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Nasus rework

Great Ozymandius··3 votes·1,250 views

I think Nasus is fine as he is. However, there have been many qq threads about him lately. If Riot decides to change him, I hope they go in a direction like this.

These changes are designed to weaken Nasus' midgame, where many people complain he is too strong, while strenthening his late-game, where Nasus is meant to be strong but currently isn't. That is, in late-game teamfights he gets kited to hell, and it is very difficult for him to splitpush in late-game because in the late-game the other team can 5v4 turret dive easily. Currently, Nasus is strongest at 22-33 minutes (if he has farmed well up to 22 minutes); his win condition is to farm very well up to 22 minutes, then use his powerspike to either take towers for force them enemy team to go top lane, giving his team a numbers advantage. He needs to win the game or at least set his team up for a win by the 33 minute or else his team faces bad odds.

Here goes:

New additional passive: Tithe All items cost 30% additional gold. All items provide an additional 20% in stats.

What this passive would do is reduce the gold efficiency but increase the slot efficiency of all items. This means Nasus would be unaffected in the early game (before items are purchased), would be weaker midgame (when gold efficiency is more important than slot efficiency), but would become considerably stronger in the late-game with a full-item build. I have no idea what the right numbers would be, but this mechanic adds an interesting way to tune Nasus' power curve, weakening him mid and strengthening him late. This is kind of like how ad itemization works -- items like IE are not very gold efficient, at least early, but are very slot efficient. Thus, full-item adc's are considerably more valuable than most full-item tanks. This is why teams prioritize getting the adc fed.

This passive would also nerf Nasus' sustain in lane, forcing him to use his lifesteal. That is, the price of health pots and flasks would go up, but the duration of health pots is not a stat that would be buffed by tithe. This weakens his early game somewhat.

New passive on ultimate: spirit sprint. activating q provides a temporary movespeed buff. The movespeed buff scales with q stacks. For the duration of the movespeed buff, tenacity is increased (scales with q stacks up to a cap). Using the q-empowered auto-attack cancels this movespeed/tenacity buff early.

What this passive would do is increase Nasus' ability to get to the back-line in late game teamfights. The power would be very situational. Early game he does not have ultimate and cannot access spirit sprint. Early midgame he does not have max cdr or 9 ranks in q, so q has a longer cooldown and the spirit sprint buff cannot be frequently utilized. In addition, he has fewer q-stacks, so spirit sprint does not provide much extra movespeed. Furthermore, using q to bop minions cancels the However, it can aid as a gapcloser and can help against cc when timed correctly. Using q on a minion removes the movepeed buff and the tenacity boost, providing a good opportunity for an opponent to cc him. In late-game teamfights it would be situational -- if he activates q and doesn't have something to bop with it, then the movespeed will dissipate, and the q will remain 'charged' (can't remember the term), so he won't be able to reactivate it. This means activating it prematurely will waste it. It also means that he wants to activate it just before getting cc'd, then wants to use the movespeed buff to get to the enemy backline. Because the tenacity boost is shortlived, follow-up cc will still ruin Nasus' day. The temporary tenacity buff is much better than a permanent tenacity buff like Irelia has, providing windows of opportunity and requiring good decision-making.

While this buff strengthens Nasus' teamfight, he has to farm q well to properly utilize it, reinforcing Nasus' identity as the premier stacking god, which is part of his core identity.

These two new features would allow Nasus' powercurve to be tuned as the balance team requires -- number tweaks on "tithe" can weaken Nasus' midgame while strengthening his late game. Number tweaks on "spirit sprint", including on the q-stack scaling of spirit sprint, can strengthen Nasus' late game teamfights without affecting his early game and without much improving his midgame.

These changes are thematically appropriate for the religious zealot that Nasus is, they affirm his q-stacking identity, and they push his powercurve into a late-game direction, where he was always meant to be strong (but actually isn't so strong currently).

Thoughts?

10 Comments

FantasySniper2 votes

This is actually really interesting.

Though "spirit sprint" probably shouldn't scale with stacks. It would be better for it to scale with ultimate progression.

Great Ozymandius1 votes

Thank you. Scaling with ultimate progressing is an interesting idea. However, I think making it scale off q stacks reinforces the importance of Nasus stacking q and of his laning opponent denying him farm.

EndlessSorcerer2 votes

The change to his passive would be both crippling (removing the entirety of his sustain) and it will never happen. Riot is moving away from pure stats passives and that one is both horribly designed and impractical.

Nasus is balanced around his immobility. I would highly recommend against giving him innate mobility in his kit.

People complain about any champion who has managed to beat them. Just ignore them and let them whine.

Great Ozymandius1 votes

"The change to his passive would be both crippling (removing the entirety of his sustain) and it will never happen."

I did not say "replace his passive", I said "new additional passive". Not sure how you got confused.

"that one is both horribly designed and impractical."

Why? What do you mean by "impractical"? Hard to implement? It would be quite easy to code. Hard to utilize by Nasus? Well, yes, that's the point. It weakens his early and mid game while strengthening his late game. He doesn't get to take advantage of it unless he gets close to full build. That is the point. That is how it shifts the power curve.

What do you mean by "horribly designed"? It is well designed from a balance perspective -- it gives you two numbers to tweak Nasus' power curve. Increasing the tithe cost reduces his power up until full build and especially at the mid game. Increasing the stats from items increases his power at all stages of the game. Thus, moving the two numbers around allows the balance team to change his late game and mid game power as is appropriate for balance. That sounds very well designed to me. Well-designed champions are easy to balance.

"Nasus is balanced around his immobility. I would highly recommend against giving him innate mobility in his kit."

