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Luden's and why it's problematic

For Carthage··4 votes·948 views

So Riot did a piece on Luden's earlier in which I'm surprised to find no mention of how it's unbalanced.

It is unbalanced, by the way. And not how most would consider it. While the passive is the main reason some champs seek it (I.E., some bonus damage on their most lackluster abilities), there's a much better reason to get Luden's.

Say hello to 7% bonus movement speed. While percentage MS boosts are not new to the game at all, this item brings in a new problem. See, all other movement speed boosting items come with one major stipulation - you have to be within auto-attacking range. Luden's active on the other hand allows you to stay at a distance - free damage at long range.

Of course, this also runs the problem that the bonus movement speed is more than normal. Only two items go higher, and that's Trinity Force and Swift Zephyr - one's only useful on AD casters and the other's only useful on... Udyr, really. Basically, this item removes a lot of champions' weakness - the lack of mobility. Lux, Kog, Syndra, Brand - all gain ridiculous amounts from this item just from the sheer fact that they can basically start outrunning everyone else with its bonus movement speed on top of their inherent CC. Throw Rylai's on there and why the hell would anybody ever be able to catch you from your range?

So how do you balance this? Well, currently it's a set movement speed - permanently you have 7% increased speed. At 300, you have 21 bonus speed, which is more speed than even the Rage passive on Black Cleaver and Trinity Force offer. So instead of having the 7% increased speed, give Luden's the unique passive "Rage", and treat it like an AP version of Black Cleaver - magic damage on hit will speed you up.

20 set movement speed, the counter is dodging their abilities. Rewards for both sides.

25 Comments

DrCyanide4 votes

[{quoted}](name=For Carthage,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zL7o1s5W,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-05-05T21:00:00.355+0000)

Say hello to 7% bonus movement speed. While percentage MS boosts are not new to the game at all, this item brings in a new problem. See, all other movement speed boosting items come with one major stipulation - you have to be within auto-attacking range.

Uh....

item 3023 - 6% Movespeed

For Carthage1 votes

Ghosts don't offer 120 AP with a damage amp. They offer no steroid other than a possible slow on two people at random. It's not used by most AP carries and is usually reserved for AP supports.

Otherwise Lich Bane doesn't require you to be in AA range either if all you cared about as the raw AP you're getting from it.

FirstSergeantBim1 votes

I thought of the same thing that same paragraph. Regardless of everything you've said, the 80 AP is still considerable AP and that AP directly buffs all of those abilities that are "outside of AA range". That makes it the same "type of item" that Luden's Echo is. I'm surprised you've not made the decree "Twin Shadows: OP, Can Speed up Mages and Slow AA Reliant Champions. This must be stopped!"

Regardless of that, I think that it's silly to latch onto these arbitrary themes found throughout the game. It makes me chuckle to think that in Ghostcrawler's office there are two stone tablets with commandments given from the PvP Gods dictating the rules of itemization, but I digress. If it has been organized a certain way before, it will probably change because there are no rules set in stone when it comes to anything. They've changed so much already. Look what they did to trinkets. Look what they did to the jungle machete. They keep reworking itemization and it keeps getting better and better.

I think it's awesome they put movement speed on a mage item. It makes it so much more fun to play a mage! I hate being slow and squishy. It's one thing to be slow and tanky, but slow and squishy is no fun at all. Huge quality of life buff for so many people. Furthermore, the level of mobility in this game has been increased substantially since they so purposefully decided to only include move-speed on "items that require you to be in AA range". Seems fair and seems more fun. Thumbs up Riot!

Meep Man2 votes

All of the champions who pick this item up are still pretty immobile. Considering them mobile upon picking it up is like considering Garen mobile since has his speed boost. HOWEVER, the idea you bring up of a magic damage Rage is a pretty cool idea.

AtheosisX1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zL7o1s5W,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-05-05T21:02:12.484+0000)

All of the champions who pick this item up are still pretty immobile. Considering them mobile upon picking it up is like considering Garen mobile since has his speed boost. HOWEVER, the idea you bring up of a magic damage Rage is a pretty cool idea.

