you know, I feel the same way. Win-rate is a terrible way to determine how a champ is. I could go troll and lose like 10 matches as Lee Sin, and his win-rate would drop. Does tat make him bad?

Also, Elise is amazing in game! Sure her damage is low(Which I also don't believe) , but shes got a long teleport, and a nice amount of stuns/Slows to her.

Abyssphere2 votes

{quoted}

So you know, I feel the same way. Win-rate is a terrible way to determine how a champ is. I could go troll and lose like 10 matches as Lee Sin, and his win-rate would drop. Does tat make him bad?

Also, Elise is amazing in game! Sure her damage is low(Which I also don't believe) , but shes got a long teleport, and a nice amount of stuns/Slows to her.

Elise doesn't have a slow and has one stun. Do you even know what her kit does?

PhoenixOfHeaven1 votes

Really? I Know she as that ranged stun which is really good, But I thought she had a slow. Huh...

blujadajhdja3 votes

Even when she was a good pick, she wasn't as strong as everyone made her out to be.

Syndrarella2 votes

[deleted]

Vistha Kai3 votes

When I read changes to her on S@20 for the first time I was like "wtf does this even mean" and when I did that for the second time... well. Riot assumes that Runeglaive solves anything about mages in the jungle. It's the same for Elise change. They think it's a buff, but in reality they nerfed TWO things about her once more.

Crett2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zjbrPtvR,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2015-06-26T22:51:08.244+0000)

When I read changes to her on S@20 for the first time I was like "wtf does this even mean" and when I did that for the second time... well. Riot assumes that Runeglaive solves anything about mages in the jungle. It's the same for Elise change. They think it's a buff, but in reality they nerfed TWO things about her once more.

They gave her passive sustain instead of active, and they made her E double her spider damage AND healing How's that not a buff?

It may not be all she needs, but it wasn't pushing her further into obscurity.

Although if you're talking about Runeglaive on Elise, then I wholeheartedly agree.

If it's about shifting her healing from an active moment of power to a less effective passive, that actually removed a weakness from her; she doesn't rely on her spiderlings for healing anymore, and she can actually pretty much get back what she had before with her E. 20 + 20% AP healing on autoattacks isn't small.

She's not where she needs to be, but I can't see this as a nerf

Sightless664 votes

The active sustain was better than the passive sustain for the duration it was active, and Elise actually didn't have significant sustain problems. Decent clearing and spiderling tanking allowed her to stay pretty healthy, and you could use spider W on most camps for sustain anyway. Having the higher active sustain for a duration in a fight can be a lot more valuable than having a lesser passive sustain all the time, particularly as the game goes on. The E change could help make up for this, but in practice you don't really get to E on top of people very often, and you have to have E leveled in order to get good benefits from it. It's almost always better to save it for damage avoidance or escaping, so you often don't get to make good use of the bonus from the E. The end result is that your sustain really doesn't benefit at all.

I wouldn't say it's really a nerf overall, but it's not a buff. Her winrate is probably down because people are screwing themselves trying to make Runeglaive work. They'll give up and go back to Cinderhulk in a week or so, and her winrate will go back to what it was.

Crett2 votes

{quoted}

The active sustain was better than the passive sustain for the duration it was active, and Elise actually didn't have significant sustain problems (decent clearing and spiderling tanking allowed her to stay pretty healthy). Having the active sustain for a duration in a fight can be a lot more valuable than having a lesser passive sustain all the time. The E change could help make up for this, but in practice you don't really get to E on top of people very often, and you have to have E leveled in order to get good benefits from it. It's almost always better to save it for damage avoidance or escaping, so you often don't get to make good use of the bonus from the E.

I wouldn't say it's really a nerf overall, but it's not a buff. It's pretty neutral.

40 + 60% AP magic damage on-hit with E; with Sated Devourer, that could be 200 + 120% AP on a single auto I want to experiment with that item on Elise

It'll be hard to reach that point in-game, but she'll do a lot of damage Probably not as good as Shyvana tho

Vistha Kai5 votes

She needs to waste her only escape and get into melee to apply this increased healing and damage.

How is that not a nerf?

Partholonian1 votes

Using a mobility skill to go all in is only a waste if it doesn't work. In other words, if you chose your moment badly.

She may still be too weak, but the fact that she gets offensive stats for using Rappel offensively is not a problem; it's one of the things that will allow them to buff her without creating huge balance problems where she's super strong while being super safe. Having to choose is healthier gameplay.

For another example, consider Riven's infamous four dashes. The more of them she uses to get to you to attack you, the less she has if she needs to get away. That's what makes her not nearly as broken as she looks unless you're the one who gets in her face unwisely.

