Why Karthus is not very Unique

Robert Smith··4 votes·1,181 views

Rito mentioned that the reason Karthus was not considered for the mage update was because he has a very unique kit, and that he would be looked at after the item update to see if he still needs help (he does). But is Karthus really that unique? Out of his entire kit, only half can be considered unique or even useful when trying to combo with another ability.

Death Defied "What do we say to Kindred? Not Today!" Here is one of the two unique abilities on the kit. This ability lets Karthus cast spells after Death for a brief few seconds, mana free. Unlike other zombie passives, this one allows you to cast spells. But it only rewards you for dying, which unless you actually do becomes useless if you have a perfect game. But that is a good trade off for how strong the passive is.

Lay Waste "All that potential.WASTED!" This spell is highly unreliable and is not nearly as rewarding. The cooldown and "trigger" moment of the spell is just long enough to be fair but too long for Karthus to actually lane against an opponent with it. This has made laning with Karthus a Farm simulator (No stacking) since any champion with boots or a spamable dash can poke Karthus without taking a single Q damage. But what is even worse is that this skill is not Unique, nor as rewarding as other skills. Ziggs Zilean Sion Lux Cassiopeia These champions have an AoE ability that both allows them to farm and harass the enemy easily. The only difference is that they have a longer cooldown so it is allowed to hit enemies more easily. I would be willing to give up some spam for more reliability like other champions.

Wall of Pain "Tis but a Scratch." This ability has been nerfed to near useless and is also not very unique. Sure it makes a really big wall which people can't avoid, but you know who else can make a better wall (No not Trump) Anivia Azir Unlike Karthus their wall people cannot pass. Sure Karthus has %MR Shred but when landing Q's are really difficult it almost does not matter. But it also slows, which unfortunately has been nerfed and slows do not do anything against dashes. Hopefully if "grounded becomes a thing this could be added to Karthus' wall to help against the increasing pool of mobility creep.

Defile "I feel so violated" This spell makes a pool of magic damage all around Karthus, sounds unique right? Wrong! Amumu DrMundo Swain These three all have toggle AoE abilities that drain a resource over time, and there are many more that have more utility built in that are either not a toggle (Fiddlesticks can blink in fights) or do not have to be centered on themselves (Anivia comes with a slow too)

Amumu gets a %health shred which would be nice on Karthus since his Q is hard to land, and he is squishy which means he can't just spam it into fights and not get blown up (then his passive takes over but you could balance it easily to do less with it).

Swain gets health back while doing damage.

these two champions have a similar ability but are allowed to be given more probably because of Karthus' most unique spell of them all.

Requiem* "I AM THE LIGHTBRINGER!"-Karthus This is perhaps his most unique and well known spell. A "press R to win" button. The only problem with it is that it might be deemed too powerful. Karthus is given a weak laning phase and a weak trading kit because of how much reliable damage he can do with his ult. Late game my Ult usually does 1k ap damage. 1k of click and do damage. The only problem is that if you cannot avoid it, you die. If you have any means of avoiding it your chances of living skyrocket. Because of new champions and items Karthus ult can be easily avoided whether it be : ITEMS: item 3102 item 3157 item 3026 YOUR KIT ABILITY:Aatrox Anivia Bard Fizz Kindred Lissandra Vladimir Zilean Zed Zac Elise Kayle Morgana Ekko RekSai Fiora SOMEONE ELSE'S KIT ABILITY:Bard Kayle Kindred Morgana Soraka TahmKench Zilean OR A CC THAT STOPS THE CHANNEL:ERROR LIST TOO LARGE.

I get the cc to stop part, but does it have to be so easy to counter against once he cast it? I could name other champions with a similar ability but that are all skill shots or AoE related. So well done Riot there is one unique ability but this should not exclude him from a rework or at least a touch up. Especially with the new items coming out, so please consider him for at least an update to his kit so he doesn't feel useless early game, or God forbid his late game.

tl;dr Passive Braaaains. Okay skill Q Skittles attack not reliable Similar but better skill. Ziggs Zilean Sion Lux Cassiopeia W Wall of extreme minor discomfort. Trump would rather have Anivia Azir since there wall is useful for stopping people from crossing it. E Blue Jacuzzi generic and does not do much other than damage. Archaic skill that needs to be updated to have utility similar to other champions Amumu DrMundo Swain R "PENTAKILL" maybe. Very unique skill but too easy to avoid with an increasing amount of items and skills as the roster grows.

