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Remember when Sion was THE infinitely stacking hp character?

Lordk0z··61 votes·7,679 views

Honestly, at this point Cho'gath really overtook sion as the big ultra-lategame Titanic Hydra wielding meatwall. Just compare the two.

Sion: 543 – 1784 Base Hp Cho'gath: 574 – 1934 Base Hp "Tanky" Champion average: 2000-2400ish Base hp

Sion "Pays" more for the potential power of his hp farming than Cho'gath, with a much lower base hp.

Cho'gath gains 80-160 hp each feast, while Sion gains 2 hp per minion and 10 hp per large monster or Champion takedown. Even if Sion survives all the way through an aced fight, he'll only gain 50 hp to Cho'gaths minimum of 80 for landing his ult once.

Granted, it's part of his ultimate, but one of the few parts of Sion to be kept from his old incarnation was his ability to stack his health up via farming. It's one of the core elements of Sion to be kept, and I really feel like he's being overshadowed by someone else at his own game here.

Is there any plans to increase Sion's overall health pool or make his hp farming capabilities more effective?

94 Comments

BLACK REALM GOD32 votes

i think they brought it over because to them it just makes sense to cho-gaths theme. he's the nightmare that eats and grows non-stop. sion has a new identity now - the unstoppable war train. so cho-gath is the new HP scaling terror (honestly when you think about who they are and what they are it all makes sense)

Xela Syab5 votes

he was unstoppable until he took a Polymorph to the knees.

Dominick Destine16 votes

I have no idea why they decided to give Cho Gath infinte health scaling.

Aside from taking Sion's one niche, it just makes no sense to give such strong HP scaling alongside true damage, wtf were they thinking

Milodic Mellodi6 votes

Assuming they were thinking?

Leaf of the lake33 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zGntWkE2,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-03-27T08:21:45.410+0000)

I have no idea why they decided to give Cho Gath infinte health scaling.

Aside from taking Sion's one niche, it just makes no sense to give such strong HP scaling alongside true damage, wtf were they thinking

"His one niche"

Does anyone actually play sion because of the infinite HP stacking? You play sion because of his kit. Not a shitty passive.

Lordk0z15 votes

It's not what you play Sion for, but it's still a strong part of his identity. Pretty much the only thing to be kept from Sion 1.0.

Oleandervine1 votes

{quoted}

It's not what you play Sion for, but it's still a strong part of his identity. Pretty much the only thing to be kept from Sion 1.0.

They kept his HP stacking and his exploding shield, as well as his passive being a version of his old ultimate.

AlienPrimate1 votes

They attempted to keep his roaming aspect of his old mid gameplay but that was a total flop. His ult is so hard to control and telegraphed so hitting someone from a side angle running down river is extremely difficult.

Glory ln Death5 votes

You just have to practice it and know how to manipulate your enemies. Your goal shouldn't always be to hit them no matter what - it's just as effective to make them move the way you want them to (like how you can use Q to bait out their dash or flash before a big play). Force them towards your team, force them towards the river instead of their tower, split their team, etc.

Baron of Bread3 votes

The exploding shield was part of his AP identity, and in that case the shield actually did a ton of damage (I know that AD Sion had it too but it was barely noticeable for him). As far as the passive being his old ultimate, that is a joke. As someone who played AD Sion the passive does not feel at all similar to the old ult.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

Hey hey hey, they kept the iconic W detonation sound effect too.

junglerboy163 votes

His HP stacking is actually really strong in the right context (which is not the current meta of fast games) I usually hit 800-900 bonus HP by late game, which is a solid gold value and really contributes to his durability. Also, without his HP stacking, the rest of his kit is much weaker, because he can't afford to take as many hits for every interrupted Q, or draw as much focus from enemies with his passive (which is the real goal, not dealing damage but the threat of him killing someone if not killed twice).

So yeah, his HP scaling on most any other champ would be pretty pathetic, but it synergizes with his kit in a way that enables a unique play style otherwise not possible.

Paquay1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Leaf of the lake,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zGntWkE2,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2017-03-27T08:34:19.268+0000)

"His one niche"

Does anyone actually play sion because of the infinite HP stacking? You play sion because of his kit. Not a shitty passive.