Aeolian Melodies1 votes

A champion no one can reasonably hope to escape from is bad design too - not saying that's necessarily Riven's case, but "it's offensive!" isn't a guarantee of healthy design.

Vistha Kai3 votes

You forgot the fact that 40% CDR Riven(standard) has essentially 100% uptime on mobility.

So that's a bad example.

Bears Dont Care1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zjbrPtvR,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2015-06-26T22:51:08.244+0000)

When I read changes to her on S@20 for the first time I was like "wtf does this even mean" and when I did that for the second time... well. Riot assumes that Runeglaive solves anything about mages in the jungle. It's the same for Elise change. They think it's a buff, but in reality they nerfed TWO things about her once more.

Ummm. Number wise it was a buff?

Vistha Kai3 votes

Number wise it's neither, but:

  1. The AS and heal bonus is larger, true.
  2. It's tied to her escape, which is bad.
  3. The heal is halved without Rappel bonus.

So it's two nerfs and one buff that doesn't outweight nerfs, conclusion - it's a nerf.

Heckin Support2 votes

I hate spiders. I really really do. But I loved Elise so much to the point where I even bought her skin to tolerate her more. She's an amazing champion with a great set of skills, her identity is just not there. Is she a tank? A mage? An assassin? Players want her to be a bruiser mage but apparently that overpowered.

But champs like Gragas that are tanky mages that are built like a house and hit like a truck are still allowed to run around the rift. Theres no reason why she shouldn't be viable and get some love.

jama6552 votes

....my friends honestly make fun of me for playing elise.... lol... item 3070

IA9hRfpP5q2 votes

"Only the spider is safe in her web" - Elise

And guess what? She's never on any web... none of her abilities cast a web that she can walk on. She doesn't say this as a taunt, she says it as it is a liability to step into the rift where there is no web. She is ONLY safe in her web, maybe people just misinterpret this.

Perhaps it should be rephrased to "The spider is only safe in her web" so that people can understand this.

She's like Soraka , A support hat has been reworked into being the "Insane Difficulty" option of supporting You die by using abilities, can heal by using abilities... are squishy as hell, no hard cc... yet Sona Nami Janna Bard Are much easier to play and don't require heavy risks...

The problem with the balance team is that they play create these "Low Risks, High Rewards" champions and expect "High Risk, Low Rewards" to be competitive or "do well".

Celeste Benal1 votes

I'll just leave this here.

Only Play Darius5 votes

So you got carried and had sub-50% kill participation as a high-pressure jungler? Sounds like she's doing well huh.

Vistha Kai4 votes

You did 200 damage more than support Nautilus and 400 less than Shen top while you were building damage.

UPfreely1 votes

honestly i feel like shes in a better spot than some champions but i feel you... Gangplank Taric

Champion Skin1 votes

Well Taric isn't completely useless if he is against an all AD team he is pretty good and he is even better if his team also happens to be all AD (he has an armor shred and it scales with the armor he is likely to stack)

Taric's stun is pretty good at catching people out... however he isn't that great at peeling for his carry if more then 1 enemy dives his carry (well hopefully his heal and aura's will be enough to keep the carry alive)

UPfreely2 votes

just the sheer ignoral of GP saddens me :C literally saw him go like 7/0/0 in lane the other day and proceed to be useless the rest of the game. (c9 hai was playing him) but yeah taric can be useful but he really doesn't do anything if people walk away from him. his chase/escape potential is about as good as mordekaisers

Minrog1 votes

Nidalee has hard CC on her traps, so no trade off needed.

Win rates don't mean too much until you get to the edge cases. A character that starts pushing to 60% or dropping to 40% there's something obviously wrong with it. Especially if you filter by the upper tiers of play where the mechanical difficulties of a champion matter less for the matchups.

SoMNia3 votes

No she doesn't. Her traps apply the Hunted debuff, which roots monsters, but not champions or minions. Caitlyn has hard CC on her traps, though.

Uiru1 votes

I'm pretty sure roots aren't even hard cc. Hard cc is when you aren't fighting back- stuns, knockups, displacement, charm, taunts (you typically don't want to be attacking who you're attacking during taunts). Silence is arguable; if a mage gets silenced their damage output is effectively 0% so...

SoMNia1 votes

Well, either way, Nid has no CC at all versus enemy champions unless she builds it with items.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

Anything that interrupts channeled abilities is a hard CC.

Aeolian Melodies2 votes

No. Hard CC abilities are abilities that prevent your character from taking any action (movement, attack, spellcasting)

Forced displacement (knock up, knock back, pull, fling, knock aside, "vacuum effect") Stun Taunt Fear Terrify Charm Suppression

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