EDIT: Forgot Ekko could dodge it as well and apparently RekSai as well. Also added Fiora

23 Comments

DorkunedAuras2 votes

how do zac and aatrox dodge Requiem?

Also, Rek'Sai can ult and dodge it, as well as Ekko

Maple Crusader2 votes

{quoted}

how do zac and aatrox dodge Requiem?

Also, Rek'Sai can ult and dodge it, as well as Ekko

Zac and Aatrox have revive passives, allowing them to avoid dying from Requiem.

DorkunedAuras1 votes

They can't dodge the actual damage though (unless they purposefully kill themselves, which ruins the point).

blackcat13001 votes

No the piont is the ult gets wasted on a champ that doesn't die and then their passives are back off cooldown before his ult is.

They don't have to wary about dying to Requiem because they have their passives. The hole point is the play safe or Karthus will get you with your ult doesn't matter.

DorkunedAuras1 votes

cough zac passive is 5 minutes.

blackcat13001 votes

His ult may tame may take another minuet and a half more but it is unlikly that he will be back in kill range for the plus he gets passive mr scaling.

Power Cosmic2 votes

For Karthus to be more useful he needs more default mana so he can use his E more often early to keep enemies off him. His Q is hard to hit consistently.

Robert Smith2 votes

I think they are increasing the mana pool for mages, might be wrong

blackcat13001 votes

when they removed summoner 13 and mana pots Karthus was the only mage that didn't get buffed.

blackcat13002 votes

He needs more default damage it take 7-13 Q's to kill a champ at 6 it that is 10.5 - 19.5 seconds of fighting.

It takes Karthus enemies 2 or less seconds to kill him. Plus a single target Q isn't even satisfying it never feel good unless you catch the adc of guard and their squishy.

His Q should deal triple damage to champs and large jungle mobs and double aoe damage. Then it only takes 4- 6 Q's to kill your enemy.

Zorasama1 votes

Shaco can also dodge his ult.

Quepha1 votes

Taking Karthus and carving him up into only his individual abilities to look at them one by one is not a useful way to examine a champion. I would say the mages most similar to Karthus are Ryze and Cassiopeia yet of those two Cass only appears in your post once and Ryze doesn't appear at all.

Robert Smith1 votes

I was arguing that Karthus does not as a Unique kit as Riot believes and besides his Ult and passive, he does not excel at anything. Also Cass is similar because she has a Point AoE skill how is Ryze similar at all?

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

I was arguing that Karthus does not as a Unique kit as Riot believes and besides his Ult and passive, he does not excel at anything. Also Cass is similar because she has a Point AoE skill how is Ryze similar at all?

Ryze is similar in that he is also a lategame dps mage with no mobility, but he is more single target and tanky with windows of power and weakness while Karthus has no such windows and can spread his damage out over many targets easily. Still, given what period in the game they are looking to win, and their pattern for dealing damage in a fight, that makes Ryze certainly much closer to Karthus than champions like Amumu or Mundo who you laughably included in your first post.

Karthus excels at magic AoE dps and waveclear. Very few mages have strong dps and of those they are usually focused on single target. He also is good at securing kills and his passive allows him to make up for his lack of mobility and squishiness by maintaining a zoning and damage presence after his death.

Karthus does actually have a very unique kit when you look at his KIT and not his abilities one-by-one. As a full package there is no other champion like him in the League.

Robert Smith1 votes

I'm not comparing their playstlye though, I am looking at each skill and comparing how other champions have similar spells and are better than the ones Karthus has. I talk about Amumu and Mundo because the have a self centered AoE abilites. If you pick Karthus because he has one there are champions with a better skill alone not including what ever else they have on their kit. If you Pick Karthus because he can Spam Q, why bother other champions have a similar ability while doing better. You choose him because of his wall? Again other champions have a better option than Karthus. His E does flat amount of damage which if you have MR, mobility, and/or range then your E is out shined when, if you picked him for the E, other champions have a more reliable toggle skill than Karthus. Outside of his passive and Ult Karthus does not have a reason to be picked over someone with better poke or range such as Ziggs Lux since his kit is made to harass people, which is difficult to do when everything is is weak or unreliable.

