My take on the Zed balance issue as a Zed main

Azirion Sol·Jan 21, 2015·17 votes·2,486 views

Everyone seems to blame Zeds ability to delete squishies and get away in a blink, without enough commitment from him So, here are my thoughts on trying to change him as he was originally meant to be

Shift some of Es damage into his Passive and/or Q. Reduces his "easy" damage when he comes out of Deathmark untargetability
Revert 3.13 Deathmark changes and;
Put W on CD if it was used before Deathmark. This will prevent an easy escape after an all-in
Disable W for 1.50 second right after Deathmark (effectively disabled for 0.75 seconds, counting Zeds untargetability frames), or until the second activation of it is used. Makes triple Qs harder to perform, and prevents an easy escape after an all-in
Reduce his bases to increase their scaling part and keep the AS nerfs, but not as much as on PBE currently. This will reduce the efficiency of AS items and promote the build of raw AD over more penetration or AS, on top of nerfing his laning phase and splitpushing power

IMO, these should be a big hit on bad/meta Zeds, while keeping experienced Zeds good enough to do their job nearly as good as live What do you fellas think?

87 Comments

Drunk RummateJan 21, 201521 votes

his ability to assassinate and escape is not the problem. it's his absurd dominance in lane due to being energy based with crazy waveclear and poke

Azirion SolJan 21, 20159 votes

"Crazy waveclear" means he has no cooldowns at all for the next 5 seconds, no shadow for the next 18 and no energy for the next 10. I don't know about you, but that screams "all-in time" for me, especially after level 6. Bait his R, proceed to get freelo
Is standing behind minions too hard for you? Or, you know, sidestepping? Or throwing some poke of your own?

Drunk RummateJan 21, 20156 votes

{quoted}

"Crazy waveclear" means he has no cooldowns at all for the next 5 seconds, no shadow for the next 18 and no energy for the next 10. I don't know about you, but that screams "all-in time" for me, especially after level 6. Bait his R, proceed to get freelo

Is standing behind minions too hard for you? Or, you know, sidestepping? Or throwing some poke of your own?

Sure if you want to fight him inside of a huge minion wave since he cleared yours and his are still there. Hope you don't have any skillshots because you're going to have melee minions humping you while you fight.
Standing behind your minions makes his poke even more effective because he can CS while he's harassing you which means you can't even try to deny him ranged creeps. Oh and sure I'll poke him back 7 times and then I'm oom and struggling to farm while he's topped off on his resource and cooldowns 18 seconds later, but hey at least I burned 2 of his 3 health potions for all my mana.

Azirion SolJan 21, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Sure if you want to fight him inside of a huge minion wave since he cleared yours and his are still there. Hope you don't have any skillshots because you're going to have melee minions humping you while you fight.

Standing behind your minions makes his poke even more effective because he can CS while he's harassing you which means you can't even try to deny him ranged creeps. Oh and sure I'll poke him back 7 times and then I'm oom and struggling to farm while he's topped off on his resource and cooldowns 18 seconds later, but hey at least I burned 2 of his 3 health potions for all my mana.

Too hard to land shit when he's standing still spamming W-E-Q-E to clear? 1.1 )Nobody told you to walk towards him 1.2) His W is on an 18 second CD. You have a jungler, don't you?
Stand behind full HP minions, don't stand in a direct line between him and Q'able minions. TLDR, use your brain? 2.1) Q SECONDARY DAMAGE: 45 / 69 / 93 / 117 / 141 (+ 60% bonus AD). Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think any mainstream mages Qs hits much harder than that 2.2) So, you're telling me that poking any standard champion 7 times runs you OOM while only making them consume 2 HP potions? Well, learn to land your skillshots, maybe?

Drunk RummateJan 21, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Too hard to land shit when he's standing still spamming W-E-Q-E to clear? 1.1 )Nobody told you to walk towards him 1.2) His W is on an 18 second CD. You have a jungler, don't you?

Stand behind full HP minions, don't stand in a direct line between him and Q'able minions. TLDR, use your brain? 2.1) Q SECONDARY DAMAGE: 45 / 69 / 93 / 117 / 141 (+ 60% bonus AD). Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think any mainstream mages Qs hits much harder than that 2.2) So, you're telling me that poking any standard champion 7 times runs you OOM while only making them consume 2 HP potions? Well, learn to land your skillshots, maybe?

1 - Why would he stand still while using WEQE? He can move in between casts just as freely as you can. Hell, he can even blink to his W and start autoing you if the opportunity presents itself.

You told me to walk towards him.

{quoted}

"Crazy waveclear" means he has no cooldowns at all for the next 5 seconds, no shadow for the next 18 and no energy for the next 10. I don't know about you, but that screams "all-in time" for me, especially after level 6. Bait his R, proceed to get freelo

He has a jungler as well, conveniently enough. Something people always seem to forget when they use the 'bait his mobility and call your jungler' comment.

