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What is the best itemization for supports like karma, zyra and vel koz?

Deliberate Inter··1 votes·2,705 views

Do u just go redemption or do you go penetration and is coin targon or spell better?

32 Comments

Oleandervine2 votes

My best success is: item 3092 item 3116 item 3151 as core items. This applies to Morgana too. Then, depending on the situation, I'll do these: item 3905 item 3135 item 3165 item 3020 item 3117 item 3102 item 2065

Deliberate Inter1 votes

Sorry, i 'm new can you explain the reasoning for these items because I can't imagine the situationallypart yet I don't have the context

Saezio1 votes

Zyra and velkoz need mask and always spellthief and maybe pair it with some spooky ghosts and a zhonya (ingenious is nice for this build too)

Karma has 2 paths, if you have a team that wants to run into the enemy you better go something like athenes redemption (again with spellthiefs) to maximize your RE (never RQ with this if you are not in lane and about to secure a kill)

If for some reason you picked karma to do damage I guess you would go for the first path but I would suggest you pick something other than karma if damage is what you want

Deliberate Inter1 votes

The only time I played karma I picked her mid lane because I had a zed in my lobby complaining about his ping and then there was a dodge and I assumed he was on the other team and I wanted to speed boost into his face when he tried to WEQ me and it worked out really nicely.

Oleandervine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Brony Gaymer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zE9ygQoM,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-02-18T14:50:06.524+0000)

The only time I played karma I picked her mid lane because I had a zed in my lobby complaining about his ping and then there was a dodge and I assumed he was on the other team and I wanted to speed boost into his face when he tried to WEQ me and it worked out really nicely.

It depends on what sort of offense/utility you need. If you're against high mobility, Twin Shadows or Shurelya's are good picks. If you're against healing like Soraka, Mundo, Nasus, etc, go with Morellonomicon. And then if you're against high MR, go with Void Staff and Morello. You have to have options to adapt to various situations that the game throws at you, because one-and-done builds never work.

Deliberate Inter1 votes

Does summoner spell heal or a vamp scepter constitute healing? how about the rune that heals when you damage a champion/? Corruption potion? Ocean drake? Red buff?

Oleandervine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Brony Gaymer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zE9ygQoM,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-18T15:11:50.560+0000)

Does summoner spell heal or a vamp scepter constitute healing? how about the rune that heals when you damage a champion/? Corruption potion? Ocean drake? Red buff?

Generally an champion who has massive healing in their kit, like Soraka, Mundo, and Nasus, or champions who are stacking a lot of lifesteal (though this doesn't happen a lot in bot lane anymore considering most people try to get crit online before anything else). Things like potions, and the red buff aren't consistent enough to warrant Grievous Wounds, and the drake only applies out of combat.

Deliberate Inter1 votes

When does lifesteal usually warrant GW ? when you just negate a lot of healing and call that value? When it makes the lifestealer have to play differently or choose different targets or something? any conventional wisdom here?

Oleandervine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Brony Gaymer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zE9ygQoM,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-18T16:27:17.253+0000)

When does lifesteal usually warrant GW ? when you just negate a lot of healing and call that value? When it makes the lifestealer have to play differently or choose different targets or something? any conventional wisdom here?

Have you actually played the game? That's a good start to answering your questions. If you're playing against someone who's healing through all of the damage being dealt to them, like Vladimir or an Olaf with Ravenous Hydra and Death's Dance, then that warrants you needing to purchase Grievous Wounds. Use logic, and you should be able to adapt.

Done251 votes

Karma can, and should, use item 3098 item 3158 item 3174 item 3504 item 3089 item 3285

Velkoz and Zyra aren't real supports so they just go with the bog standard AP mage items.

Oleandervine1 votes

{quoted}

Karma can, and should, use item 3312 item 3158 item 3174 item 3504 item 3089 item 3285

Velkoz and Zyra aren't real supports so they just go with the bog standard AP mage items.

It's incredibly impractical to build Deathcap on a support unless you're REALLY fed. The item costs too much overall and your budget doesn't allow you to efficiently purchase the pieces of it nor afford the combine cost.

Done251 votes

{quoted}

It's incredibly impractical to build Deathcap on a support unless you're REALLY fed. The item costs too much overall and your budget doesn't allow you to efficiently purchase the pieces of it nor afford the combine cost.

That's why you leave it until after you get your core items.

Deliberate Inter1 votes

THen what is a real support?

Done251 votes

[{quoted}](name=Brony Gaymer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zE9ygQoM,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2019-02-18T15:11:03.761+0000)

THen what is a real support?