Actually, I play Sion because I don't have any rerolls left in ARAM. :/

Try stacking hp there. sigh

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Yorick Try summoning cockroaches Ghouls. . .

Paquay1 votes

Touché. The only Yorick's that stack them are on the enemy team. Never your own team.

It's like a good Yasuo player. They're only red.

SettDownShutUp1 votes

I really liked Sion's infinite scaling. It played well into the idea of this unstoppable monsters late game. Sadly lategame appears less and less, hence why it feels so shit.

Clementine7 votes

At least Sion is fun to play, Chogath is a snoozefest.

mrgiraffeweevil5 votes

Until I saw it wasn't in memes and games, I thought it would say "Pepperidge farms remembers."

Gregor Gysi3 votes

Honestly though, Cho was always the HP stack champion, Sion's stacking is not nearly as important for him.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Gregor Gysi,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zGntWkE2,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-03-27T08:51:23.164+0000)

Honestly though, Cho was always the HP stack champion, Sion's stacking is not nearly as important for him.

Cho's the half AP juggernaut, not an HP stack champion.

Anhartamin3 votes

[deleted]

DarkRitual1 votes

Instead of buffs, how about power-neutral changes that don't FEEL terrible for the player?

Troll for Trump1 votes

Instead of buffs, how about power-neutral changes that don't FEEL terrible for the player?

Have you considered how it feels to be a Cho'gath player? To play something that's a awkward tanky melee AP juggernaut kitable mage that doesn't do a good job at anything?

I don't like them pigeonholing him into being a tank and slowly going away from an AP burst mage, but at least he gets some attention.

DarkRitual1 votes

We're talking about Sion in this sub-discussion.

Troll for Trump1 votes

But the post I replied to complains about Riot seemingly showing some favoritism to Cho'gath.

It implies that Riot buffing Cho'gath makes Sion players feel worse

Chromatic Eagle3 votes

I may not be a pro at Sion, but I didn't even know that the health stacking was his niche. I thought it was a remnant of his old kit or something?

Illâoi Evê Siôn3 votes

"This other guy is able to stack Health infinitely, too, so let's buff up everyone else who can do that to his level!"

Sion is fine. How the hell does Cho'Gath's existence justify him getting buffs?

woodvsmurph3 votes

Cho needs to KILL someone with ult or he doesn't get the hp. After 6 stacks, cho needs to KILL baron, drag, or enemy CHAMP with ult - no killing minions to further his hp unlike sion. So it is actually easier for sion to continue stacking as long as he gets to farm. Also sion gets started as early as lvl 1 (usually lvl 2 or 3 though) while cho has to wait for lvl 6.

That said, I do think both could use some love. Cho's lvl 1-5 is just plain weak with mana costs WAY TOO HIGH and too long of cd's on abilities to be viable in many toplane matchups which is where they seem to be pushing him with the changes to ult. The payoff of his better ult hardly changes that. Sion just really suffers from not being tanky enough without items and tons of stacks from his w shield for killing minions and stuff. So both of them could use some love in my opinion. Sion to be tankier early on (maybe better base shield strength but less %hp scaling on shield? to make him tankier early on); cho to be able to cast more than 3 abilities in 15 sec without going oom. Perhaps they could revisit cho passive and give it less hp refund and more mana refund for killing stuff - closer to a 50/50 hp/mana refund.

Troll for Trump3 votes

Because the rest of Sion's kit is more helpful than Cho'gath's EXTREMELY outdated kit.

The only reason Cho isn't dead is because he still has silence. He's not picked because of his unreliable melee true dmg nuke.

He'd be picked for having a smite in his kit, being able to survive in lane, and being one of the few champs with silences that isn't squishy.

Overall, Sion's reworked kit just offers more than Cho'gath.

Only role cho'gath does better is jgl

RainbowIcee1 votes

Tbh preReworked sion would have been beast atm with the new masteries and items. So even preWorked sion was better... Not that he was actually bad. He was just unstoppable once he got ahead and the good sion players were cancerous asf

Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votes

I mean the same could be said for Old Poppy and Old Karma with the current masteries, Armor pen and support items.