2 - Conveniently enough, Zed can dodge your abilities just as well as you can dodge his. Except his resource is 100% full 18 seconds later while yours regens at a tenth the rate. Funny how that two way street you're describing seems to be a little lopsided.

Azirion SolJan 21, 20153 votes

{quoted}

1 - Why would he stand still while using WEQE? He can move in between casts just as freely as you can. Hell, he can even blink to his W and start autoing you if the opportunity presents itself.

You told me to walk towards him.

He has a jungler as well, conveniently enough. Something people always seem to forget when they use the 'bait his mobility and call your jungler' comment.

2 - Conveniently enough, Zed can dodge your abilities just as well as you can dodge his. Except his resource is 100% full 18 seconds later while yours regens at a tenth the rate. Funny how that two way street you're describing seems to be a little lopsided.

Q has quite a bit of a cast time. Confirmed you never played Zed He Ws into you with no energy or cooldowns and he's still alive? What the actual fuck man

I told you to walk into him when all-ining for the kill, not when poking. Besides, if an energyless/on cooldowns Zed and 6 minions blocks you from a kill (if you're a burster) or from heavily poking (if you're a mage) to the point he has to base, then you're flat out bad, again

Then don't complain about it? If you don't want to put junglers in the equation, you have 18 seconds of advantage over half of his burst

Now, correct me if I'm wrong again, but mages abilities generally have a much wider AoE than Zeds Shuriken, so if he's able to dodge them, he's effectively more skilled than you, in which case, don't cry about getting out-laned

CindikleJan 21, 20153 votes

Zed WQE's you.

You take advantage of this by attacking him as you say.

He W's again to avoid the skill shot coming at him and starts autoing you. Soon his E will be back up. Followed by his Q and an Ignite+passive proc. While you're waiting for your longer cooldowns. Or maybe you're low mana because you had to cast spells to keep up with his waveclearing so you don't get forced to farming under tower. Something Zed is known for getting kills under.

If you wait for his W to go away then move in. It probably wont mean much. He's likely already cleared most of the wave and is using his passive to last hit. If you wait too long after his W goes away his Q will be back up and he will try to hit you with it. In the end he's maybe down a potion and you're down Hp and mana. You can't keep this up as long as he can.

W is down and you called in a gank. And by chance your jungler is available. (The way you make it sound is that the jungler should be showing up every 18 seconds when his W is down. "Countered by 2v1'ing with jungler" is not a counter. But I'll continue. While his W is down he can safely farm with his passive and Q. Allowing him to stay focused on avoiding any skill shots and ganks. if one does land he does have flash. This makes him a target for camping, but that doesn't mean every gank will work. If your jungler spends the whole game camping a Zed who probably isn't going to die easily. That leaves their jungler to snowball the other two lanes. Zed doesn't take much to catch back up if he's behind. Simpilly put. If your only way to counter Zed is in that 18s window with the jungle's help, there is something very wrong with that.

You continue to make it sound like Zed is weak when his W is down. And that you can dodge everything of his, but he can't dodge anything of yours. Otherwise you're a baddie. Where did you pull that logic out of? Q is a VERY short cast time. It's width is probably in line with most mages. It's range is a little shorter. WE isn't hard to land. If he uses his abilities and W's in. He will win an auto battle. You don't just turn around and start fighting him. He W'ed in because he's planning on winning. Not because he wanted to land an auto and thought he'd get away.

Zed's ult is fine. Zed's E is overall fine Zed needs nerfing to his power in lane. He has almost no weak points other than he is melee. He scales very well. He has all in potential at almost every point in the game. He can outplay almost anyone with his shadows. This is not news either. S3 he had the same problems. People would complain about how he's an assassin that does everything. With no real weakness. This led to his ult getting changed. And a few other tweaks if I recall. Now that the S4 anti-snowball changes are gone and mages that can farm safely forever for 700g are done for. What held him back is gone. A lot of his soft-counters were removed. And those counters were mainly in the lanning phase.

TL; DR - His lanning phase needs nerfed. The rest of him is fine. At the least this will help shut people up about the mana regen changes. (Which BTW was overall buffed. People are just too used to the old Mana Font and forgot how to manage their mana.)

Azirion SolJan 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Zed WQE's you.

Don't walk into W range? It's 550. Use your abilities to poke instead

You take advantage of this by attacking him as you say.

He W's again to avoid the skill shot coming at him and starts autoing you. Soon his E will be back up. Followed by his Q and an Ignite+passive proc. While you're waiting for your longer cooldowns. Or maybe you're low mana because you had to cast spells to keep up with his waveclearing so you don't get forced to farming under tower. Something Zed is known for getting kills under.