Depends on what you mean by support.

If you mean, "I'm "Support" Brand/Zyra/Vel'koz and I'm going to gamble heavily on going 3/0/3 in lane or risk begin irrelevant" then go have fun.

But if you want someone who can actually provide a utility back bone for your team? Lux, Sona, Janna, Karma, Soraka, etc.

Champions who can look at your 6/0/6 Yi and say: "I can make him even better. Faster, stronger, healthier."

The reason enchanters can get by on having a lower budget is that they scale with their team, rather than against the enemy. Darius just got a Spirit Visage? Soraka's healing just got better on him. Jinx bought her Hurricane? Janna's +60 AD from her E just got that much stronger. Garen has Deadman's? Let's make him even faster with Ziliean's speed boost.

The only reason the likes of Zyra and Brand can do well in bot is because Riot screwed up. They increased their base damages to help them deal with Assassin in mid, but it failed and they just ended up down in bot lane instead. But don't be fooled. Zyra is a terror during the first 15 min of the game, but then she hits a wall. If she doesn't start picking up items to stay relevant things get ugly for her. Which is why she falls off like a rock while Sona starts taking off like a rocket.

Deliberate Inter1 votes

Woah i'm new here, can you dumb it down for me? What is a real support vs some ambiguious other support?

Done251 votes

[{quoted}](name=Brony Gaymer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zE9ygQoM,comment-id=0002000100000000,timestamp=2019-02-18T16:28:23.413+0000)

Woah i'm new here, can you dumb it down for me? What is a real support vs some ambiguious other support?

Wardens and Enchanters are the actual true blue Supports of the game, but then you have mages who go bot and try to turn it into a kill lane.

Now, these mages can do well...if they get fed. A 0/3 Janna can still be relevant by providing knock ups, peel, and a slow. However, a 0/3 Zyra will find it much more difficult to provide anything of actual value to her team.

Hochelaga1 votes

{quoted}

Karma can, and should, use item 3312 item 3158 item 3174 item 3504 item 3089 item 3285

Velkoz and Zyra aren't real supports so they just go with the bog standard AP mage items.

Frost queen claim is now gone for a while. You're proposing a build with 60% CDR. That's overkill. You don't have any health or defensive option for her defense.

Done251 votes

{quoted}

Frost queen claim is now gone for a while. You're proposing a build with 60% CDR. That's overkill. You don't have any health or defensive option for her defense.

Sorry, I meant item 3098. I had just woken up and did that post on my phone.

First up, 20% of that CDR will probably never actualyl get bought because all games end by 25~30 min these days. That's just a "It's 50 min in and both teams are too shit to end this." buy.

Second of all, what Enchanter doesn't take Transcendence?

Thirdly, why would she need to buy health when she can shield herself against poke? Unholy Grail offers MR as well. You shouldn't even be getting hit with the main brunt of the fight in the back line unless your team fucked up horribly anyways. Might as well complain that your ADC didn't buy Thornmail instead of a second crit item.

Hochelaga1 votes

{quoted}

Sorry, I meant item 3098. I had just woken up and did that post on my phone.

First up, 20% of that CDR will probably never actualyl get bought because all games end by 25~30 min these days. That's just a "It's 50 min in and both teams are too shit to end this." buy.

Second of all, what Enchanter doesn't take Transcendence?

Thirdly, why would she need to buy health when she can shield herself against poke? Unholy Grail offers MR as well. You shouldn't even be getting hit with the main brunt of the fight in the back line unless your team fucked up horribly anyways. Might as well complain that your ADC didn't buy Thornmail instead of a second crit item.

That's not what I meant,

Rabadon and Luden's echo is probably never going to happen because you won't have enough income for the game. You should buy cheap and quick items that will allow that allows you to support your team. Athene and Ardent censer are good choices.

Shurelia, redemption and even Morellonomicon all offers good effect for your team

As a support you don't try to do dmg.

Done251 votes

{quoted}

That's not what I meant,

Rabadon and Luden's echo is probably never going to happen because you won't have enough income for the game. You should buy cheap and quick items that will allow that allows you to support your team. Athene and Ardent censer are good choices.

Shurelia, redemption and even Morellonomicon all offers good effect for your team

As a support you don't try to do dmg.

If you're not trying to do at least some of the damage then why are you playing Karma? It's not like her shield doesn't scale heavily off of AP as well. Additionally, Morello's costs 3000 gold. You're not exactly backing up your own argument about sticking to cheap items only by suggesting it.

item 3098 - 850 item 3158 - 900 item 3174 - 2100 item 3504 - 2300 item 3089 - 3600

Total: 9750

Build doesn't even cost over 10k. Rabadon's passive easily gives 120 AP. You're basically paying the 1100 gold upgrade cost for 120 AP. That's a steal.