No idea why karma got updated, but Poppy and Sion both shared the same problem in the past.

Requiemsfire3 votes

Because Sion's theme isn't about stacking HP

EvanThomas3 votes

Everyone talking about Sion's HP stacking like it was his thing.

That's simply not the case. Now, I'm no Sion main, but I think if you had to pick ONE part of Sion's kit to make his "thing," it would undoubtedly be his passive. If any of you have watched Tilterella, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

Tychusfindlay9192 votes

{quoted}

Everyone talking about Sion's HP stacking like it was his thing.

That's simply not the case. Now, I'm no Sion main, but I think if you had to pick ONE part of Sion's kit to make his "thing," it would undoubtedly be his passive. If any of you have watched Tilterella, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

Old sion or new sion?

Because old sion was legitimately known for his ability to get RIDICULOUS amounts of HP through his E. The new one has the mechanic to simply bring him up to par with other tanks' base stats.

EvanThomas1 votes

I meant new sion. Looking back on the post, I guess OP might've been talking about old sion, but the wording was confusing, as they said that Cho'gath just overtook him in hp stacking. That made me think OP thought that hp stacking is sion's current niche. They probably meant old sion.

That being said, i still think cho'gath still fits better with the hp stacking mechanic than sion as their core mechanic. That's what I was trying to convey through my comment.

Lordk0z1 votes

I mentioned Hp stacking because that was one of the few things that linked Old Sion to New Sion. That, and some basic elements of his Lore as an undead axe-wielding barbarian warrior were all that remained of Sion, the barest, most essential parts that Rito took as the foundations to build on and create the new Sion. Sion's gameplay may not be defined by his ability to stack hp, but it's something that's undeniably a key part of who he is, and what he is.

Yaskamasandwich3 votes

Yayy other people noticed Cho'gath copying one of Sion's niches.

My problem with it is not only the stealing part, but the fact that it puts Cho'gath in an even worse spot. Infinite stacks are hard to balance even more so when connected to damage, look at Kindred as the best example. Only reason Sion's was balanced was because his base and scaling HP took a hit, and it wasn't connected to damage but only to his surivalbility. Also HP is easier to counter with all the %HP damage and what not.

Now Cho'gath is in a worse spot with having an infinite scaling that especially is connected to damage. Riot can't fix him up anymore because of the nightmarish potential he could bring if he gets buffed. Cho'gath needed to be worked on, not steal something.

Asayake 5150glow2 votes

{quoted}

Yayy other people noticed Cho'gath copying one of Sion's niches.

My problem with it is not only the stealing part, but the fact that it puts Cho'gath in an even worse spot. Infinite stacks are hard to balance even more so when connected to damage, look at Kindred as the best example. Only reason Sion's was balanced was because his base and scaling HP took a hit, and it wasn't connected to damage but only to his surivalbility. Also HP is easier to counter with all the %HP damage and what not.

Now Cho'gath is in a worse spot with having an infinite scaling that especially is connected to damage. Riot can't fix him up anymore because of the nightmarish potential he could bring if he gets buffed. Cho'gath needed to be worked on, not steal something.

4k 200 armor and MR Cho is really hard to fight as a melee, he's basically an AP juggernaut now, a better version of Morde. More damage in melee range due to tremendous ult damage, much tankier base stats and steroids, better sustain out of combat and still decent if he clips minions with his Q/W/E, has CC and utility.

Sexy Jack Rabbit3 votes

Tbh half the time I forget Sion even has that mechanic. It's hardly part of his identity, and if they just outright removed it (not that they should) and buffed his base stats the only ones who would notice the difference would be mains, and that's partially just due to his low playrate.

It's just seriously not core to his kit, or even his lore. It makes more sense for it to be on Cho'Gath. But all of that even there I don't see why there is n't allowed for there to be some overlap between champions.

It's not like Cho'gath crowds out Sion and makes him irrelevant just because he has a similar mechanic.