He Ws into you, with no cooldowns nor energy (WEQ depletes his pool). Are you spectating yourself? If you were so low that he could just W-E-Q-W-E-AA-Ignite (all this takes, at least, 10 seconds) (there's not a second Q, because he won't have the energy to cast it) at level 3-5, you need to work on your laning phase

If you're low on mana and HP, while Zed has enough HP to dive all the minions at levels below 6, or the tower at 6, you need to work on that laning phase of yours

He can't clear a wave with WEQ without AAing, unless he's fed. If you let him AA the remaining minions without taking advantage of his cooldowns (which he used to put said minions at low HP), you're flat out bad

If you wait for his W to go away then move in. It probably wont mean much. He's likely already cleared most of the wave and is using his passive to last hit. If you wait too long after his W goes away his Q will be back up and he will try to hit you with it. In the end he's maybe down a potion and you're down Hp and mana. You can't keep this up as long as he can.

See above

W is down and you called in a gank. And by chance your jungler is available. (The way you make it sound is that the jungler should be showing up every 18 seconds when his W is down. "Countered by 2v1'ing with jungler" is not a counter. But I'll continue. While his W is down he can safely farm with his passive and Q. Allowing him to stay focused on avoiding any skill shots and ganks. if one does land he does have flash. This makes him a target for camping, but that doesn't mean every gank will work. If your jungler spends the whole game camping a Zed who probably isn't going to die easily. That leaves their jungler to snowball the other two lanes. Zed doesn't take much to catch back up if he's behind. Simpilly put. If your only way to counter Zed is in that 18s window with the jungle's help, there is something very wrong with that.

Let's keep the jungler out of this (my mistake on using that argument, as someone else pointed-out) His W is down for the next 18 seconds. That means he won't have access to a second Q, nor his E, unless you somehow let him walk up to you. I don't know man. Maybe make his life miserable? Harrass him?

You continue to make it sound like Zed is weak when his W is down. And that you can dodge everything of his, but he can't dodge anything of yours. Otherwise you're a baddie. Where did you pull that logic out of? Q is a VERY short cast time. It's width is probably in line with most mages. It's range is a little shorter. WE isn't hard to land. If he uses his abilities and W's in. He will win an auto battle. You don't just turn around and start fighting him. He W'ed in because he's planning on winning. Not because he wanted to land an auto and thought he'd get away.

Well, it's his and your ability to dodge them, just like any other matchup. It's not like "because I play Zed, I inherently have a better chance at dodging stuff". It's the same thing against anyone, with anyone. Where'd you pull that shit logic?

A very short cast time, is a cast time nonetheless. It's enough to land something. You also use other champions cast times against them. It's a viable lane strategy

WE range is 840 on the tip, just below most of the usual mages abilities, so unless you walk below 600 range of him, it's actually hard to land. And walking into 600 range of any mage would make you eat a whole combo as well

So, you're telling me you have no abilities to hit him with, especially any kind of CC as a mage, while he's probably tanking the minion wave (he used WEQ against you, not to waveclear), or that he shouldn't be rewarded for landing his shit?

And it's not like any other champion goes all-in against you because they plan on losing?

Zed's ult is fine. Zed's E is overall fine Zed needs nerfing to his power in lane. He has almost no weak points other than he is melee. He scales very well. He has all in potential at almost every point in the game. He can outplay almost anyone with his shadows. This is not news either. S3 he had the same problems. People would complain about how he's an assassin that does everything. With no real weakness. This led to his ult getting changed. And a few other tweaks if I recall. Now that the S4 anti-snowball changes are gone and mages that can farm safely forever for 700g are done for. What held him back is gone. A lot of his soft-counters were removed. And those counters were mainly in the lanning phase.

Nerfing his base damages while increasing his scalings, as I suggested, won't nerf his laning phase in what way exactly? Mages who buy an item for 700G, then proceeds to stale the game, and prevent any kind of sieging, until late-game is balanced how exactly?

TL; DR - His lanning phase needs nerfed. The rest of him is fine. At the least this will help shut people up about the mana regen changes. (Which BTW was overall buffed. People are just too used to the old Mana Font and forgot how to manage their mana.)

Which differs from my suggestions how exactly?

CindikleJan 22, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Don't walk into W range? It's 550. Use your abilities to poke instead

Are you telling me to use my mana to farm and harass Zed instead of my autos? Somehow I don't see that working.

You're also not factoring in E's radios. WE will easily match or pass whatever mage you take to mid lane.

He Ws into you, with no cooldowns nor energy (WEQ depletes his pool). Are you spectating yourself? If you were so low that he could just W-E-Q-W-E-AA-Ignite (all this takes, at least, 10 seconds) (there's not a second Q, because he won't have the energy to cast it) at level 3-5, you need to work on your laning phase

QWE takes 165 Energy. 145 if he lands both Q's. That's enough left over to use another E when it comes up. He will regen 40 energy in that time as well. By the time Q is up again he will have 65 energy. He will have to wait 1 second before he can use his Q again.