Hochelaga1 votes

{quoted}

If you're not trying to do at least some of the damage then why are you playing Karma? It's not like her shield doesn't scale heavily off of AP as well. Additionally, Morello's costs 3000 gold. You're not exactly backing up your own argument about sticking to cheap items only by suggesting it.

item 3098 - 850 item 3158 - 900 item 3174 - 2100 item 3504 - 2300 item 3089 - 3600

Total: 9750

Build doesn't even cost over 10k. Rabadon's passive easily gives 120 AP. You're basically paying the 1100 gold upgrade cost for 120 AP. That's a steal.

You'll want to upgrade that support item because of the extra ward and also of the 200 health. It's an extra 950 gold. I know that I buy on average 10 pink wards on a game. That's 750 gold. Rabadon is 600 gold more expansive than Morello and 500 for Liandrys Why did you remove Luden's echo? As for now, I have an extra 2300 gold on your bill.

most games last around 30 minutes. Supports on my division make around 10k if you are on the winning side. You build without the suppor item upgrade and wards already cost that much.

Morellonomicon is 3 times easier to build than Rabadon. You can slowly buy it when you back in town since the required mats for morello are cheap compared to rabadon and luden.

If you don't want morello, you can change your mind for hunting's guise as they have the same required mats.

Karma does enough dmg with Athene and ardent censer. There's no need to go beyond that. Your extra gold should be spent on effects that can help your team.

Morello for grievous wound and sustain and even dmg Shurelia for everything Redemption because it goes well with athene.

Done251 votes

{quoted}

You'll want to upgrade that support item because of the extra ward and also of the 200 health. It's an extra 950 gold.

That's your own fault for paying 950 gold for 200 HP. You're basically just burning money.

I know that I buy on average 10 pink wards on a game. That's 750 gold.

That's way too many pink wards. You should need 1 for lane, and then maybe 2~3 over the course of the game for objective control.

Rabadon is 600 gold more expansive than Morello and 500 for Liandrys Why did you remove Luden's echo?

Because it's a luxury buy outside of the core build of Unholy Grail+Ardent.

As for now, I have an extra 2300 gold on your bill.

most games last around 30 minutes. Supports on my division make around 10k if you are on the winning side. You build without the suppor item upgrade and wards already cost that much.

Build is within 10k plus a little extra leeway for wards.

Morellonomicon is 3 times easier to build than Rabadon. You can slowly buy it when you back in town since the required mats for morello are cheap compared to rabadon and luden.

Not really? Oblivion Orb is 1600 and Blasting Wand is 850. Averaged out they're 1225 per component. NLR is 1250.

If you don't want morello, you can change your mind for hunting's guise as they have the same required mats.

Why would a Karma ever want Liandry's Torment? She can barely use it outside of her Q.

Karma does enough dmg with Athene and ardent censer. There's no need to go beyond that. Your extra gold should be spent on effects that can help your team.

AP does more than damage dude. Her shield has a base of 170 with a 50% AP ratio. 400 AP more than doubles the power of her shield.

Morello for grievous wound and sustain and even dmg

Which she can barely proc or keep up with just her Q alone.

Shurelia for everything

Tbh there's no reason you couldn't just as easily get Shurelia's after Deathcap. I just like how well Echo meshes with her Q poke. It's really up to you what luxury item you get.

Redemption because it goes well with athene.

Did you mean Ardent? Because Redemption has no real special synergy with Unholy Grail beyond the 30 AP gain from Grail's passive.

Hochelaga2 votes

{quoted}

That's your own fault for paying 950 gold for 200 HP. You're basically just burning money.

That's way too many pink wards. You should need 1 for lane, and then maybe 2~3 over the course of the game for objective control.

Because it's a luxury buy outside of the core build of Unholy Grail+Ardent.

Build is within 10k plus a little extra leeway for wards.

Not really? Oblivion Orb is 1600 and Blasting Wand is 850. Averaged out they're 1225 per component. NLR is 1250.

Why would a Karma ever want Liandry's Torment? She can barely use it outside of her Q.

AP does more than damage dude. Her shield has a base of 170 with a 50% AP ratio. 400 AP more than doubles the power of her shield.

Which she can barely proc or keep up with just her Q alone.

Tbh there's no reason you couldn't just as easily get Shurelia's after Deathcap. I just like how well Echo meshes with her Q poke. It's really up to you what luxury item you get.

