@Riot, lets talk Spellthief and Lulu? Please? She's purple!

Derp Princess·8/12/2015, 9:04:19 PM·2 votes·1,175 views

So before I begin the thread, I'd like to say my favorite character/champion in the game is Lulu. Lulu's core strength comes from poking and harassing her enemies, as well as having decent engaging tools, and god like disengage bested by someone like Janna; which is great, that's fine and dandy. I spent like 20 minutes typing this thread so excuse any quirky grammar errors, I wanted to get my point across and ask for possible changes... not to write a novel. I have played over 500 games with her in the whole year that I've played league -- I don't claim to be a master at this game, but I know that one of my favorite champions is in a very bad spotfor the role she was designed to be for when she is outclassed by those who weren't even meant to be supports in the first place. So here we go:

tl;dr -> Lulu weak, buff... Spellthief weak, buff.

-------------------- Lulu Suggestions --------------------

Lulu's downsides reflect her strength ... such as her pathetic base 325 movespeed (she's as slow as Nautilus!!) and she is insanely squishy to the point she is basically forced to run armor quints to even compete against enemies.

First I'd like to talk about potential bugs or oversights which do need addressing big time to benefit all Lulu players: While she does have a standard attack range of 550, it seems odd when I go to attack the enemy Thresh (450 range) he's able attack me despite me just being in range to even pull off the attack-- something that shouldn't be happening as he should have to walk forward a hundred units before he should be able to do that right? Her hitbox is also a tad messed up I would say, I find myself getting hooked even when I shouldn't be visually (please fix). So obviously at this point I'm focusing on support Lulu instead of lane Lulu so while these changes should definitely be made, which I am about to list, feel free to change numbers to reflect what's best for support Lulu (even for support Lulu who wants to build AP items (support or not AP Items) instead of the same boring Locket/Aegis and Mikeal's build). Nevermind the fact that non support tanks are meta right now are a big thing because they out-scale real supports and are more impactful at all stages of the game (wasn't this the reason top Lulu was nerfed? ... cause her slow might as well have been a root? Meanwhile we have nautilus and shen kinda just doing their own thing with their taunts and insane CC and self shields ... while having no gold to work with ... right?) Her tower defense is also really really poor, and this is somewhat of a good thing to balance her out I suppose...

Q - Magic Damage: 80 / 125 / 170 / 215 / 260 (+ 50% AP) - RANGE: 925 COST: 60 / 65 / 70 / 75 / 80 mana COOLDOWN: 7 ... Tank units such as Thresh and Tahm Kench have just about equally damaging abilities so I'll be using them as comparison -- yes I realize Thresh doesn't normally build AP, this is hypothetical.

Tahm Kench: COST: 50 mana COOLDOWN: 6 Thresh: COST: 80 mana COOLDOWN: 20 / 18 / 16 / 14 / 12

From a standpoint as a Lulu main I would say being hit by a glitterlance can be really be shrugged off, the slow is abysmal on it compared to say where as a tongue lash or thresh hook is almost a guaranteed death. Also the Mana cost should be toned down a tad (it's very easy to go oom with just using 2-3 spell rotations). Their abilities also have secondary effects where as Lulu's is like..... yeah it's bad.

Yes -- I'm really about compare Lulu Q to Zed Q but hear me out here: If both of Zed's shurikens hit someone they still deal damage, reduced to 60% after hitting the first unit. Lulu's hits once per unit, irregardless of how many it hits. Pair it with her E and Q , hitting someone from weird angles, you hit both and don't feel the satisfaction of even seeing 1% extra damage. Sure, she has decent wave clear even as a support, and she ideally should be compared to other supports and not zed but hey I'm just saying :P. Alright so, I think if it is a minion they take 100% damage irregardless from one bolt only, but if they are a champion they take 100% damage from the first bolt and 20-30% damage from the second bolt. That's an extra 52 - 78 damage per hit at level 9+ for spending 80 + 60 / 70 / 80 / 90 / 100 mana ... up to an extra 180 mana for (with almost no AP) 52-78 damage, which is laughable but every bit helps.

W - Is fine but would be great if at rank 5 when you whimsy someone you get the speed boost as well. Polymorphing 2 enemies at once (or more) would be OP which I don't want. However, speeding up yourself and say your adc early is really good, or late game yourself and your initators on top of your ult! Kinda like how karma does (but not as powerful for yourself perhaps?)

E - Lulu shield needs a secondary effect bad... like I realize you can keep the shield on someone for long periods of time and if you build full AP the shield is massive, as well as the fact Pix damage basically giving them 105 or so AD late... but lets talk regular support Lulu here... Using it to damage an enemy (E cast on enemy) should apply debuffs to them instead of just raw damage... such as Reduced AD (10% max ad?), reduced Movespeed (by 15 flat at all stages so it is a big deal before you get boots but after you get boots it's no biggie), and maybe even a cut in their defenses since I feel Lulu should be able to poke down tanks even through their massive sustain with Relic Shield (read below for spellthief suggestion!)

R - Fine as is.