Err...AP assassins with lots of mobility are using it a lot too.

DJ Di02 votes

{quoted}

Err...AP assassins with lots of mobility are using it a lot too.

But for an entirely different reason that "oh look, 20 movement speed."

For Carthage1 votes

Immobile as in they don't have jumps or dashes. Most of these mages are incredibly long ranged and their weakness was that they were also really, really slow, not that they just couldn't jump over everything at will. Comparing them to Garen is comparing apples to oranges - Garen requires being in your face and will bring himself to you. 800+ ranged mages on the other hand just have to outrange you since they now have the MS to keep themselves away from you. Mobility means far more when you're ranged because you don't need the mobility to do your job - basically, it's an added bonus rather than an absolute necessity.

Lux 325, Syndra 330, Kog'Maw 325. All slow, all very long ranged. You dodged their abilities, though, and you'd be able to outrun them and catch up. Now it's literally "You only have boots? Unfortunate. You'd have to have a base speed of 355 in order to actually catch up to me since this nifty item has upped my speed by 22 more than usual, and only one champ has that high of a base speed."

Lux can hit over 395, Brand can hit over 410, Syndra can hit over 400 - There are actually not a ton of melee champs that hit those movement speeds without Trin Force or another item, and usually that item serves almost no tactical purpose for them unless they really just feel like getting blown the hell up. And this is just free MS - it's not like Black Cleaver where once you're out of the bastard's range or you dodge their abilities you're home free, it's a blatant speed boost that actually offers more speed than that item. On top of having to proc the effect of Black Cleaver, you also get to be sad that it won't even offer you enough speed to really put it to meaningful use if you so much as stub your toe on some minor CC. The Rage aspect is meant to offer the same stats - because immobile mages could still use some mobility boost - but offer counterplay to it in that if you as a player dodge the mage's abilities, then you will be rewarded with being able to catch them easier/at all. Otherwise, they're literally just going to chuck endless CC in your face laced with Rylai's slow and keep all melees at bay - you'd basically require another sniper to take out their sniper.

Strawberrycocoa2 votes

Low mobility champions need that MS boost to have a chance in hell of fleeing the gap-closer spammy assassins, though.

For Carthage2 votes

That's the entire point. That was their counter.

Any one of those champions has range. Atrocious range. Range outside of the vast majority of gap closers with the only one reaching an 800 unit jump being Fizz's E and LeBlanc's W and R combined. Their weakness was that they could be caught. That was it. They aren't especially squishy when compared to anybody else - it's just that they're immobile. Now remove the immobility, take the range.

If somebody is already outranging you, you have to do the work of reaching them. They're not going to come to you - you have to go to them. So if they're able to have a far, far easier time keeping away from you by matching your speed, there's not a way in hell you're catching up before they chunk out your health. The reason why Lux had 325 base MS is because she's already obnoxious to catch - snares keep you away and locked down and her E keeps you slowed down as well. There's a reason she was called a "kite" mage. Now her job is ten times easier by the fact that she's also far faster - and this wouldn't be so much of an issue if she wasn't always several hundred units out of range. Even with Kalista's incessant hopping you can still lock her down with any point and click - Lux is just not there to do that with. Luden's has made a bunch of skill snipers that now have little to no risk for a lot of reward.

I got to watch a Brand support kite out and kill an entire team just because he had Luden's and Rylai's - his passive kept Rylai's slowing them and Luden's kept him able to outrun them whether they dodged his abilities or not. He was several times faster than them. Very few champs have the actual ability to jump that distance. The reason why it happened before was because they were able to catch up - now it's all hoping the enemy makes a mistake in positioning rather than trying not to make a mistake yourself or making a clever play. There's no reason you should be caught with a mage like that during a teamfight now.

