Support-Nerf Pattern

Genova Fearbane·Jan 24, 2015·25 votes·2,879 views

It might just be me, but it looks like there's a pattern in Riot nerfing supports...

Soraka starts being picked in top and mid lane - Reworked Annie is picked in mid more than support - Nerf scaling Alister is being picked jungle - Remove jungle cow Sona is being picked mid - Nerf over several patches

It might just be coincidence, but whenever a support starts seeing a significant amount of picks in a different position they get nerfed... And yet Riot says they're supportive of the meta-breaking.

Huehuehuehuehue puns.

58 Comments

Leaf of the lakeJan 25, 201522 votes

Uh, riot nerfed annie's bases and buffed her ratios because she was getting picked as support, not the other way around.

Sona barely sees play outside of support, and mid sona isn't even that good due to no waveclear. They nerfed her because of support sona, which still probably didn't deserve it.

Alistar was picked in jungle many seasons ago, and it was terrifying, even more so than any of the s4 jungle picks. They did not nerf his passive as a result of him going jungle, but out of fear of him doing it again. In fact, after alistar received that buff to his ult, he started seeing play top lane. It was only after that happened that they nerfed his ability to sneak an aa in during his w.

The only one of your examples that is actually valid is raka being reworked.

Nucleophilic atkJan 25, 20154 votes

I would much rather see an Ali jungle than a lee or j4.

coppinslingerJan 25, 20151 votes

I don't know, I heard jungler Alistar's ganks were LEGENDARY back in his heyday.

My favorite is the flash over wraith wall into head-butt that shoves the enemy mid-laner out from under their tower. Follow up pulverize for an easy (and completely unexpected) kill.

Nucleophilic atkJan 25, 20151 votes

I'm not saying he wasn't a good jungler lol, I'm just saying I would rather see him than the constant Lee and J4 jungle in every game.

O o b l e c kJan 26, 20152 votes

LEGENDAIRY*

geddit?

coppinslingerJan 26, 20151 votes

You win the internet for the day

GaleWinUnleashedJan 25, 20152 votes

No you wouldn't. Alistar offers even less counterplay, because all he does is come into lane from behind your turret, clicks headbutt on you, and lets go of his mouse and keyboard while he walks inevitably toward you.

Nucleophilic atkJan 25, 20152 votes

No, I would. I'm sick of seeing the same 2 junglers every match.

GaleWinUnleashedJan 25, 20151 votes

At least I would be playing Zac if I jungled. Or Nautilus. Or Wukong.

pWasHereJan 26, 20151 votes

Then the other side would just play Jarvan or Lee and kick your ass.

GaleWinUnleashedJan 26, 20151 votes

Oh, most definitely =P

NinjaToad99Jan 25, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Leaf of the lake,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yjK6ojwc,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-01-25T00:46:11.830+0000)

Uh, riot nerfed annie's bases and buffed her ratios because she was getting picked as support, not the other way around.

Pretty sure that was a typo.

GetBoomedOnJan 25, 201515 votes

Annie is only secondary support. She belongs in mid with her CC and mage-like tendancy.

Rinky DinkyJan 25, 20159 votes

Hate to break it to you but Annie is not a supp.

She is a midlaner who is taken botlane in competitive play. EX: Zyra, Veigar, Morgana

This is because they can do alot of damage with limited items.

They are better taken mid in solo queue imo.

The best time to take supp's such as these botlane is if you have an AD midlaner. Your adc also needs to synergize with said supp.

So the notion that Annie was nerfed because she was played mid is wrong. She was nerfed because her scaling were broken. They are still stupidly high. Her scalings are balanced by her low mobility and low range.

A better example would have been Lulu :P

Leaf of the lakeJan 25, 20152 votes

They are better taken mid in solo queue imo.

Eh, if you have to support in soloqueue, taking a carry support is often the way to go. Even if your ADC sucks, you can still carry the team by securing kills for yourself and becoming a second ap carry.

