Now I will explain why off meta is not always trolling: If someone plays Teemo jungle most of the time his rank will reflect his performance with that champion as a jungler. He is playing at the elo level he is currently in with his TEEMO JUNGLE PICK. WHY IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND??? HE IS NOT TROLLING BECUASE HE IS PLAYING AT THE LEVEL HE IS SUPPOSED TO PLAY WITH HIS PICK. SO NEXT TIME YOU ACCUSE SOMEONE OF TROLLING PLS USE YOUR BRAIN FIRST.
Unstoppable Monk1 votesBut if someone picks something I don't play that means its troll /s
PureGold6691 votes??? as if that makes sense lol
Illabethe1 votesOkay. I went into this topic with an intent on defending it.
But......
Like the statement I just said..... which is a lot like what YOU just said.... the topic doesn't qualify a positive response.
Bottom line: Yes. Non meta picks are sometimes the RIGHT picks. For example, 
are all viable junglers who can actually carry games well into Diamond, maybe beyond with the right team compositions. But they are nonmeta picks that are actually lending themselves to the role.... They all have :
-CC ganks
-Good sustain clears that can even take advantage of jungle item boosted clears from 
in some cases.
-Are anti invade friendly. -Do better when they level up because of in built mechanics which grow at a support level of expectation on a jungler's XP.
HOWEVER. Teemo, Generally has none of these.
-Single target clear. -lowly productive leveling. -doesn't gain substantially in survivability/power compared to traditional roles. -Has no in built sustain.
He can jungle. Just not well.
But my negative comment really has nothing to do with Teemo. It has to do with your LOGIC.
You're basically implying:
Elo has nothing to do with the salience of a pick. You should be picking in respect to PROGRESSING your team, even if you are Bronze V, buried in all the crap that comes with it. You're suggesting that a spirited pick is basically the same thing as ....
-being a bad feeder -being a toxic teammate -having bad latency -poorly picking counters -poor team-manship -poor positioning -poor objective control.
But..... it's not. If you go in knowing full well.... I'm in ranked.... and I'm just choosing Teemo because I don't care about winning and want to try something new..... then..... yeah. That's trolling. I pick sometimes, but I do it because I'm confident I can win, and fill a hole in my team that otherwise exists. (I'm aware this isn't a ranked exclusive conversation, but when people complain about trolling.... it's normally ranked. People test all kinds of crap in Norms. You also mentioned that "rank")
[zombie-brand-mindblown]
Bobloser35551 votesI think you have not understood my post. About 90% of what you said has nothing to do with the topic. Also what do you mean with a spirited pick?
"Because I'm low elo, my teammates deserve a nonmeta no presence pick...... because they are also low elo."
No, I am saying, if I play Teemo jungle on Diamond level in Diamond, I am not trolling because I am not playing worse than my elo. Anyways, you put a lot of words in my mouth - non of which I have said.
Illabethe1 votesExcept.... that the case made for a Teemo in Diamond is vastly different than the case for a Teemo in Gold/Silver/Bronze.
The difference?
You can GET PLACED in the latter 3, and languish there for a considerable amount of time before you fall.
A Diamond Teemo deserves to be there. A Gold/Silver/Bronze Teemo may have just landed there out of matchmaking/placements.
(And I've never seen a successful jungle teemo in diamond...)
Bobloser35551 votesagain you it looks like you didnt even read the OP. So I wont answer since you're talking about something entirely different, make your own thread.
Illabethe1 votesI did. You're trying to argue that someone in an elo deserves to be there. I'm telling you why that's NOT true.
Bobloser35551 votesIf someone plays a lot of a certain champ, who may even be bad, but he played him/her enough that his ranking is an accurate reflection of his play strength, he is not putting his team at a disadvantage therefore he is not trolling even if it is off meta or a low win rate pick.
Pika Fox1 votesTeemo jungle is an actual thing. Hell, if pyke can jungle anyone can, pyke is literally the worst jungler in the game by design.
Illabethe1 voteshe's really not. He's the tankiest early game jungler in the game, and his synergies with 
clear pretty fast. And his ganks are phenomenal. Can build 
or and even 
or 
to increase clear speed if needed too.
You REALLY need to try it before knocking it.
I'm not saying you'll end the game with 50,000 damage. But you will have a successful clear, and if you're a good Pyke player, you will have a good KDA, a lot of CC score, etc. It's basically support jungling, which clears jungle well, but in a fight behaves like Pyke would as a support...... except..... higher levels, earlier R level thresholds, and good mana sustain. And he can gank top and mid early game, snowballing them as well... His access to Q angles as a jungler is also MUCH better.
And no. He's a better jungle design than a lot of champs. There's too many to list lol.
You can try to claim he has bad cooldowns all you want. But his cooldowns are on par with most other junglers who melee tbh, and his starting AD is higher than theirs, Armor is almost double theirs, and he has solid Scuttle CC too.
(I have almost 280k combined mastery on Pyke so far, almost exclusively in jungle)
He literally has better early game jungle sustain than 
.
Pika Fox1 votesHe has no jungle sustain, low AS, low base stats, CDs are far too high, literally one of the slowest clears possible in the jungle and easiest champs to kill in an invade.
He was intentionally made to not be viable in the jungle. Any competent enemy jungler will just steamroll you and get freelo.