He's not depleted at all. Only the Q is delayed. If he has 2 ranks into Q this delay is gone. At level 4 he can all in and use Q and E twice without energy problems. At level 5 He will be able to use a 3rd E if the fight even goes on that long.

If you're low on mana and HP, while Zed has enough HP to dive all the minions at levels below 6, or the tower at 6, you need to work on that laning phase of yours

He can't clear a wave with WEQ without AAing, unless he's fed. If you let him AA the remaining minions without taking advantage of his cooldowns (which he used to put said minions at low HP), you're flat out bad

See above

Zed's shadow stays up for 4 seconds. As he's AA'ing to last hit(passive makes it easy) he can W at you when you're near your rnaged minions. This makes it so E hits both sides and Q will likely hit the ranged minions. Giving you your 20 energy refund. For 4 seconds after this you cannot go near that shadow without the risk of being E'd again or having him turn on you. For this duration he can easily focus his AA's and passive to last hitting the melee minions. Even if he doesn't get all of the minions and has to back off, just getting most of them makes it worth it. For 4 seconds he gets to free farm while having very good waveclear, that can double as very good poke on his enemy. He can do this every wave. If you play safe, he will hold on to his W and just last hit freely. There is no good scenario. It's like facing an Annie who has her passive up and has all AD runes/Doran's Blade. But he can W away if there's trouble.

Let's keep the jungler out of this (my mistake on using that argument, as someone else pointed-out) His W is down for the next 18 seconds. That means he won't have access to a second Q, nor his E, unless you somehow let him walk up to you. I don't know man. Maybe make his life miserable? Harrass him?

As stated above. He has a lot of power if he can hold his W and he can do a lot after he cast it. He can easily get most of the minions down. If he over does it this will pus him to tower. And his passive makes farming under tower very very easy while you're overextended. Zed can afford to miss a few minions. Expecting perfect CS is asking too much.

Well, it's his and your ability to dodge them, just like any other matchup. It's not like "because I play Zed, I inherently have a better chance at dodging stuff". It's the same thing against anyone, with anyone. Where'd you pull that shit logic?

Agreed. But you were not making it sound that way at all in your posts. You were stating that if you couldn't dodge Zed's attacks or land your own you were bad. W/E isn't hard to land. And a follow up Q isn't hard either(from the shadow anyway). While Karma's Q for example isn't hard to avoid most of the time. Xerath's abilities are telegraphed. Most mages will go OOM just to keep up with him. While he doesn't have a clear disadvantage in these matchups.

A very short cast time, is a cast time nonetheless. It's enough to land something. You also use other champions cast times against them. It's a viable lane strategy

WE range is 840 on the tip, just below most of the usual mages abilities, so unless you walk below 600 range of him, it's actually hard to land. And walking into 600 range of any mage would make you eat a whole combo as well

W/E is like Ziggs throwing a Q out. But it explodes every time instead of bouncing. But Zed can follow up with his Q.

So, you're telling me you have no abilities to hit him with, especially any kind of CC as a mage, while he's probably tanking the minion wave (he used WEQ against you, not to waveclear), or that he shouldn't be rewarded for landing his shit?

Depends on who we are talking about. Ziggs will bounce Zed away into safety as well. Xerath's stun is weak at close range. Most of these can be side stepped or blocked from minions. And if he can get you to blow it and run away. Even if he doesn't get the kill, that's more mana you burn.

And it's not like any other champion goes all-in against you because they plan on losing?

I'm stating that if he's all-inning you, you're probably already an easy kill.

Nerfing his base damages while increasing his scalings, as I suggested, won't nerf his laning phase in what way exactly? Mages who buy an item for 700G, then proceeds to stale the game, and prevent any kind of sieging, until late-game is balanced how exactly?

Which differs from my suggestions how exactly?

Number nerfs to his damage may help. But it really depends on how much. And really isn't his issue. He barely has to manage his energy. Even if he blows everything as I posted above, he will have a 1 second delay on his second Q. By level 4 this delay is gone.

This wont change the fact he can harass and waveclear very easily in lane. If you nerf his numbers too much he wont even be able to farm. Nerfing numbers in these cases don't always work. The problem is his mechanics in lane. There is almost no way to really punish him.

The other energy users can be punished. Most of them don't have much waveclear. Or have very situational abilities. Kennen is about as close as it gets in playstyle. But he's balanced around the idea he's facing melee up top. He's actually overall weak mid lane. And to waveclear he has to use his mobility and his only harass other than AA that goes through minions. He's as safe as Zed, but he can't freely use his abilities aggressively like Zed and get away with it.

Azirion SolJan 22, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Are you telling me to use my mana to farm and harass Zed instead of my autos? Somehow I don't see that working.

Um, if Zed stands between you and his minions way, either he has an item advantage over you or his jungler is near. Otherwise, you should be punishing him for being there in the first place

You're also not factoring in E's radios. WE will easily match or pass whatever mage you take to mid lane.