Major SparklesJan 25, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Hate to break it to you but Annie is not a supp.

She is a midlaner who is taken botlane in competitive play. EX: Zyra, Veigar

Just like Morgana

manbearswineJan 25, 20157 votes

[{quoted}](name=Genova Fearbane,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yjK6ojwc,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-01-24T23:58:05.044+0000)

It might just be me, but it looks like there's a pattern in Riot nerfing supports...

Soraka starts being picked in top and mid lane - Reworked

SHE WAS CANCER,ffs,can we get serious for a moment,if fizz would get reworked into a support I'm sure everyone(except fizz mains,but screw them anyway) would be thrilled.

Annie is picked in mid more than support - Nerf scaling

Did that really happen,did I miss something?

Alister is being picked jungle - Remove jungle cow

Well riot claims him to have been obnoxious,hearing some tales about it,I tend to think they are right.

Sona is being picked mid - Nerf over several patches

Did I miss something again? sona was played mid competitively? banned in solo q? something?

It might just be coincidence, but whenever a support starts seeing a significant amount of picks in a different position they get nerfed...

Well lulu is more of a top laner/mid laner than she is a support...so...

JØJłJan 25, 20151 votes

Yeah, they're only nerfing her scaling on her molten sheild I believe..... but she's going to be sharing it with tibbers when he's summoned. (It's on PBE atm)

manbearswineJan 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, they're only nerfing her scaling on her molten sheild I believe..... but she's going to be sharing it with tibbers when he's summoned. (It's on PBE atm)

Annie

Molten Shield (E) armor and magic resist bonus decreased to 10/20/30/40/50 from 20/30/40/50/60 Summon: Tibbers (R) now includes "If Annie casts molten shield while Tibbers is active he will received the shield and a short decaying speed boost".

That is NOT a scaling nerf,that's a base value nerf,which hits support annie as hard(even harder?) as mid annie.

JØJłJan 25, 20151 votes

whoops my bad.

AbyssphereJan 25, 20156 votes

Sona mid isn't a thing and never will be. She has worse waveclear than every single mid laner and can't 100-0. She was nerfed for her supposed supporting problems.

MrSlowDieJan 25, 20155 votes

Taric

It Hertz When IPJan 25, 20155 votes

Waiting for Morgana to get a nerf now that I took her as my Support.

BeatzBoyFTWJan 25, 20155 votes

Umm Rito, you forgot to nerf Thresh . Idiots are still playing him as an ADC, or should I say, an Urgot 2.0?

PikmintsJan 25, 20156 votes

Wait, are you being serious when you're saying he's not been nerfed?

I remember when he was still classified as a tank, his W could shield his entire team, souls lasted 14 seconds instead of 8, his hitbox was slightly smaller than his visual, his ult armed faster and dealt damage multiple times to the same champ. Let alone the flash-death sentence removal which is a mechanic other champions are allowed to have as stated by Riot.

People will only stop saying he needs nerfs once he no longer can apply cc.

BeatzBoyFTWJan 25, 20151 votes

Those aren't the significance of an ADC Thresh. Thresh was convinced by many dumbheads as an ADC just because of the bonus damage from his E passive. This is where it should be either nerfed, or removed.

VDc0zCqe0wJan 25, 20154 votes

still permapicked in any competition

Thresh is the ultimate cancer incarnated

he doesn't need a nerf, he needs a rework

Kitten of EvilJan 25, 20154 votes

They're nerfed because they bring a lot of utility and a decent amount of damage to those other roles (their support utility plus the fact that you basically have to build AP anyway means they're decent midlaners). I'm not sure what the solution is, but if Riot could find a way to separate support strengths from mid/jungle/toplane strengths, they wouldn't spend so much time nerfing support champs.

MarenjiiJan 25, 20154 votes

When supports make their team more powerful it is ok because they themselves aren't nuking people. But when you have Soraka top lane rushing FH and being untouchable because of how her kit worked, or Lulu invalidating melee tops and mid lane assassins, it becomes obnoxious.