Strawberrycocoa2 votes

It sounds like your assuming a chase scenario. What about ambushes, getting pounced upon from brush or around a wall? Jinx and other marksmen and mages without mobility skills need SOMETHING to help them have a chance of surviving such an encounter.

If you don't like having to chase people down in the open, then go AROUND. Flank them, surround them, don't just run directly at them.

For Carthage1 votes

An ambush was the top way to deal with them in the first place. Why do you think they tell you not to face-check the goddamn brush? They don't NEED something to have them survive such an encounter as it's not their job to be scouting anyway - even besides, most forms of hard CC would render that kind of scenario moot because any champ would stand no chance.

And you're assuming that going around is an option. In a teamfight, taking ten more seconds to work your way around the map is the difference between your team getting trounced by the enemy nuker and you being able to pounce on them. With a higher movement speed anyway, they can easily maneuver away from your flanking maneuver anyway. It's making taking down a certain champ - a champ with absolutely no dueling potential, mind you - almost impossible to do by yourself. This differs from dueling in that in a duel, the other champ is straight up duking it out with you, taking blows themselves. You can play duels intelligently by kiting around a turret, exhausting, etc. - play it smart to win, but there is still direct danger to you at every point. What this item enables is for you to remove all danger from yourself - a couple wards on your back and you're not getting caught. Positioning doesn't exist as an issue when you can outrun the enemy at every turn and keep them locked down on top of that.

Strawberrycocoa1 votes

So, what, there's no move speed enhancers you can buy yourself to neutralize this advantage? I know you're aware of item 3078 item 3172 because you mention them, but you didn't mention item 3087. Also, are you forgetting all the other items you can use to add your own slows?

item 3022 item 3025 item 3143, or even a item 3009 item 3111 to weaken their slowing?

For Carthage1 votes

Randuin's requires you to be on top of them, Frozen requires you to be able to AA them (which unless your AA range is 800 units...), same with Iceborn. Merc Treads is a normal but doesn't add any more MS than normal, and boots of swiftness is forcing you to blatantly abandon other utility and tank attributes just for a chance to get close (and they don't stop hard CC). Static Shiv, again, requires you to be in AA range (again, unless your AA range is 800), and it offers less MS regardless. That's why I didn't even bother mentioning it by name.

So tell me again how you should ever have a problem if you're sitting outside the range as an absurdly fast sniper?

Zorae421 votes

[{quoted}](name=For Carthage,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zL7o1s5W,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-05-06T11:24:02.747+0000)

Any one of those champions has range. Atrocious range. Range outside of the vast majority of gap closers with the only one reaching an 800 unit jump being Fizz's E and LeBlanc's W and R combined.

Excuse me?

  • Akali: Her jump is only 700 units, but can store multiple charges
  • Zed: Shadow is 550, but Shurikens are 900 and ult 625. He can easily W+Ult to reach them, or just poke w/ Shurikens if they're not low enough
  • Kat: Shunpo is 700, and she gets Ludens so it's not like you'll be able to outrun her anyway
  • Lee Sin: Exists
  • Kassadin: Riftwalk is 500 but has a short CD, plus his Q and E have over 600
  • Kha'Zix: Upgraded E has 900
  • Fiora: Lunge has 600, can be double cast. Plus her E gives her movement speed
  • Nidalee: Also Exists
  • Gnar: Can double hop up to 950
  • Shyvana: Ult is 1000, can activate W to get significant move speed

Just about all of the mid lane assassins are can easily reach them. I even threw in some top laners and junglers just for more examples. Tell me again how people with gap closers can't reach ranged mages that have a tiny bit extra move speed?

For Carthage1 votes

All these mages already pack a form of hard CC on them. Nidalee's jump is only 700 towards the hunted champ and will only work if she hits a spear. Kha'Zix can't do shit until he upgrades his E (only 600 range). Fiora would thereby require a primary target to jump to before jumping to her other target. Gnar basically announces his intent to jump and would not likely actually catch anybody off guard. Shyvana is (surprise) countered by mere permaslows and hard CC, which Rylai's packs enough slow to keep her at bay. All others are less than 800, and Zed's already bitched about enough as is that I wouldn't say it's impossible for a nerf to hit his range. Akali also requires another target first to do the job of reaching her target, and Kassawin's ult isn't short enough to keep him from getting knocked over the head with some form of hard CC. Lee Sin is laughable late and can be seen coming from a mile away, so lining up CC for his entrance is easy as all hell.