Also Ryze gains MS and has a snare both of which Karthus does not. And no window of weakness? Get close to Karthus or have mobility or even his early game is his window of weakness. At least Ryze can hold people down, meanwhile Karthus has to hope his E can do enough damage while people attack him inside it before they kill him. I would say Karthus has a bigger window of weakness than Ryze.

(PS keep going I sincerely love debating things, no really not trying to be mean or sarcastic :P)

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

I'm not comparing their playstlye though, I am looking at each skill and comparing how other champions have similar spells

I know, and that is a complete waste of everyone's time

You don't pick Karthus for his E, you don't pick him for his Q, you don't pick him for his W, you don't even pick him for his R. You pick him because of his Q + W + E + R + Passive + his base stats.

Your comparison to Ziggs and Lux is ridiculous. Karthus puts out levels of dps that they could only dream of, there are team compositions that would beg for a Karthus and laugh at a Ziggs or Lux pick.

blackcat13001 votes

No you pick him for eveything but his W witch sucks now.

But you have to look at the whole and the individual abilities. If you do you see how week he is first he only has one build path second he is a mid mage with no jungle benefits. His ult is reliant on how bad your enemy is and will only be use 3-5
times a game.

His slow is pathetic in comparison to other slows he is onlg good with item buffs.

Plus he gets 0 benefit from cool-down reduction. He is a dps mage that deals less damage then a Cait who can deal 1500 at 2 times a second were Karthus only deals 900 at every 1.5 seconds.

that is 4500 damage in 3 seconds to 1800 damage in 3 seconds. You can't say he has a great late game when it isn't even on par with other dps champs. That deal single target damage.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

He is a dps mage that deals less damage then a Cait who can deal 1500 at 2 times a second were Karthus only deals 900 at every 1.5 seconds.

http://champion.gg/champion/Karthus

He deals the MOST damage of any mid laner on average. Number 1 in the charts for damage dealt, and more than ANY adc champion by over 16%, especially Caitlyn who is 8th place in her role. Given that mid laners probably deal more damage than any other role that would make Karthus THE HIGHEST DAMAGE CHAMPION IN THE GAME.

blackcat13001 votes

Yes but this is only the best game of the season and we haven't had the mid mage updates plus. Most Gold and above Karthus players are in the jungle.

Plus that is over all damage not damage of a single ability.

Plus Yorik beats him in damage Yorik 259,190 >29,960.

Plus this chart Excludes Jungle Karthus from the ratio.

Also look at the player base average game the pleople that are playing Karthus on average have played at least 100 games. Vs champs VS. champs that are playing Yasouro Katerina and Zed witch all have higher win ratios and player % how play that champ and higher kill ratios.

The data dosen't support your point mine dose from a dps stand point Karthus is greatly lacking.

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Middle&sortBy=general.kills&order=descend&search=

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

Yes but this is only the best game of the season and we haven't had the mid mage updates plus. Most Gold and above Karthus players are in the jungle.

Plus that is over all damage not damage of a single ability.

Plus Yorik beats him in damage Yorik 259,190 >29,960.

Plus this chart Excludes Jungle Karthus from the ratio.

Also look at the player base average game the pleople that are playing Karthus on average have played at least 100 games. Vs champs VS. champs that are playing Yasouro Katerina and Zed witch all have higher win ratios and player % how play that champ and higher kill ratios.

The data dosen't support your point mine dose from a dps stand point Karthus is greatly lacking.

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Middle&sortBy=general.kills&order=descend&search=

Why are you wasting everyone's time with nonsense?

blackcat13001 votes

What is nonsense I showed the different stat trees and how you can miss read the data. Karthus may deal more damage but is it relivent damage?

Answer No. How often is he played how often dose he die hoe often dose he get kills how often do people playing Karthus win.

And; The most important question how skilled are the people how play Karthus. If you check on average the people playing Karthus have played about a houndered games vs Zed witch is thirty. This mean even is a new player that has only played 5 games so farm played him that their is another has played over 150 games. So most of the people that play Karthus are highly skilled experience wise.

