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Why does the jungle hurt so much!?

lightdragoon88··59 votes·6,765 views

So according to Riot on the Patch notes:

> Simply put, the jungle's a tad easier and gives more gold, but nets less overall experience unless you've got a jungle item to make up the difference.

And judging by the stats, the camps do have their armor, health, and sometimes their damage reduced...so why is it that instead of the jungle feeling like this:

http://orig11.deviantart.net/9e80/f/2011/345/2/0/lucy_punch_by_zombiegirl01-d4isxbn.gif

Going through the jungle feels like this?: http://i.imgur.com/Klf5VHR.gif

Is it that instead of decreasing the stats, they increased it? Was the passive health regen when fighting the camps really make that much of a difference? Or is it because we just don't have the gold to buy anything anymore because gold income is so much less and items cost so much more?

What is the reason? What can we do? What can Riot do? Cause after just 1 week of this...I just don't enjoy the jungle anymore.

143 Comments

Ralanr31 votes

The change in masteries may have had some effect.

Edit: not that I dislike the new Masteries.

junglerboy162 votes

They just need to give more jungle friendly options in the masteries imo, or coughtakeahintRitocough finally overhaul runes so that junglers have options to help them survive in lieu of the essential jungle masteries like bladed armor or the flat regen at the base of the old mastery tree.

Ralanr2 votes

People will Riot if they rework the runes considering how much time and IP they've invested.

Dehitay22 votes

I don't think I've seen anybody point out the main problem yet. It's true that jungle monsters themselves got nerfed. But the starting jungle items also got nerfed to possibly a more extreme degree. Natural sustain junglers are going to be having an easier time. But other junglers now do less damage with less sustain than the old hunter's machete and that's why jungling seems so much more painful now. New masteries also have an effect, but it's primarily the weaker jungle starting items. My own personal advice is to ignore the recommended items advice of refillable potion and start with 3 health pots instead. It will give you an extra 450 health for your first clear instead of just 200 extra health.

lightdragoon8810 votes

Even with that a lot of junglers have to recall to heal and buy more potions after 2-3 camps.

Ultraboomer2 votes

not strictly on subject but why are you buying potions instead of getting a refillable potion?

lightdragoon886 votes

Cause potions heal a lot more than the refillable one and that can make a big difference on the first few clears.

Ultraboomer1 votes

while this makes sense it seems like it'd still be better for your first clears if you bought the refillable potion because you can get to tier 2 jungle and hunter's potion that much faster compared to buying more regular health pots.

BluePolarizer4 votes

no you cant. wtf? do you even jungle?

Dehitay10 votes

{quoted}

not strictly on subject but why are you buying potions instead of getting a refillable potion?

Your first clear is ridiculously important as a jungler. The refillable potion will give you an extra 200 health. The 3 health pots for the same price give you 450 health. That can mean a lot more camps, which can mean the difference between a tier 2 jungle item or the same hell as your first run all over again.

Ralanr6 votes

Because I get biscuits instead.

Joe Dredd3 votes

ur just bad lol jungling is so easy now wtf

lightdragoon8823 votes

Say that to other people then. in my last 10 games on the Rift, at least 7 of them had one or both of the junglers die to camps in the first 5 minutes.

Ralanr2 votes

It's really common to see in my games. Though I did try jungling, twice. First time, I went Panth and fell very behind. Second time I went Sion. I did very well the second time, maybe because I tried a different clear.

Krigjer10 votes

Say that to other people then. in my last 10 games on the Rift, at least 7 of them had one or both of the junglers die to camps in the first 5 minutes.

My boyfriend mains jungle and has played a lot of Vi/Tryn/Yas and similar in the jungle. He died to red his first game of the patch.

maikokk2 votes

everyone dies to red or has to B early the first try. most people realize what they did wrong, feel dumb... fix it... and realize jungling is easier than its been for 3 seasons.

its only the slow learners that post in forums about the jungle is killing them.

MrWasjig1 votes

I've not played in Jungle in this preseason yet, but before Xin could wreck the jungle on a first clear. 1 point into Battle Cry off the bat, 2 pots. You're set all the way. Smiting Red for the HP wasn't needed but helped.

If he's capable of dying on the first clear now, then something has clearly changed for the worse.

maikokk1 votes

while most people are just learning how to arrange their starting setup. if you die to monsters with xin using any setup you are just bad (unless it was just that you thought the other starting item was better somehow). all he has to do is start and smite krugs. he doesnt even need a good mastery tree. he doesnt even need 3 pots. 1 pot + machete and AS runes do it.

the fact that you suggested smiting red somehow helps xin proves ignorance. you save more health smiting krugs (both last season and this season) because of the dps you remove from the monsters.

