Zed mid is so awful to play against

Broloft·Dec 29, 2015·71 votes·6,239 views

They all get a hexdrinker on first back and become basically unburstable How are you going to harass a zed with hexdrinker if you know you'll never be able to finish him off? When in retaliation during any trade he can ult you and finish you off just like that? How is it fair for an assassin to buy invincibility for ~1300 gold and being unkillable while everyone bitches that somehow MR itemization is bad?

Anther 1400 gold and they can buy QSS with another 30 MR and a cleanse so now yu can't burst Zed nor can you CC him "Mr items so bad" right Meanwhile what do mages get to build against sustained AD harass/burst like zed? A 1200 armor/AP item that doesn't at all solve their mana prblems? K.

113 Comments

VekknaDec 29, 201517 votes

Zed would be fine if he was focused more around assassinating with an ult combo. Right now he pokes with Q way too fucking hard for being manaless and just uses R for guaranteed kills. His Q shouldn't be out-poking mana-hungry mages early on.

NarasimhaDec 29, 20154 votes

Why not? It's really his only tool to actually do anything. Think about it. He's the only assassin with a delay on his burst. If you're low enough to where he can kill you without his ult, then it doesn't matter because any other champion could do the same. And if he uses his ult, then he's just used the assassin ult with the MOST counterplay in the game. Seriously. He deserves what strengths he has because as an assassin, he's not even guaranteed his job.

VekknaDec 30, 20151 votes

You're hitting the crack pipe if you think Death Mark has more counterplay than Death Lotus. Zhonya's and hard cc are counters to almost every champ (almost because Rengar); it's not some special weakness that Zed has above and beyond everyone else.

Zed has a 3 second delay on his detonation. Fizz's ult has a travel time and a 1.5 second delay. Kat has a 2.5 second interruptible channel in a small aoe. What you're saying is just objectively false.

It's complete and total bullshit that people repeat this nonsense about Zed's super-special unique "counterplay" and weakness to Zhonya's. The only reason Zhonya's has any special relationship to Zed is because it's essentially required to avoid dying. The Zed/Zhonya's association exists because there is no other reliable counterplay available.

You're missing the point, which is that Zed's ulti is not the problem. Too much power on his Q and W is why he's a completely broken, unbalanced laner. For example, there's no rational reason for his Q to start at 75 base damage on a 6 second cooldown with no meaningful resource investment. By comparison:

Zed's Q - 6 sec CD, 900 range, 75+37.5 from second hit LB's Q - 6 sec CD, 700 range, 50 mana, 55+55 from second hit Akali's Q - 6 sec CD, 600 range, 35+45, requires melee hit to detonate mark Ahri's Q - 7 sec CD, 65 mana, 880 range, 40+40, requires 2 hits Zyra's Q - 7 sec CD, 75 mana, 800 range, 70 after .625 sec delay Kat's Q - 10 sec CD, 625 range, 60+15, requires melee hit to detonate mark

Now, I realize that comparisons aren't popular because you have to take an entire kit into account. Cross referencing between this selection of champs pretty much demonstrates that his Q is grossly overpowered in lane relative to other champs. Compared to assassins with the same CD, Zed's Q is aoe and does not require a second hit. Compared to Qs with similar damage, Zed's Q has a longer range, lower cost, and less delay. Compared to Kat's no-resource aoe Q, Zed's Q has a 40% shorter CD, longer range, and doesn't require a second hit. Compared to skillshots, Zed's Q has a longer range, less counterplay, and lower cost.

The problem only gets worse from there when you account for Zed's advantage via early mpen/arpen discrepancy, mages' mana tax and speed tax, other melee assassins' comparatively poor farming. All of those disparities are multiplied by Zed's W and R at level 6.

The issue with Zed is that his ulti doesn't do enough damage on its own. It has no base damage, a 1.0 AD ratio, and copies and % of the damage from his other abilities. Its functionality comes from it's "get in and get back out" mobility, but its damage depends on Zed's other abilities being far too strong.