Um, no? Shadow Slash: PHYSICAL DAMAGE: 60 / 90 / 120 / 150 / 180 (+ 80% bonus AD) It's maxed second, FYI, and I can name plenty of mages with stronger ratios

QWE takes 165 Energy. 145 if he lands both Q's. That's enough left over to use another E when it comes up. He will regen 40 energy in that time as well. By the time Q is up again he will have 65 energy. He will have to wait 1 second before he can use his Q again.

And then, he's done. 2 Qs, 1 W and 2 Es can be be done by any champion, but it's as much as Zed can do before going OOE and having to wait quite a bit before being able to go back in. I don't quite understand what you really want. You want to cap Zed for a single WEQ rotation every 10+ seconds or something?

Mana users can still continue to use their abilities while Zed has to back off, on top of tanking a whole wave If that doesn't kill Zed, I don't know what will

He's not depleted at all. Only the Q is delayed. If he has 2 ranks into Q this delay is gone. At level 4 he can all in and use Q and E twice without energy problems. At level 5 He will be able to use a 3rd E if the fight even goes on that long.

Still assuming Zed is the engager, meaning he will be tanking a wave for all this time Using a third E means at least 12 seconds of fighting. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't know a single champion that can tank minions, while tanking enemy abilities and surviving that at levels 3-4-5

Zed's shadow stays up for 4 seconds. As he's AA'ing to last hit(passive makes it easy) he can W at you when you're near your rnaged minions. This makes it so E hits both sides and Q will likely hit the ranged minions. Giving you your 20 energy refund. For 4 seconds after this you cannot go near that shadow without the risk of being E'd again or having him turn on you. For this duration he can easily focus his AA's and passive to last hitting the melee minions. Even if he doesn't get all of the minions and has to back off, just getting most of them makes it worth it. For 4 seconds he gets to free farm while having very good waveclear, that can double as very good poke on his enemy. He can do this every wave. If you play safe, he will hold on to his W and just last hit freely. There is no good scenario. It's like facing an Annie who has her passive up and has all AD runes/Doran's Blade. But he can W away if there's trouble.

Again, if he uses abilities on minions, that means an opportunity of harrass without him being able to counter-harrass
You know that you can walk around his shadow, do you?
You can always bait his second W cast by throwing your weakest ability towards him, holding on to your strongest one for when/if he swaps. Or if you have any kind of targeted abilities, just use them?
If you feel the need to play safe, I assume that you'd be playing a late-game/team-oriented mage, in which case, you've won your lane just by farming it

As stated above. He has a lot of power if he can hold his W and he can do a lot after he cast it. He can easily get most of the minions down. If he over does it this will pus him to tower. And his passive makes farming under tower very very easy while you're overextended. Zed can afford to miss a few minions. Expecting perfect CS is asking too much.

You kind of sound like you're repeating yourself. See above

Agreed. But you were not making it sound that way at all in your posts. You were stating that if you couldn't dodge Zed's attacks or land your own you were bad. W/E isn't hard to land. And a follow up Q isn't hard either(from the shadow anyway). While Karma's Q for example isn't hard to avoid most of the time. Xerath's abilities are telegraphed. Most mages will go OOM just to keep up with him. While he doesn't have a clear disadvantage in these matchups.

Well, if your opponent lands his stuff on you while dodging yours, he is, by definition better than you (or has 10ms ping. Whatever floats your boat)

WE is indeed not so hard to land, if you are within 600 range. And in that range, any mainstream mage can combo you for far more damage anyway

I don't see many Karmas anymore, so I can't say much about that As for Xerath, his abilities may be telegraphed, but they have much more range, and with his new passive, he definitly does not have any mana problems. Besides, Xerath isn't really know for his "lane-bulliness", so I don't see why you bring him here

W/E is like Ziggs throwing a Q out. But it explodes every time instead of bouncing. But Zed can follow up with his Q.

Ziggs doesn't use his escape when throwing Qs, for one, and his Qs hit much harder than Zeds E Ziggs can also follow up with his mines to slow Zeds retreat while dealing damage to him, while Zed tanks the wave, while Ziggs gets further away with his satchel charges and AAs Zed with his passive

Depends on who we are talking about. Ziggs will bounce Zed away into safety as well. Xerath's stun is weak at close range. Most of these can be side stepped or blocked from minions. And if he can get you to blow it and run away. Even if he doesn't get the kill, that's more mana you burn.

Ziggs can aim his satchel to throw both Zed and himself into his own turret. Not exactly hard to do when Zed blinked right next to you after WEQW'ing. Same outcome as every other CC. Not hard to land when your target is right next to you, using his mobility to come there

I'm stating that if he's all-inning you, you're probably already an easy kill.