Did you mean Ardent? Because Redemption has no real special synergy with Unholy Grail beyond the 30 AP gain from Grail's passive.

I'm not here to argue forever. I'm just giving my opinion which you don't seem to accept. You talk like a solo mid lane player Karma and there's absolutely nothing you are telling me that looks like you play support Karma. How can you say that 10 pink ward is too much. How can you say that the support upgrade is only giving 200 HP while forgetting about the extra ward you can carry.

Redemption works well with athene because of the AP, and because of the 10% increased healing effect for her shield and heal. On top of that you can heal by over 600 a target from afar if your athene is charged Oblivion is easy to build because of the required items. You can slowly buy them instead of waiting to have 1250 gold for a large rod. Amp tome is 435, ruby crystal is 400 and the recipe is 765; all lower than a needlessly large rod that cost 1250.

Damage is not the only good thing you can do with Karma. You're forgetting that items that upgrade from the forbidden idol gives extra shield and heal % which you don't seem to take in consideration

Craktite2 votes

{quoted}

Frost queen claim is now gone for a while. You're proposing a build with 60% CDR. That's overkill. You don't have any health or defensive option for her defense.

You can take the rune with 10% cdr (+2 ap each % CDR that exced 40%), you will gain 60 ap (must have for me with Karma)

Hochelaga1 votes

{quoted}

You can take the rune with 10% cdr (+2 ap each % CDR that exced 40%), you will gain 60 ap (must have for me with Karma)

I know, but on what cases are you going to take Rabadon and luden's echo? That's over 6k worth of farm. You can barely farm as a support and you spent about 500 gold on wards

Illabethe1 votes

The question is: Do you want a 50% meta or do you want a build that probably gives better results but isn't experimented with enough to get substantial results statistically?

The meta picks were generally decided upon before mobility went crazy, and attack speed/true damage really became a strong part of the game.

Meta is what other people will tell you.

I will tell you to be versatile and choose based on your game.

Zyra does not have a "Right" build. Her plants/skills lend well to Liandra's/Rylai's, so a lot of players choose this meta. However, I generally play to bolster a champion's weaknesses, not marginally increase their strengths. Zyra's weakness, as with many mages, is her mobility and squishiness. In order to build her meta and still get around, you have to build Mobis.

However...... it's possible to create an extremely strong Zyra who is also mobile without Mobis, and sometimes even without shoes.

item 3311 item 2065 item 3100 item 3907 item 3905 item 3135 for example, will get you to about 400 AP, 490+ move speed, and will be enough damage to eliminate anyone who does not have substantial tankiness.

And, as long as your team has some tanky champion on it, it does enough damage you can just sit back and nuke whoever your teammate is fighting.

A build like this will die FAR LESS than the meta, but it gives up some of the fringe damage you get from suiciding.

Karma's strongest builds right now are very similar to what I said for Zyra. Karma can no longer really use tank builds to mitigate bruisers/heavy damage champions. So, the best defense again is to be faster than them. If all their skill shots miss, and you have a barrier to mitigate some nonskill shots, she becomes formidable. If you build her meta, she will reflect what you build, and you will be a 46% win rate.

You can build her Redemption, but just item 3504 item 3174 is suitable enough.

Vel Koz: stick with mage meta items.

Deliberate Inter1 votes

I want to identify the ideal (Not the agreed upon meta) , understand why and the method to leverage it + be able to perform irregardless of whether that seems to be the meta or not. I also don't want to have to use a crutch to win now, I don't playing for improvement and winning more games in the long run if that means learning how to play without padding. I think in league, that you can react to threats by spending in game money for safety or using player inputs for safety, I don't have the knowledge or experiance to tell which SHOULD be better right now obut if I was a super computer or a world elite pro, what should I be building and how should I be playing?

Support Position1 votes

Karma item 3098 item 1001 (Any boots that fit the game.) item 3174 (SO broken on Karama my god.) item 3504 item 3116 item 3151 (Bye bye frostfang :P) item 3089

Velkoz item 3098 item 1001 (any are good. Situations.) item 3151 item 3116 item 3089 item 3157 item 3102 (obviously not in this order.)

Zyra Just... Dont play it... shes pure garbage.... Worthless support ;-;

Deliberate Inter1 votes

why is athenes good on karma but not vk or zyra?

Support Position1 votes

item 3174 you need a target ability on a champion to heal them. Like for instance Karma E (Her Shield) Vel and Zyra both dont have that ability.

Deliberate Inter1 votes

but what about their ults?

Support Position1 votes

Nothing friend :P

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