MrWasjig2 votes

I don't see how it's ignorant. Smiting red gives you back the HP for a potential gank top (assuming you're on Red side) Or if you're on Blue side, smiting Red gives you the HP for a potential gank botlane. Sure you may not need the HP but the more you have the better chances you have for success in said ganks.

I'm going to state again since you clearly glazed over it, I haven't tried the Jungle this preseason so my points are just speculation along with personal experience from last season.

There's also no need to be snarky with the listing of champions that can't get a first clear. Besides I'm not sure why you'd jungle any of them anyway.

maikokk1 votes

if you are starting from blue side OK. but there is no reason to with xin. from red side, if you smite red, you have less health because you have to choose between krugs and red... and krugs saves more health than red gives back.

i didnt mean to be snarky on the point you referenced... only with the red buff comment.

i realise that you said you havnt tried the jungle. but whoever told you xin can die in the jungle is bad, thats mostly what i was getting at with the rest of it. the red buff comment was to make a point about how you should educate yourself on the jungle better instead of listening to bad players.

as for the list of people you cant make a full clear with. its obvious that you wouldn't want to jungle with any of them anyways. the point here being that several champions that arnt junglers are not on that list... meaning you can jungle with just about anyone and get a full clear if you have your setup correct. it was much easier to list the ones you cant than to list the ones you can.

MrWasjig1 votes

the red buff comment was to make a point about how you should educate yourself on the jungle better instead of listening to bad players.

Okay let me educate you on how I carry out my route as Xin. Regardless of side I always start on whichever camp is closest to bot for a good pull. (So Krugs for Blue side, Gromp for Red).

Let's say for this example I'm on Blue Side, smite Krugs then move to Raptors. Then take Scuttle. By this point Smite is back up (or close enough to being up) and I've gotten some free health from killing scuttle thanks to Battle Cry.

Now I take out Red, smiting it for the finish for some more health (and of course the buff) With the extra health in tow I'll try for an early gank bot, or mid now I'm at level 3 (the lane depending on how pushed they are) because the extra health means I can last longer from potential counter-attack/counter gank and red buff...well it's red buff we know why that's helpful for ganks.

Understand my reasoning for smiting red now? It's for the extra HP for pulling off an early gank. Excuse me Sir, but next time please refrain from assuming things about others.

Specter0273 votes

The above route of Krugs (smite) -> Raptors -> Red (smite) is the healthiest route for all Junglers. Crab shouldn't be included in this route unless you are A) healthy and B) aware of the other junglers start. If you run into a healthier jungler cause he wants crab to you will die or lose crab + 1 camp on your side of river.

The route is not time efficient as you run around red before doubling back to it. This route is also uneven because the map is not truly mirrored. Blue side (bot side) gets a better leash than red side (top side) due to how many people are there to help. Also, after red you can look for a gank, but, red side has a level disadvantage vs. the solo laners, while my Lee Sin can sometimes catch the enemy bot lane while they are still L2 when I'm blue side and L3 with Red Buff.

All that being said, a more difficult jungle = less potential junglers = less diversity. Riots stated goal of last season's rework was to bring in more diversity and increased freedom in route choices. Route choices currently suck and the jungle is even less diverse than it was at worlds, where we saw like 4 power picks.

Also, as a Jungler, I make custom games and just see who I can solo clear with. Other players don't do this. I shouldn't be saddled with basically a 4v5 because "First Time Nidalee" has no idea how to setup Nid Jungle let alone clear Nid jungle based on the interactions in her kit with the monsters because Riot has made it a helluva lot more difficult overnight. Also, Nid is just an example. Other Jungler's i've seen die include Evelynn Rengar Khazix JarvanIV MasterYi . This issue can't be dismissed with a wave of the hand and a statement of "well these aren't actualy junglers."

Junglers should have to work a bit to get better, but there shouldn't be a sandbox requirement for Junglers and Junglers alone.

Ralanr1 votes

That's the route I went when I jungled with Sion. Definitely worked best for me.

Though the other jungler seemed to gank earlier.

Specter0271 votes

You start red/top or blue/bot side? Blue gets a leash from botlane which allows him to power through Jungle a little quicker compared to what is begged off of the top laner. Also you might have been vs. a champ with a faster, more stable clear that could effect the timing. I've never jungled Sion, so I can't even estimate whether he clears quickly or not.

Ralanr1 votes

I got the red botlane. I didn't go blue first due to a Yi taking smite and going top (didn't want to deal with that). The clears weren't fast, but I didn't walk away with low health.