Just like what would happen with any other assassin

Number nerfs to his damage may help. But it really depends on how much. And really isn't his issue. He barely has to manage his energy. Even if he blows everything as I posted above, he will have a 1 second delay on his second Q. By level 4 this delay is gone.

That second Q cost him the remaining of his energy. What do you do with that? You do what you do against any other lane. You countdown cooldowns, keep an eye on their energy/mana levels, harrass when they're down, focus on dodging when they're up

Opponent wasted abilities to waveclear? Free harrass/zoning Opponent all-ins you? Counter-all-in with the help of minions

This wont change the fact he can harass and waveclear very easily in lane. If you nerf his numbers too much he wont even be able to farm. Nerfing numbers in these cases don't always work. The problem is his mechanics in lane. There is almost no way to really punish him.

Nerfing numbers doesn't nerf his harrass and waveclear how, exactly? Base damage nerfs directly means laning power nerfs, both at his harrass and waveclear, both of which you're focusing on

Besides, I don't know how many times do I need to repeat this, but he does not, read, not clear a wave with only a WEQE combo. There are AAs in there, and if you can't punish him for doing that, you're flat out bad

The other energy users can be punished. Most of them don't have much waveclear. Or have very situational abilities. Kennen is about as close as it gets in playstyle. But he's balanced around the idea he's facing melee up top. He's actually overall weak mid lane. And to waveclear he has to use his mobility and his only harass other than AA that goes through minions. He's as safe as Zed, but he can't freely use his abilities aggressively like Zed and get away with it.

1.1) For the power Akali gets at level 6, and later on, she should be punished harder, actually 1.2) Can't say much about Shen, except that he holds the potential to taunt a whole team in the right circumstances, or 2-3 targets most of the time. Basically, hard CC and a 900HP global shield comes at a price 1.3) As for Kennen, an ultimate that can stun a whole team should, once again, come at a price. Besides, I don't know why he isn't picked against assassins in mid lane. He's one of the harder matchups for them

Being safe and aggressively using everything does not go hand-in-hand with Zed either

Going through all this, I'm starting to think that you never played Zed ever, let alone against competent opponents So, I'll say the same thing to you as I say anyone "whining about him"/"requesting unnecessary nerfs/changes". Play 50 games with him and you'll see if has weaknesses or not

Doctor DymentJan 22, 20151 votes

This is cute. What you two have. It really is fun, watching you defend this champion who obviously has just a bit wrong with him. Not too much, just a bit. Really is funny. Like watching two morons scream at each other about who's the better video game character on the playground.

Azirion SolJan 22, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Doctor Dyment,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xE6PdjmF,comment-id=00020000000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-22T04:59:09.325+0000)

This is cute. What you two have. It really is fun, watching you defend this champion who obviously has just a bit wrong with him. Not too much, just a bit. Really is funny. Like watching two morons scream at each other about who's the better video game character on the playground.

Two fellas having a discussion is cute now?

Neeko níco nííJan 22, 20152 votes

Uhm actually he's kinda right... You defend something undefendable atm. He is by far the srongest laner, if he doesn't sukk, or get countered in everything. There might be some champs that can survive the lane or even win it, but most of the time it needs this person more skill(or more jungler:P). Then again it doesn't matter, he is just able to stay def use his 2 "range" abilties and stay under his tower... ofc you can do the same with ziggs, but this guy wont 1shot your adc as easy.

FistOfSharkieshaJan 21, 20158 votes

Oh my 5 seconds!!! While all the mages with comparable burst or waveclear have 12 second cooldowns and just wasted 400 mana to do the same thing he did.

Azirion SolJan 21, 20156 votes

4 seconds with absolutely nothing 5th second, gets his E 6th second, gets his Q 18th fucking second, gets his W

I don't know if you can read, but his burst comes from double Qs with point-blank W-E combo. So without W, he doesn't have access to half of his damage for the next 18 seconds

Besides, he is definitly not clearing a whole wave with only W-E-Q. If you let him AA the low HP minions after that and call that a free waveclear, you're flat out bad

Vegas DadJan 21, 20152 votes

{quoted}

4 seconds with absolutely nothing 5th second, gets his E 6th second, gets his Q 18th fucking second, gets his W

I don't know if you can read, but his burst comes from double Qs with point-blank W-E combo. So without W, he doesn't have access to half of his damage for the next 18 seconds

Besides, he is definitly not clearing a whole wave with only W-E-Q. If you let him AA the low HP minions after that and call that a free waveclear, you're flat out bad

Actually no you are bad for ever using your W to farm in the first place unless you are certain you wont need it again for 18 seconds and that will will wip the wave and not have to walk up to attack the low hp minions if any are even there because he actually just CLEARS THE WAVE.

Azirion SolJan 21, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vegas Dad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xE6PdjmF,comment-id=00020000000100000000,timestamp=2015-01-21T22:21:16.778+0000)

Actually no you are bad for ever using your W to farm in the first place unless you are certain you wont need it again for 18 seconds and that will will wip the wave and not have to walk up to attack the low hp minions if any are even there because he actually just CLEARS THE WAVE.