Guyy Fieri2 votes

The difference is that Sion truly has infinite scaling off his W. Cho'gath only gets to stack off 6 minions. Late, one minion stack by Cho'gath is worth 80 cs for Sion (that's not counting takedowns or large minions/monsters)

h5LYF41Lam2 votes

cho doesnt have a shield that scales off of hp thats why he has more hp.

Tahminatrix 1 votes

But cho gets damage that scales more with hit ult and is easier to pull off.

TheTracer21 votes

Chogaths Hp stacking IS NOT infinite, it caps at 26 stacks. Now you can try and ignore that fact and cry about how hel usually still have a higher hp than sion. That doesnt change that Chogath's stacking is capped and Sions is not, ALSO champion and minions killed stacks sions where chogath can only get 6 stacks form non champion entities..

BIAKaboose2 votes

I don't know where you got the info that it caps at 26 stacks unless that is based on x stacks per time interval, but if that's the case then Sion has a "cap" too.

While Sion can stack off of minions assuming he has perfect CS across 3 waves which would be 90 seconds (10 seconds longer than Cho's ultimate CD) that still only comes to 46 HP, Cho gets almost double that with one cast of only his rank 1 ultimate, which as his ult levels up gets even more retroactively. One solid kill for Cho late game is 150 HP, Sion would have to ace the enemy team 3 times to get that much, and he doesn't get infinitely scaling true damage from his HP that then helps him get even more HP.

Champion Skin1 votes

Sion actually gains between 46-66 HP per 90 seconds if he gets perfect CS on all 3 waves (since Cannon minions spawn every 3rd way scaling up to every 2nd wave after 20 min and every wave after 35 min)

Also Sion can stack from level 1 while Cho'gath needs to wait untill level 6 (and using it on minions does put his ult on cooldown making it unavailable for fights for a while and it is a decent amount of Cho'gaths damage)

and he doesn't get infinitely scaling true damage from his HP that then helps him get even more HP.

Well yes but instead he gains an infinitely scaling shield which is on a basic ability and thus is on a much lower cooldown

BIAKaboose1 votes

But even so after 35 minutes Sion shouldn't be getting perfect CS if he's sticking with his team and tanking for them, the ADC or a mage will just nuke the minions meaning his last hits will be rare if present at all, usually resulting from Sunfire Cape or Titanic clipping one of the casters or something. By that point Cho'Gath should also not be getting any stacks from minions since he will probably have either eaten some minions in down time or ult finished dragons/herald/nashor since he out smites, well, smite for most of the game.

Once the tanks aren't the minion farmers anymore Cho'Gath and Sion isn't even really much of a contest in terms of who gets more HP since if Sion's team can ace you 3 times consecutively you've already lost, and Cho only needs one successful ult in any of the 3 fights to come out ahead even, actually.

Not that I really want Sion buffed in terms of his health gain, I play high damage Sion in terms of items so if the health gain gets any better I'm going to actually just be disgusted and not play him anymore.

TheTracer21 votes

"i dont know where you got that info" practice mode. its not that hard, you can try it yourself. UNLESS they changed it, because i tried it when it first came out. Also bunnyfufuu made a video about it when it irst came out to also back it up.

BIAKaboose1 votes

Huh, well alright, just figured there would have been something in the wiki/client to show a max on stacks if there was one.

Regardless though, if a Cho manages to get 26 stacks in a game (That would be an extra what, 3900 extra HP) you've got some problems, and theoretically he could get that much faster than Sion could farm 3900 HP off of either minions or kills unless the entire enemy team is actively feeding him kills and he's triple proxying, and even then I'm not sure (Though I won't be doing the math right now, it's like 5AM and I'm kind of tired.)

Even looking at just the minion stacks later in the game, every minion Cho has eaten is equivalent to Sion having killed 75 normal minions, which is a much larger time investment that Sion has to make if he even can given the situations in the game. Sure if a game lasts 4 hours Sion will eventually come out ahead due to literal infinite stacking, but Cho beats him hard given the current extremely short average game times.

FantasySniper1 votes

So should Sion get more base health, or 50% more HP from the passive?

Glory ln Death2 votes

Sion doesn't need buffs, and his health stacking absolutely should not get buffed.

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