To Everyone On the DFG vs Assassin Dagger Debate

Lord Boltrix··6 votes·1,491 views

First, before you try to compare the two, understand that while they both fulfill the purpose of increasing damage output, DFG was removed for a very specific reason.

In the case of Deathfire Grasp, the item itself was a balance nightmare. See, there is a fundamental difference between the role of an assassin and the role of a mage. Most mages are good at doing damage than can be bursty, but the majority of mages can't insta-gimp a squishy before they have time to retreat to their tower. Their burst is oriented towards teamfights and generally just causing mayhem with every ability for the opposing team.

Assassins, on the other hand, are not oriented to teamfights in the way mages are, they thrive instead on picking off lone targets out of position, excelling at being able to get in, get the kill, then get out. Assassins have extremely good burst single-target, but they have to risk themselves to get in and can be dealt with then and there by a prepared team.

Deathfire Grasp essentially turned more than a few mages into long-range assassins.

Deathfire Grasp promoted a style of mages that would simply seek out a target that wasn't a tank, use the active to take a small chunk of their health, then dump every cooldown on them without any thought, and more than likely the target was dead, and then the mage just left, having accomplished the role of an assassin despite not being fundamentally designed as such.

It's like giving marksmen an item with stats designed for them, with means of mitigating all incoming damage AND ignoring crowd control for a few seconds, which would promote marksman to start playing as fighters would, and make balancing certain champions a complete and utter nightmare (there is a good chance Urgot of all champions, with his own passive to reduce damage, would probably jump to the top of the Flavor of the Month club with an item like that).

Meanwhile, the only champions who benefit from the item Assassin Dagger are Assassins and Fighters who thrive on Armor Penetration, like Gangplank and Pantheon, because ADC's need to auto-attack and can't choose when to proc the passive.

19 Comments

disregardable4 votes

Okay. So DFG making mages function like assassins was bad, but Dagger making fighters function like assassins is a-okay.

Got it.

I am soo NA6 votes

Fighters were always able to assassinate squishy targets. Them buying this item and insta-killing an ADC won't change anything. In fact, they can kill ADCs so quickly that proc. won't even be needed. That said, fighters without defensive items will be dead rather quickly, so they most likely won't even buy that item in the first place.

Sire Hippington1 votes

yea, cause mage totally aren't able to kill squishy fighters... The problem was that it eneabled one-shots on more utillity focused champs even with a not full-classcannon built. And that might work on fighters aswell. I can totally see xin kill an adc within 2 sec useing that item+yomuu's as only of items, same with J4, poppy, some adc and so on. If the main focus of an item is to add burst that is not that related to a champions kit/scaleings, abusecases are very likely.

Lord Boltrix3 votes

Fighter's lack the burst needed to make full use of the passive. Most fighters mix in auto-attacks with whatever abilities they have to deal their sustain-oriented damage, hence not being able to make full use of the item. Gangplank and Pantheon are going to take the item for the armor penetration and attack damage, the passive is nice but it's only useful if they need a good auto-attack to finish off an already low enemy.

originary913 votes

You also forgot to mention that DFG gave a 15% Max health nuke AND a massive 20% damage amplification. Let me just say that again. A 15% MAX HEALTH NUKE, AND a massive 20% damage amplification. DFG >>>> Assassins dagger, no contest. More effective against tanks and squishies. The initial burst (Which could be done straight away, not after a delay) did about as much damage as Assassins dagger will do, and the amplification...well obviously makes it better.

Gigahappytown1 votes

{quoted}

You also forgot to mention that DFG gave a 15% Max health nuke AND a massive 20% damage amplification. Let me just say that again. A 15% MAX HEALTH NUKE, AND a massive 20% damage amplification. DFG >>>> Assassins dagger, no contest. More effective against tanks and squishies. The initial burst (Which could be done straight away, not after a delay) did about as much damage as Assassins dagger will do, and the amplification...well obviously makes it better.

LOL

YOu lucky to deal even 100+ bonus damage with assassin dagger.

Demon at Sword2 votes

I hate new assassin item idea, I will have to use my precious intervention against mongrels such as Zed Talon :C

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mad Kayle,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xu7hm6VJ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-12-22T10:05:56.964+0000)

I hate new assassin item idea, I will have to use my precious intervention against mongrels such as Zed Talon :C

I too hate it, even though I am an AD assassin main (and akali).