Dude's talking about waveclear, so I answer about waveclear And I don't know where you get enough damage to clear a whole wave, with only WEQ at level 3

A fed Zed clears the wave with only WEQE and AAing the 1-2 minions left A fed Syndra clears a whole wave, cannon included, with a single QWE

At this point of the game, she doesn't really have mana problems, especially when fed, unlike Zed, who goes OOE after clearing the wave

D1rtFarmerJan 21, 20153 votes

but it comes right the fck back man.. get real and stfu.

It Is I EmotoJan 21, 20153 votes

The problem is, even if he hits multiple minions with it, it's not working like Caitlyns Q, meaning it still does a good amount of damage, even if it goes through multiple targets (though the first target gets alot of damage lmao)

Azirion SolJan 21, 20155 votes

As far as I know it, Caitlyn's Q has 1.5 times the range of Zeds and only loses 50% of it's damage at most. Zed loses 60% of his damage after the second target

Yes, Zeds Q does much more damage, but he's an assassin. He's supposed to

It Is I EmotoJan 21, 20154 votes

Well, Zeds Q still outdamages Caitlyns Q if it's going through multiple targets. as well at rank one, Zeds Q does alot of damage, and even with 60% less base damage and 40% less scale damage, it allows him to clear waves pretty fast. and his E, being on a 4 second cooldown allows him too to be quite good at pushing/clearing minions waves.

Azirion SolJan 21, 201510 votes

Caitlyn still has access to 650 range AAs. Stop comparing apples to oranges

Vegas DadJan 21, 20155 votes

{quoted}

"Crazy waveclear" means he has no cooldowns at all for the next 5 seconds, no shadow for the next 18 and no energy for the next 10. I don't know about you, but that screams "all-in time" for me, especially after level 6. Bait his R, proceed to get freelo

Is standing behind minions too hard for you? Or, you know, sidestepping? Or throwing some poke of your own?

wait 5 whole seconds before the next rotation begins OH THE HORROR. Hey you are right though because during that short window is exactly when all zeds walk up to punch you in the face so you can ALL IN THEM RAWR YEE HAW!!!!

Wait....that is when they all back off so you have no possible hope of reaching them with anything.

Seriously guy do you beleive the non sense you post?

Azirion SolJan 21, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vegas Dad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xE6PdjmF,comment-id=000200000003,timestamp=2015-01-21T22:18:15.201+0000)

wait 5 whole seconds before the next rotation begins OH THE HORROR. Hey you are right though because during that short window is exactly when all zeds walk up to punch you in the face so you can ALL IN THEM RAWR YEE HAW!!!!

Wait....that is when they all back off so you have no possible hope of reaching them with anything.

Seriously guy do you beleive the non sense you post?

Whole rotation Next 5 seconds

Pick one mate. 18 seconds on W makes that mathematically impossible, his E is point-blank and his Q is 6 seconds, which is more than most standard mages

If he used W towards you to poke with QE, he doesn't have it to run away If he keeps it to escape, he can only poke with Q, after which you shouldn't let him CS for a while or, you know, take advantage of a cooldown, like you're supposed to do against anyone

AlorasenceJan 22, 20153 votes

Whatever dude, Zed's farming ability is obscene and you know it.
Yes. When he deleted my fucking minions in two button presses. I'd also really like to be able to dodge the stupid missile speed on his q....

That'd be nice.

Azirion SolJan 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Whatever dude, Zed's farming ability is obscene and you know it.

Yes. When he deleted my fucking minions in two button presses. I'd also really like to be able to dodge the stupid missile speed on his q....

That'd be nice.

Very clear and concise explanation. Good job!
Learn the fucking game? No Zed ever deletes a wave with only WEQ, unless it's past 10 minutes or he's fed, in which case, any champion can do the same

Sidestepping is too hard? I guess you get hit by every Nidalee spear, Xerath Q, Leona E or any other shit?

AlorasenceJan 22, 20153 votes

Ooh. Burn.

It's almost cute watching you defend your champion.

Azirion SolJan 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Ooh. Burn.

It's almost cute watching you defend your champion.

Another excellent argument, showcasing your comprehension of the game and your knowledge about other champions kits

AlorasenceJan 22, 20151 votes

Way to prove his point "Zedtastic"....

Drunk RummateJan 22, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Ooh. Burn.

It's almost cute watching you defend your champion.

its funny how he makes a thread pretending that he wants to balance zed, but anyone who doesnt agree with his particular solution gets insulted and told that zed is in a perfectly fine state.

AmightyTJan 22, 20151 votes

Or throwing some poke of your own?