Other than her abilities, I think she should get more attack speed per level as her passive encourages her to build attack speed, but as a support she simply can't. (Maxing close to 1.00 base AS at level 18 ? ) Her base movespeed definitely needs to not be 325.. she is tiny, tiny means fast usually so give her 335 ms like every other support! Also it would be really good to buff her base armor (same scaling) so she isn't forced to run armor quints (as AP quints would be the ideal thing (or hybrid pen) on her if she weren't so squishy). Her Magic resist is fine as is, same with HP. She should still be "squishy" but not "get hooked once, instantly die" squishy.

-------------------- SpellThief Suggestion
--------------------

SpellThief is good for generating gold early, and if you were to proc its passive every single time it came up you'd have more gold than talisman -- but in terms of realism that isn't happening. Spellthief edge itself is niche in the sense that you have absolutely no reason to upgrade it once you buy it... this is bad design.

In the Early stages of the game an item called Arcane Helix was thought of: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Arcane_Helix .

The passive of Arcane Helix was "Unique: Spending Mana heals you for 30% of the Mana spent." This would be an amazing edition to Frost Queen's Claim (or even Frost Fang and Frost Queen's) giving poke supports a real reason to buy it. Being healed for 30% of the Mana you used is not much for any laner, but for a support who are already squishy it would be a wonderful edition to the game.

If added 30% to Frost Fang it could be upgraded to 50% of mana cost even for Frost Queen's Claim. Spellvamp outclasses this big time anyway and it could have a timer for like 4 spells every x seconds (less than 10 seconds though). Furthermore, continuous spells and AOE wouldn't benefit from it. This would also prevent laners, especially someone like Karthus, and Annie (as a support), taking advantage of it. Yes, I realize Talisman and Righteous Glory combo would still be better on Annie Support, I'm just saying.

The reasons behind why this change would be great is both relic shield and coin line have ways to sustain yourself, spellthiefs doesn't... and it really should to be fair. As far as someone like Soraka using this suggested item, it could always be changed so that it only heals you if you use an ability which does damage and gating it by a cooldown system. Obviously not something you want on Ryze even as an off build thing. As far as Sona goes, it's debatable on how to handle that if it were to end up being too strong, Sona doesn't need to be nerfed or buffed (except maybe more base HP)?

Just suggestions, thoughts? I'm not saying make Lulu or spellthief god tier / op or anything... just do something so there is a reason to pick her and not feel like you're just someone whose only job is to put a silly shield on someone late game.

14 Comments

Marthian8/12/2015, 9:19:39 PM1 votes

Just throwing this out, Spellthief's issues you ponit out aren't Lulu-exclusive issues. No one generally upgrades to frost queen's claim.

I would have just made a separate thread for each topic: Lulu and Spellthief.

Jkkool8/12/2015, 9:56:49 PM1 votes

A simplistic response from my view is this.

TL;DR: Passive sucks, Q hurt with both glitters on enemy, W Nunu Bloodboil for this: and fix bug on enemy cast, E: Weak sheild on supp lulu give ally a buff but not a self buff (to stop ap lulu from gaining form it): enemy cast is weak, And R is fine.

Passive: I feel like it kinda sucks imho due to the fact that minions can stop it. Maybe make it so it can travel through minions but if it does so it does like 30% damage (I mean shit even if it did 1 damage per tick thats like I think 2 more damage on your autos big whoop but I still think it would be nice)

Q: Zed is a prime example of double hitting someone. I mean I understand he is an Assassain but Why can't lulu get some Q love with a lil extra damage on if it hits the same champ. Hell even make it to where you have to e them first to make it count for 2 hits but the second would be weaker ofc.

W: ok lets break it down.

   On ally cast: Ok so nunu got a quality of life change where he can Bloodboil and it will do it to an ally. So why not have the same for lulu? Like you stated where only at rank 5 I think that is just fine personally. Kinda makes me think lulu could have the Syndra mechanic where her abilitys get a weird cap when they are maxed out.

  On enemy cast: I don't really see a problem here personally. I mean sometimes it bugs and some attacks will still go through mid polly but thats fine in my opinion.

E: Break this down

 On ally cast: When you cast it on an Ally it kinda feels idk lack-luster? I mean it's a good sheild if you build ap which is why I think it is kinda a touchy abillity for balance changes. but I feel like it should give your ally a buff kinda like what the old lulu w did way back in the day on ally's (give ap) Granted it give your ally pix damage but meh as i stated before I think pix is really weak


 On Enemy cast: I really feel like its is almost worthless late game. It does Like no damage on a support lulu and It does what? give vision? ok thats dandy and all but when it comes down to the vision part of it I feel that if you can see them already you kinda don't need the vision. (in a few instances of like vayne or somthing but not the point) Read my Q change for what I think the E on enemy cast could be

R: I think it is in a fine spot I don't think I would really touch the abillity.

Overall I could see her getting a buff personally but you would have to fine tune it to stop ap lulu from getting to much from it. ~Jkkool LeeSin

Jkkool8/12/2015, 11:39:32 PM1 votes

Badump

Derp Princess8/13/2015, 1:05:37 AM1 votes

If anyone has any suggestions on comments on this it would really be helpful ... a purple yordle needs love :( !