Assassin dagger is not the way to go. It's way too gimmicky.

Demon at Sword1 votes

plus one more fact, If I was AD assassin main I would be afraid of "devourer effect". They added stated devourer and patch after they took off my waifu's AD (5 AD) and then they nerfed devourer without reverting her AD :CCCCCCCC damn rito. So yeah they will add op item, then they will nerf all AD assassins and then they will nerf item and RIP.

Vekkna1 votes

So you're saying that the game will be tolerable again in about 4 months.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mad Kayle,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xu7hm6VJ,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-22T10:24:17.487+0000)

plus one more fact, If I was AD assassin main I would be afraid of "devourer effect". They added stated devourer and patch after they took off my waifu's AD (5 AD) and then they nerfed devourer without reverting her AD :CCCCCCCC damn rito. So yeah they will add op item, then they will nerf all AD assassins and then they will nerf item and RIP.

Kayle has the base stats of a melee champion with range. That's never been okay. At least now if she tries to harass in lane we can deal with her better.

Demon at Sword1 votes

Well, fervor of battle gave me all that damage back so I am fine, but you will never understand how hard it was before those cool keystones and guinsoo. These changes makes her viable/balanced pick. Many ppl call her unbalanced but it is only if I play her. I once played against platinum player, I played Diana , he played Kayle guess what happened. 22/3 Diana was roaming the rift one shotting strangers while 0/10 Kayle was running/crying/praying/begging for her life.¨

Plus similar scenario happened when my diamond friend tried her, he fed their Fizz so hard so we ff 20.

I dont want her buffed or nerfed in any way, this is perfect for me. Ordinary players are bad with her and can't use her well while I can make miracles with her. (a bit ego boosting sentense tho) I just have champion for myself.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mad Kayle,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xu7hm6VJ,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-22T10:24:17.487+0000)

plus one more fact, If I was AD assassin main I would be afraid of "devourer effect". They added stated devourer and patch after they took off my waifu's AD (5 AD) and then they nerfed devourer without reverting her AD :CCCCCCCC damn rito. So yeah they will add op item, then they will nerf all AD assassins and then they will nerf item and RIP.

Better known as the black cleaver effect, where they nerfed all the AD assassins because they were able to stack cleaver, after which they proceeded to both nerf cleaver and make it unable to stack. In fact, at the time, cleaver was nerfed so badly NOBODY wanted to buy it.

Surfer Ashe1 votes

The thing I don't get is why we need this item

Either it will be garbage and no one uses it ever, or it'll be staple on all assassins because it's too strong in their case, and this will result in nerfs to said assassins.

Assassins really need an item rehaul, because introducing one item only means it gets abused (like Feral/Devourer) or ignored (Like Zz'rot and Ohmwrecker)

ThePartyLeader1 votes

Let's not forget dfg did %max health allowing some mages to burst tanks, squishies, and bruisers alike. The dagger does damage based on missing health making it less useful in bursting non squishies.

Wînter Fox1 votes

See, there is a fundamental difference between the role of an assassin and the role of a mage.

AP Assassins don't exist?

Lord Boltrix1 votes

It's not an issue of having Mage/Assassins or Assassin/Mages, in other words it's not an issue of the existence of AP Assassins. It's a problem when someone who isn't an assassin can suddenly play like a assassin and do it just as good, sometimes even better than a traditional assassin.

After all, if an assassin gets their cooldowns after getting an assassin kill, they stay an assassin who isn't very useful for teamfights and only excels at one on one matches. If a mage gets their cooldowns after getting an assassin kill, they're still a mage who can also contribute extremely well to teamfights.

It got to a point where mages could offer more than assassins could in terms of both teamfighting and killing potential.

Wînter Fox1 votes

In that case they should rework the item so its attractive to AP assassins and not Mages. The same way they plan to make this new item attractive to AD Assassins and not ADCs.

Gigahappytown1 votes

Asassin dagger is that

a gimmick

Its not good its not bad its just that

a gimmick

i doubt it will be a core item on any champ

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