Illabethe1 votesYou can write untruths all you want. Doesn't change the fact he has:
-One of the highest starting Armor and Resist rates -Has one of the HIGHEST Base attack speeds (# 21 @ .667, the highest being .694), and one of the mid range overall at 18 (.97) -His Base stats are ALL high (Same starting AD as Warwick and many other AD junglers) -His cooldowns are not unuseable in jungle, and have high output damage (Q specifically has a pretty fast clear, and E is a strong early game monster stun. -He is not invadeable. He has one of the strongest escape kits in the game, and also one of the strongest catch and kill kits when someone tries to chase. (I have NEVER been successfully invaded. And when I have lost monsters, I find Pyke is one of the EASIEST to catch up. All it takes is getting into lanes and securing a kill or two for team.
I am Diamond II dude. Mostly Jungling Pyke. Perhaps you know better than I do.
In an ideal game, I have level 6 by 5:45. Before anyone but mid lane. Right on track with ANY other jungler.
Pika Fox1 votesSo what youre saying is.... youre a free kill in diamond elo? I mean seriously, he was intentionally made to not be able to jungle, and is one of the worst junglers in the game. Any Udyr, Nunu, hell, flat out ANYONE who wants to just walk into your jungle now owns your jungle, and theres nothing you can do about it.
Illabethe1 votesI never die early game jungle, and I average 3 deaths a game.
Udyr and Nunu are two of the EASIEST junglers to counter.
Prime a Q, and throw as soon as they are almost in melee range. Throws them behind you, or over a wall, and wastes their initiates. Gives you time to get W and E up if need be. Puts Udyr on Bear cooldown, which allows you to duel a little if need be before escaping. Let jungle camps aggro him and then just punish him for the invade. If you lose to an Udyr, you're doing something horribly wrong.
The only junglers I fear as Pyke are 
Those three can make the early game tough. Xin just outfarms most junglers. He's not so much a threat in a duel, but he can put pressure on your dominance. Warwick can chase low HP and speed up attack while healing. You might be able to escape him, but you can't duel him. Tryn can spin walls, and slow your escape, and late game his passive AD gain becomes dangerous to Pyke, as well as his R depriving you of Ult potentials.
That's about it.
I used to fear 
, but even he's killable now. Just have to time a E for when he emerges from his R, dance around him a bit and use his cooldowns against him. Execute him mid wall as he tries to escape.
Pika Fox1 votesCool, you managed to not get killed by an udyr/nunu..... aaaand all your jungle is dead and your level 2, enemy is level 6, and youre worthless to your team with 15 second CDs. GG.
Illabethe1 votesWhere the f do you get that I would fall behind levels vs other junglers? Keep arguing nonsense lol. I'm level 3 in 3 camps. I'm almost level 5 by the first clear. 2 camps into second clear I'm level 6. I average 1280 gold in my first clear.... Not a hard champ to clear with....
Also, in high elo, lane champs respond to invades. If Udyr invades me, my mid/top are going to help me kill him. Not hard....
Q cooldown goes down. So does W. His very first back buy is either 
or or 
.... all of which mitigate the CDR issue.
You're basically arguing that no tank can jungle, no single target attacker can jungle... which are both patently false. They are some of the BEST junglers.
Pika Fox1 votesGiven youll be in 2 auto territory, it doesnt matter if your lanes respond, especially since either of them can clear pretty much instantly. Your jungle would be theirs immediately.
Illabethe1 votes2 Auto territory? wtf are you even smoking?
Pika Fox1 votesYou have almost 0 hp/5, and passive doesnt work on monsters. Youre not gunna be healthy.
Illabethe1 votesIt's called knowing how to orb, and having one of the highest starting Armor rates.
If you have 4 Krugs spawned, that's 48 potential heals per tick from . 6 Raptor = 72 per tick. And you have 2 aoes to hit them all with, on intervals. You can also rotate targets and keep red buff going on 3-4 at a time, as well to manual proc the heals.
I don't smite Red. I smite the second Krug (medium) that spawns after I kill the large Krug. Then I either have a smite up for the large Raptor or kill Scuttle, which recovers me from about 45% Hp to about 90% HP. Raptors are easy.
Still have Red up for Wolves and some of Blue, unless I level 3 ganked. Easy camps.
By the time you get to Gromp.... Gromp can hurt a little. But I usually have Nullifying Orb, which can soak 1-2 hits, so he's really not that bad, and by then, I'm ready to recall anyways.
Leashless Pyke sometimes sucks, but is still extremely doable. I generally end a self level 1 Red with about 55% HP left. It makes me have to move around a little more at Krugs, but loses me only about 16 seconds.
On ganks I generally have 60-70% HP.
Second Clear, Pyke takes almost no damage at all.
Pika Fox1 votes2 abilities with minimal damage and CDs comparable to like 1/3rd the rosters ult CDs at this point. Lets say you use your abilities. GG youre now dead, udyr and nunu walked 5 feet and slapped you.
Illabethe1 votesLet's compare Tiger stance to Pyke Q.
Udyr Q level 1-3:
30 + 83.52 = 113.52 damage.
Pyke Q level 1-3:
86.25 + whatever runes Pyke has *.6 (If he has Health runes, he has higher AD, so this is a sliding number)
Yeah. It's a bad duel. But that's why you don't DUEL.
How is 4-15 seconds comparable to 1/3 the roster's Ults? lmfao.
Udyr literally cannot kill or outrun Pyke. Even early game, you have E, W, and a Flash to burn to get away or set a trap. Late game, your skills are up so often that you can run circles around Udyr. W > Walk up to Udyr > Stab > E away. If he follows, he's stunned, takes more damage, and can't even Turtle you to heal. Tease him. and then R him once he's bad HP.
Not a hard matchup at all.
Seriously don't know why you are scared of Nunu as Pyke.
Colton1471 votes
iPooUnicorns1 votesTrolling == actively trying to lose the game. Playing off meta is still trying to win, just in a unorthodox manner.