CinderDragon77Jan 25, 20153 votes

{quoted}

When supports make their team more powerful it is ok because they themselves aren't nuking people. But when you have Soraka top lane rushing FH and being untouchable because of how her kit worked, or Lulu invalidating melee tops and mid lane assassins, it becomes obnoxious.

Meanwhile Gnar top and Lissandra mid/top...still waiting for actual compensation for support lulu if they apparently hated her going to another lane but are completely ok with Lissandra doing the same thing and actually doing damage/having an escape that isn't tied to her cc.

MarenjiiJan 25, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Meanwhile Gnar top and Lissandra mid/top...still waiting for actual compensation for support lulu if they apparently hated her going to another lane but are completely ok with Lissandra doing the same thing and actually doing damage/having an escape that isn't tied to her cc.

What?! Lissandra was meant to be a damage dealer anyway, and there are melees that can fight her. Gnar is broken and that is not a secret so he does not count. Also her escape is tied to her most damaging non ultimate ability, and it telegraphs. I mean come on. Many champs in this game have an escape not tied to their CC

CinderDragon77Jan 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

What?! Lissandra was meant to be a damage dealer anyway, and there are melees that can fight her. Gnar is broken and that is not a secret so he does not count. Also her escape is tied to her most damaging non ultimate ability, and it telegraphs. I mean come on. Many champs in this game have an escape not tied to their CC

So the fact that a champ is considered op makes them not count, as far as I know he's not getting more nerfs next patch as of now and they released him AFTER they nerfed lulu for being "cancer" by doing similar things in toplane so you can't just disregard him. Liss has multiple cc, 2 hard cc and one soft cc along with having an escape that doesn't waste any of her cc potential, and/or if liss was meant to be a damage dealer why does she have 3 different cc and a gapcloser that doubles as a nuke without sacrificing much of anything within any of her other abilities?

MarenjiiJan 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

So the fact that a champ is considered op makes them not count, as far as I know he's not getting more nerfs next patch as of now and they released him AFTER they nerfed lulu for being "cancer" by doing similar things in toplane so you can't just disregard him. Liss has multiple cc, 2 hard cc and one soft cc along with having an escape that doesn't waste any of her cc potential, and/or if liss was meant to be a damage dealer why does she have 3 different cc and a gapcloser that doubles as a nuke without sacrificing much of anything within any of her other abilities?

Yes being OP means they do not count. Gnar is an example of what should not be. Why would we consider him when discussing that is and isn't ok? Liss is a short range utility mage. 2 of her abilities are skillshots, one which moves extremely slow, and if she uses it offensively, she has no escape. If she uses E to gap close, dodge it, and go on the offensive she has no escape. She is also inhibited by mana cost early unless she is only using abilities every 18 seconds. Dodge her Q, and and run at her.

CinderDragon77Jan 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yes being OP means they do not count. Gnar is an example of what should not be. Why would we consider him when discussing that is and isn't ok? Liss is a short range utility mage. 2 of her abilities are skillshots, one which moves extremely slow, and if she uses it offensively, she has no escape. If she uses E to gap close, dodge it, and go on the offensive she has no escape. She is also inhibited by mana cost early unless she is only using abilities every 18 seconds. Dodge her Q, and and run at her.

Now liss is a short-range utility mage, I thought she was a damage dealer, make up you mind.

Every mana user is inhibited by mana costs early on, lulu was/is too. They stop becoming skillshots when you're rooted/point-click stunned by her other abilities

What you're saying about liss' mobility applies to everyone else that has a mobility skill, only everyone else doesn't get good damage and cc to go along with it.