MrWasjig1 votes

The route, while I agree isn't the fastest, I take it for maximum HP and XP gain before ganking. Don't get me wrong I'm not even a secondary jungler (as in it's not even my secondary role) so I can't say it's THE best route but it's worked for me for a long time so it's my go to "pattern" for blue side.

Joe Dredd1 votes

i can damn near full clear the jungle on rengar. they're just bad

yoniame2 votes

how about people who aren'T lvl 30 yet and can't afford fullflat runes?hm?

Joe Dredd1 votes

Sounds like a personal problem.

yoniame1 votes

its the worst(weakest) case scenario. Do you happen to be an asshole on default, or your enemies just keep raping you, that you are so sour?

Joe Dredd1 votes

i don't like complainers. especially about stuff like this

yoniame1 votes

then why the fuck are you at the boards??? lightdragoon88 has a point, made a slightly funny post about it, people tell their opinion about it here, you have no reason to inslut them

Inquizelus1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nice Henz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y6cuit8o,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-11-17T16:25:51.863+0000)

ur just bad lol jungling is so easy now wtf

I LOVE HOW NONE OF THESE PEOPLE WHO ARE UPVOTED TO 10+ ARE PAST SILVER AND AS SOON AS A PLAT POINTS OUT THE OBVIOUS HE GETS DOWNVOTED BELOW THE COMMENT THRESHOLD

Demented Gag10 votes

Saying "ur just bad lol" doesn't really help, regardless of the discussed topic. Bronze or Challenger, chances are you will get downvotes.

Joe Dredd1 votes

Except the thing is, you're literally just bad if you're dying in jungle. Literally.

Knoyle7 votes

I actually noticed that if you aren't a champ that can self sustain or something to that degree they usually die because they bite off more than they can chew or they recall really early. I've noticed the better jungs to be Champs like XinZhao , DrMundo , Tryndamere , and Fiddlesticks . at least in my experiences.

MrWasjig1 votes

Then do you not think that providing some advice on how to better one's play might be a good idea? Rather than just pointing out the fucking obvious.

Joe Dredd1 votes

I don't know what I can tell people other than stuff that should be already obvious.

MrWasjig2 votes

The thing is, some things are obvious to some people but not to others.

As a Diamond level player it's easy for you to say that some things are obvious but those things may not be so obvious for someone in say, Bronze League.

Not everyone plays at the same level (if they did the Ranked system would be obsolete).

You're Diamond, that's great, you've clearly shown you're good enough to reach that rank but don't assume people are as good as you.

Joe Dredd1 votes

There's nothing special to what I do. I don't use some special technique I don't kite camps Hell, the only thing i could consider is the order in which i kill the camps, as in the monsters within a camp, and you can just look up videos on that

C9 Scott Free 2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nice Henz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y6cuit8o,comment-id=00020002000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-18T16:15:38.224+0000)

There's nothing special to what I do. I don't use some special technique I don't kite camps Hell, the only thing i could consider is the order in which i kill the camps, as in the monsters within a camp, and you can just look up videos on that

Even Riot acknowledges the jungle is a problem atm after I sent this thread to Scarizard. The screenshot attatched shows his reaction to me saying that baby hunter pot was a trap item and the jungle is rougher. He disagreed. 6 days later he is agreeing with me and they are making some jungle changes. That should be some food for thought for you on the personal level.

http://imgur.com/rvTMc0Y

Joe Dredd1 votes

lmao people actually buy refillable potion?

C9 Scott Free 1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nice Henz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y6cuit8o,comment-id=0002000200000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-18T17:48:13.027+0000)

lmao people actually buy refillable potion?

If you notice at the bottom I said it as a trap item and he said it wasn't a week ago. Now today he says it is. Basically a rioters told me I was wrong but now says I am right

MrWasjig1 votes

Does't give you any position to be a dick about it. Have some humility.

Joe Dredd1 votes

Some humility? I'm not the one who, instead of just accepting that he sucks at jungling, complains that the jungle is too hard.

MrWasjig2 votes

But you're providing nothing meaningful to the conversation other than "hur dur you suck" He's complaining sure, but it's no QQ thread. He's raising concerns and questions. But never mind about that he just sucks right?

Teemo or Feedmo1 votes

that comment is the most accuarate definition of autism i've ever seen

Joe Dredd1 votes

"im shit and i died in jungle but i cant accept that im shit"

Teemo or Feedmo1 votes

go back to shitposting on 4chan,that's where you belong. if you think jungling is easier than s5 you're obviously an autistic retard that can't get your head out of your ass and see things better. kill yourself.

Joe Dredd1 votes

Look at my recent games. Look how often I don't have to back until i have a full jungle item on rengar.

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