While Zed has 30 games means that their are a lot more inexperienced leuge player using him but still wining games and doing better then the high skilled Karthus players.

Thus Karthus is not fulfilling his role by giving satisfying damage sustain or even utility. Witch is why people gravitate to other champs known to give satisfying results even if they take time to learn and skill to use.

Karthus needs his kit updated or his base stats he just doesn't feel like a battle mage like Ekko, Swain, Vlad, Sol, Arhi, Nidalee or Elise.

blackcat13001 votes

think he is a bit week right now and could us a small buff or some more utility These are some of my ideas for buffing him but Yah the wall nerff really didn't need to happen

That is okay this is my take on a Karthus buff or two.

Karthus is missing something to make up for certain falls in the mid game. So I would like the to add a stacking passive to defiled. Passive each kill give you a stack, max 5, each stack gives 1,2,3,4,5 per cent spell vamp Active when toggle on defiled he gets bonus % of ability power to all abilities you toggle off defile. You then loose all stacks and you loose all stacks at the end of death defied.

I think this would be a nice revamp to an old champ and would allow him to return to the pro seen. I would help to prevent early game magic resist shut down and help give karthus back some damage. I would increase his skill cap suitability and would not make him over powered. with max stacks and having defiled on you can have 55%/75% Q 55% E and 75% R This could be redused to only 0.5, 1, 2, 3, 4 Q. I know the ult seems op but late game if it doesn't kill someone life steel usually negate the damage.

I would also like to see 2,4,6,8,5 spellvamp per-stack and 1,2,3,4,5% bonus ap to all ablities. Since you only gain stackes when defile is toggled off and loos all stacks when toggled from on to off, this max for a fun mechanic.

Max stack 200ap change lv 1-5 Wall 5%=10 10%=20 15%=30 25%=50 Defile 25%=50 30%=60 35%=70 40%=80 45%=90 Lay waist 35%=70 40%=80 45%=90 50%=10 55%=110 Lay Waist single target and ult 65%=130 70%=140 75%=150 80%=160 85%=170

Max stack 1070ap change from lv 1-5 Wall 5%=535 10%=107 15%=160 25%=267 Defile 25%=267 30%=321 35%=375 40%=428 45%=482 Lay waist 35%=375 40%=428 45%=482 50%=535 55%=588 Lay waist single target and ult 65%=695 70%=749 75%=803 80%=856 85%=909 %ap could be change to .5,1,2,3,4

Or they could add DFG's effect to his wall of pain and give it an area of affect that if an enemy champion would dash, flash, or tp in the area of the wall excluding ult they would instantly get teleported in to the wall and stunned for 1.5 sec.

Similar to how has a wall that stops the dash this one redirects you in to the wall giving Karthus more depth. I could even be renamed Torn Vale of Eternity

You know he is warping the space between life and death thus DFG's effect on wall would make seance as would the warping effects on dashes and tp's. they could even change his Q's so they deal double damage large jungle mobs and champs as aoe damage and triple damage to single target large jungle mobs and champions. NOW Lay Waste Cost: 20/26/32/38/44 Mana Range: 875 Karthus unleashes a delayed blast at a location, dealing damage to nearby enemies. Creates a delayed blast at Karthus' cursor position. After 0.5 seconds, deals 40/60/80/100/120 (+30% Ability Power) magic damage to each nearby enemy, this deals double damage if it hits only a single unit.

Patched

40/60/80/100/120 (+30% Ability Power) aoe minions

80/120/160/200/240 (+60% Ability Power) single minion and aoe to champs / large jungle mobs

120/180/240/300/360 (+90% Ability Power) single target champion and large jungle mobs.

Just in case you wanted a suggested buff.

blackcat1300 (NA) - 10 days ago

Another idea is make it so that wall of pain is renamed torn vale of eternity.

and give it am area around it that make it so that if you would dash flash tp ect, in the area you get stuck in the wall and stunned for .75-1 second.

Robert Smith1 votes

I like adding to the idea of giving his wall more utility but stuns or anything snare like might be too much. Having champions get "Grounded" ,similar to what they are giving to Cassiopeia, might make it a better skill. Adding spell vamp to him for every kill seems like something that should stay with champions like Rengar but i do want something related about death to be on Karthus. Something like thresh but where Karthus is the direct cause of their death

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