The now they don't have an escape argument applies to everyone with a gapcloser except they don't get multiple cc to keep you from getting anywhere near them if they mess up their engage, cc which can't be missed if used with any competence(use w/r and then the rest of the kit is effectively no longer skillshot-based). If she misses q she just snares or worst case ults you(or herself in the case of a dive) and walks away or turns on you b/c that q will be back up in 2-3s so she'll probably win the 1v1 due to you not being able to ever actually get into melee range of her.

Lulu had a pseudo-stun that still allowed movement or an ms boost on a lengthy cd, a skillshot slow that ate up her mana with a 7s cd, a shield or damage spell, and a potential knockup with a slow aura attached that did no damage but gave bonus health and a passive that allowed her to do a little extra damage with autos that could be blocked by minions.

Liss gets a skillshot slow that does a similar thing that only has a 3s cd at max rank with 0cdr, an aoe snare that is guaranteed to hit anyone that tries to go into melee range of you, dash/blink type escape that also doubles as a damage spell in case you're all-inning someone, and a point-click stun nuke/zhonyas that leaves behind a field that slows everyone around it and damages them too.

So yeah liss is a more offensive-oriented version of lulu that gets equal or greater amounts of cc potential, much more damage and much higher scalings, along with a free mana passive that lets her get the edge against melees early game without going oom, but no lulu was a problem and liss definitely isn't. /sarcasm

balbraakselJan 25, 20151 votes

I really hate the nerfs Lulu received, she's an awesome champion with a really well designed kit. I also think she should be compensated, her win rate as support was already less than 50% before the nerfs. Riot said they tried to not hurt Lulu so much but her mana costs are insane and her vision on an enemy with her Help, Pix! was shortened which was perfect for chasing and countering stealth champions.

VDc0zCqe0wJan 25, 20154 votes

except Thresh

Thresh is not nerfable according to riot

Genova FearbaneJan 25, 20154 votes

{quoted}

except Thresh

Thresh is not nerfable according to riot

Thresh is one of the many champions who is difficult to master, so Riot attempts to make them balanced for the players who don't know how to use him well, while making them overpowered for the ones who do.

VDc0zCqe0wJan 25, 20153 votes

wich is completely stupid to me because a guy can just grind 500 games with Thresh and then proceed to collect free elo but whatever

btw that was hyperbole, Thresh has been in fact nerfed

problem is that lovetaps for 2 years aren't exactly useful

Renegade Angel95Jan 25, 20152 votes

Just like when they made the box walls do no damage to anyone after the first one breaks. Or the lantern only shield one person. Man those not nerfs are disgusting.

championmaggotJan 25, 20153 votes

riots addicted to nerfs they dont know any other way.

OleandervineJan 25, 20153 votes

They keep c**kslapping supports because they interfere with the Lee Sin/Zed/Lucian #LCSBIGPLAYS with their utility and ability to save people. Can't be having Lee Sin turned into a muffin or headbutted into oblivion.

JustacoJan 25, 20152 votes

To be fair Sona mid should probably never be allowed to be viable. I mean, just look at her kit.

Q- Hits 2 targets
W- Heals 2 targets
E- Speeds up herself.
R- Hits up to 5 targets, hitting 2 somewhat reliably.
All of her auras can affect 5 allies, in a duo lane 2 reliably.
Passive- Single target

Playing Sona in a solo lane compared to a duo lane is using roughly half of her kit. If she is winning with half of her kit's potential then something is probably wrong there.

I'm sure you could make a similar analysis for some of the other supports.

Pika310Jan 28, 20153 votes

The difference with Sona is, she's never been viable in mid lane. Idk why the OP even included her with the rest of those champs. I don't even know where the propaganda of mid-Sona even began, such a concept only exists amongst the darkest corners of League where bronze 5 players have 0 LP.

Sona wasn't nerfed for the same reasons as any other supports, or for any logical reasons in general. Riot just blatantly hates her existence.

Leblancs BoobJan 25, 20152 votes

Is it surprising? Having laned against solo lane Lulu, Soraka, Alistar, Zilean, etc at the height of their power would have been enough to make you wanna rip your own hair out.