With the way mana regen is right now? hahahahahahahaha

OgaflowJan 21, 20152 votes

{quoted}

his ability to assassinate and escape is not the problem. it's his absurd dominance in lane due to being energy based with crazy waveclear and poke

This right here is Zeds issue. He can choose to never do his role of assassin til late game by farming without risk and then simply split push and 1v1 anyone late game. Between the passive execute on hitting minions and the shuriken dealing really good AoE damage to the minion wave from range makes him too safe. If Riot could add more reduction in damage to additional targets hit by shurikens and remove the passive from working on minions I feel Zed would be fine. He could still duel anyone late game 1v1 and he still has the all in assassination playstyle. He just has to work a little harder and play a little riskier to do so like a proper assassin should.

Mooing KevJan 21, 20156 votes

My take as a zed main is bloody leave him alone and bring back the old mana regen so all these mage mains will stop crying about energy users/ no mana users. Hell buff blue buff mana regen to make them even more happy. Zed hasn't been buffed significantly for over a year and has never changed in his purpose: kill one guy maybe two and get out.

Azirion SolJan 21, 20155 votes

Or that. But GD, 99% of the time (Lee Sin being the 1%?), gets his way on "balancing" things

BoulderoxJan 21, 20154 votes

{quoted}

My take as a zed main is bloody leave him alone and bring back the old mana regen so all these mage mains will stop crying about energy users/ no mana users.** Hell buff blue buff mana regen to make them even more happy.** Zed hasn't been buffed significantly for over a year and has never changed in his purpose: kill one guy maybe two and get out.

yes, cus the jungle isn't hard at all without mid ripping you a new one demanding blue cus "I need it to be viable"

Mooing KevJan 21, 20153 votes

{quoted}

yes, cus the jungle isn't hard at all without mid ripping you a new one demanding blue cus "I need it to be viable"

Thats why i say bring back old mana regen? The blue mana regen buff is just a suggestion for people who think the old mana regen isn't good enough either.

BoulderoxJan 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Thats why i say bring back old mana regen? The blue mana regen buff is just a suggestion for people who think the old mana regen isn't good enough either.

oh no, i'm fine with you there, just the part about buffing blue buff was my only problem

DanofDemaciaJan 21, 20152 votes

I'd just give him mana for less spamming and get rid of his untargetability. Also that cool Down thing you said.

Azirion SolJan 21, 20153 votes

Zed without untargetability is called getting gutted. It's tied to his Ultimate, not on his basic abilities, like the fucking sushi, so it's fine as it is. Learn to not waste your whole rotation before he uses it

And no. Zed with mana would be the opposite of a nerf. Trust me, you don't want him to be mana based Yes, it'll nerf his laning phase, but good luck after that

DanofDemaciaJan 21, 20153 votes

Mana late game on an assassin doesn't matter since they one shot everything. The landing phase is the whole point. And I disagree untargetability needs to go in general no just zeds everyone's.

Kuroi86Jan 21, 20153 votes

Except item 2041 & item 2004 exist. And with mana now on his kit item 3057 is now viable. His laning phase is only slightly tougher now with managing mana as opposed to managing energy, of course once he finishes any item or surpases lvl 8 mana is no longer an issue and he can waste you at all points in the game freely.

And the removal of his untargetability means his death mark is applied instantly and he's on top of you faster than Talon. Congrats, you just took away your best chance to try and counter Zed, you're now dead because the lack of untargetability means Zed has to go in instantly, which leaves you no room to fight back, GG.

It Is I EmotoJan 21, 20151 votes

well.. it'd be neat, though He's a ninja, and riot will not change that from his identity :P tho like Most akalis build Lich bane, without worrying about the extra mana on it lmao

Vegas DadJan 21, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Zed without untargetability is called getting gutted. It's tied to his Ultimate, not on his basic abilities, like the fucking sushi, so it's fine as it is. Learn to not waste your whole rotation before he uses it

And no. Zed with mana would be the opposite of a nerf. Trust me, you don't want him to be mana based Yes, it'll nerf his laning phase, but good luck after that

actually no it isnt gutted, it is called playing the same game as the rest of us. Sorry but i dislike bad players like you who crutch on broken stuff. Don't worry though if they do gut zed, there will be a couple other brainless no skill champs for you to pick up so you can pretend you are good at this game.

Azirion SolJan 21, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vegas Dad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xE6PdjmF,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2015-01-21T22:24:50.324+0000)

actually no it isnt gutted, it is called playing the same game as the rest of us. Sorry but i dislike bad players like you who crutch on broken stuff. Don't worry though if they do gut zed, there will be a couple other brainless no skill champs for you to pick up so you can pretend you are good at this game.

An example of a good player would be you, I assume?

Besides, I'll definitly agree on removing his invulnerability so that they would give him an instant blink behind the target, instead of a 0.75 seconds untargetable dash

And why am I not surprised that you never played Zed, not even once? Because I have morals, I don't abuse freelo-shit. I guess?