It is situational mobility and only useful lategame because of how it scales with stacks and needs cdr and 5 ranks in q. If he is to be a late-game monster, as he was intended to be, he needs some sort of mobility or tenacity (like Darius or Garen have -- the two other notable top-lane juggernauts). Otherwise he will always be weak in late-game teamfights, and being weak in late-game teamfights means you are weak in the late-game, period. This is the best way to give it to him -- it is only significant in the late-game, it is a movespeed boost (the weakest kind of mobility), and can only be accessed intermittently with significant tradeoffs involved.

Sniper 02 votes

[{quoted}](name=Great Ozymandius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xRnuaWim,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-03-26T19:48:43.219+0000)

"The change to his passive would be both crippling (removing the entirety of his sustain) and it will never happen."

I did not say "replace his passive", I said "new additional passive". Not sure how you got confused.

"that one is both horribly designed and impractical."

Why?

"Nasus is balanced around his immobility. I would highly recommend against giving him innate mobility in his kit."

It is situational mobility and only useful lategame because of how it scales with stacks and needs cdr and 5 ranks in q. If he is to be a late-game monster, as he was intended to be, he needs some sort of mobility or tenacity (like Darius or Garen have -- the two other notable top-lane juggernauts). This is the best way to give it to him -- situationaly and late-game.

Nasus's kit already comes with a ton of free stats, you want to give him more? Please...

Great Ozymandius1 votes

I don't think you have thought about what I wrote.

Answer this: do these changes make him stronger in the early game? No, they make him weaker.

Do these changes make him stronger in the midgame? No, they make him weaker.

Do these changes make him stronger in the lategame? Yes.

The late game stats advantage isn't free, because it comes at the cost of the early and midgame. I don't think you understand the meaning of the word "free".

Sniper 02 votes

[{quoted}](name=Great Ozymandius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xRnuaWim,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-26T19:54:33.286+0000)

I don't think you have thought about what I wrote.

Answer this: do these changes make him stronger in the early game? No, they make him weaker.

Do these changes make him stronger in the midgame? No, they make him weaker.

Do these changes make him stronger in the lategame? Yes.

The late game stats advantage isn't free, because it comes at the cost of the early and midgame. I don't think you understand the meaning of the word "free".

I don't think you understand what you're talking about. Movement speed on his q, stacking q, Hp buff with his ulti, Extra stats on all purchases (Doesn't really matter that you increased the cost a little, the champ farms all game)

You said add a longer cd to his q but then he just rushes his cdr items and continues stacking. He still does damage because of his q. Armor shred on his e. An as/ms slow so he's way stickier.... I don't think you thought this rework through. 20% stats will come out to be a higher value than the 30% gold cost increase

Or lets say the passive gates him too much? His build will literally just become the most gold efficient items in the game and we'll end up with one efficient build. So we constrict the doge even further.

So with this rework he would become overpowered or utterly useless. I'm more leaning toward utterly useless at this point because most games end by 20-30 minutes and Nasus will not have ramped up at that point.

Or he could end up dominating his lane because of a simple and overloaded kit. Movement speed bonus on a tank with HIS slow? Please...

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

Great Ozymandius1 votes

"(Doesn't really matter that you increased the cost a little, the champ farms all game) "

Yes, it does matter, and potentially a lot depending on how the numbers are tweaked. If gold efficiency drops by 10%, that means that up until the very late game (and not very many games go to late game), he will be weaker. Most games are decided before late game. And most games are won based on early advantages. Giving him a (larger) early disadvantage significantly weakens him. A late game advantage must be very strong to make up for a modest weakness early game. Also, the increased gold price means it will take longer for him to get his completed item power spikes. So much of this game is about timing backs to get good completed item power spikes. A champion coming back to lane with a sheen is much stronger than a champion coming back to lane with a pickaxe and a longsword even though they are similarly expensive. A champion coming back to lane with a phage, zeal, and sheen and a longsword is considerably weaker than a champion coming back with a triforce, even though the triforce is slightly less expensive. Timing in this game is everything.

I'm wondering if you've read many discussions about power spikes.

"You said add a longer cd to his q"

I did not.

"Or lets say the passive gates him too much? His build will literally just become the most gold efficient items in the game and we'll end up with one efficient build. So we constrict the doge even further. "

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Also it's already pretty much true that Nasus buys the most gold-efficient items. Other than triforce, which is expensive, Nasus builds tank items. Tank items are the most gold efficient items. What items are more gold efficient than the ones Nasus already builds?

"So with this rework he would become overpowered or utterly useless."

Well, which one is it? You think it is impossible to tune the numbers to make him balanced? These kit additions would give the balance team more levers to tune his power curve. Kits that allow powercurves to be easily tuned are kits that allow the champion to be properly balanced.

"I'm more leaning toward utterly useless at this point because most games end by 20-30 minutes and Nasus will not have ramped up at that point. "

Wait, I thought you were complaining about all the extra free stats my changes gave him. Make up your mind already.

"Or he could end up dominating his lane because of a simple and overloaded kit. Movement speed bonus on a tank with HIS slow? "

You can't make up your mind, can you?

And again, why do you think it would be impossible to tune the numbers correctly? The kit additions would give the balance team the right levers.

Sasogwa2 votes

That actually works very well at reforming Nasus into a more lategame champion aka what he should be, but I fear it would be a bit too weird thematically to put in place. And that could also kill his viability. But still, I like it

Great Ozymandius1 votes

Thank you.

"could also kill his viability"

Depends on the number tweaks. You could reduce the tithe cost if it is hurting his midgame too much or increase the stats boost if you want to increase his late game power more to make up for the weaker mid game.

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