Meanwhile, Xin Zhao, Aatrox, Alistar, Renekton, Quinn, Wukong, Maokai, and Tryndamere are all examples of champions with gap closers that can't make the distance. Additionally, there are numerous champions without gap closers that are also vastly outranged by these snipers and have no reliable way to reach and inflict damage on these champions.

Zorae422 votes

Nidalee has to hit with a 1500 range spear and both it and her pounce are on ridiculously short CDs. Don't rush/chase them without a minion wave/other enemy champ between you and them then.

At first you were complaining that if you dodged their CC you couldn't catch them, now you're saying that if you get CC'd you can't catch them. I'm pretty sure that's working perfectly fine. If you could catch them after getting CC'd they'd be useless.

If every champion had a gap closer, then there'd be no point in playing a ranged champion. All of their usual lane opponents have some way of dealing with them. So what if some of the top laners aren't capable of shutting her down? As long as you have someone on your team that can (which should be incredibly easy since so many do have gap closers), then it's fine.

FirstSergeantBim1 votes

Yeah, what Zorae said. That sounds like balance to me.

Leblancs Boob1 votes

It's not even that good. Such a situational item. Unlike DFG that gave you an absurd amount of kill pressure, Luden's really only gives you small extra burst, while sacrificing any kind of defensive stat.

x No Heart1 votes

Luden's Echo, regardless of how "problematic" it is, is way more fun to play against than Zhonya's, Deathfire Grasp, and Athene's, which offer less counterplay and offer more impactful and defined choices.

IMO, it's the best AP item to come out of Riot since the original Wooglet's Deathcap.

x No Heart1 votes

item 3153 Blade of the Ruined King item 3042 Muramana item 3139 Mercurial Scimitar item 3087 Statikk Shiv

Look at all the great things Riot's done for AD items. It's about time AP champions got some love, too, don't you think? They've removed DFG, nerfed Grail, and haven't added anything great in the past few years aside from Liandries (which is considered a bruiser item anyhow!)

For Carthage1 votes

They also nerfed all MR items and rebuffed Grail. Besides, I offered a solution to the lack of counterplay - adding Rage as a proc on AP damage for mages will allow for the enemy side to feel rewarded for dodging abilities rather than "How the fuck are we going to catch the 415 MS Lux? She's literally just chucking out her Q and her E from out of the darkness and blasting her laser until we're poked down, and we can't outrange her or outrun her."

Mind you, Lux is just an example. Brand, Syndra, Xerath - all equally obnoxiously ranged and now can outsprint Pantheon.

x No Heart1 votes

League of Tanks and ranged engage - poke needs to be necessary or every comp remains a teamfight comp. Amumu Chogath Gragas Hecarim Maokai Nautilus Sejuani Sion Vi Zac

item 3717 item 3190 item 3143 item 3069 item 3800

DrNova1 votes

This item is a non issue, waste of a thread.

There is always one guy bitching about everything. I'm sure there is, somewhere, a thread complaining about health pots.

TheGrandAlliance1 votes

Before I was so rudely interrupted by RIOT with the deletion of my last post... I wish to reiterate that anyone downvoting this thread is being facetious and misleading in their actions. People are also trolling this thread (like the post above) without logical argumentation when the OP has clearly articulated a fair analysis.

There can be no dening that stacking mobility on AP champions that already have high mobility such as Ahri is just adding even more mobility to this game and thus an unintended/unforeseen/unaccounted consequence of new items to the game.

People need to learn to save their downvoting for troll threads/posts and NOT waste them on logical and civil debates such as this one.

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