What Riot needs to do with Zed is this:

Q: Lower base damage to 55, scaling cooldown from 9-5 sec, reduce scaling energy cost to 70-50 W: The shadow functions like Pix casting Glitterlance. It's an extra chance to hit in a larger area/range, but enemies can only be damaged by one ability. Zed's E already works this way. Cooldown reduced by X when the shadow damages a champion. E: Lower base damage to 45 R: Cooldown reduced to 100/80/60. Add high base damage on application (like 200/400/600), Zed and shadows can damage targets with the same abilities and deal 75% of the ability damage on the second hit for 10 seconds. (Numbers subject to tuning, obvs)

Basically what this does is bring Zed's laning within the limits imposed on every other mid laner. He's less oppressive in lane but has a stronger assassination combo if well-executed. It's more counterplay overall and gives Zed a longer window to play around a Zhonya's on his ult proc with less dependence on the proc itself (because of the initial damage). Lastly, lower CDs and energy costs late game and some sustained damage options on his ult would help shift some early game dominance to mid/late game relevance.

fééd l0rdJan 1, 20163 votes

{quoted}

You're hitting the crack pipe if you think Death Mark has more counterplay than Death Lotus. Zhonya's and hard cc are counters to almost every champ (almost because Rengar); it's not some special weakness that Zed has above and beyond everyone else.

Zed has a 3 second delay on his detonation. Fizz's ult has a travel time and a 1.5 second delay. Kat has a 2.5 second interruptible channel in a small aoe. What you're saying is just objectively false.

It's complete and total bullshit that people repeat this nonsense about Zed's super-special unique "counterplay" and weakness to Zhonya's. The only reason Zhonya's has any special relationship to Zed is because it's essentially required to avoid dying. The Zed/Zhonya's association exists because there is no other reliable counterplay available.

The fair thing about Fizz and Zed? Their burst isn't instant. How can you cry about Zed's ult when there is Rengar and Talon? They will jump at you and you are dead even before you can press Zhonias lol.

You're missing the point, which is that Zed's ulti is not the problem. Too much power on his Q and W is why he's a completely broken, unbalanced laner. For example, there's no rational reason for his Q to start at 75 base damage on a 6 second cooldown with no meaningful resource investment. By comparison:

Zed's Q - 6 sec CD, 900 range, 75+37.5 from second hit LB's Q - 6 sec CD, 700 range, 50 mana, 55+55 from second hit Akali's Q - 6 sec CD, 600 range, 35+45, requires melee hit to detonate mark Ahri's Q - 7 sec CD, 65 mana, 880 range, 40+40, requires 2 hits Zyra's Q - 7 sec CD, 75 mana, 800 range, 70 after .625 sec delay Kat's Q - 10 sec CD, 625 range, 60+15, requires melee hit to detonate mark

Lb's q is point and click, why should it deal more damage? Also all of her abilities are dealing damage, Zed's not. Akali's is also point and click and it's hard to itimize against cause mixed damage Ahri has true damage.. anything more to say? It also doesn't lose damage when it goes through targets. Zyra is bad Kat isn't made about her basic abilties. She is made about her passive and ultimate.

Zed depends on his shuriken. You don't like their damage? Dodge them. You are too bad to dodge them? Atleast stay behind a minion or two minion till you get good :)

Now, I realize that comparisons aren't popular because you have to take an entire kit into account. Cross referencing between this selection of champs pretty much demonstrates that his Q is grossly overpowered in lane relative to other champs. Compared to assassins with the same CD, Zed's Q is aoe and does not require a second hit. Compared to Qs with similar damage, Zed's Q has a longer range, lower cost, and less delay. Compared to Kat's no-resource aoe Q, Zed's Q has a 40% shorter CD, longer range, and doesn't require a second hit. Compared to skillshots, Zed's Q has a longer range, less counterplay, and lower cost.

The problem only gets worse from there when you account for Zed's advantage via early mpen/arpen discrepancy, mages' mana tax and speed tax, other melee assassins' comparatively poor farming. All of those disparities are multiplied by Zed's W and R at level 6.

The issue with Zed is that his ulti doesn't do enough damage on its own. It has no base damage, a 1.0 AD ratio, and copies and % of the damage from his other abilities. Its functionality comes from it's "get in and get back out" mobility, but its damage depends on Zed's other abilities being far too strong.

What Riot needs to do with Zed is this:

Q: Lower base damage to 55, scaling cooldown from 9-5 sec, reduce scaling energy cost to 70-50 W: The shadow functions like Pix casting Glitterlance. It's an extra chance to hit in a larger area/range, but enemies can only be damaged by one ability. Zed's E already works this way. Cooldown reduced by X when the shadow damages a champion. E: Lower base damage to 45 R: Cooldown reduced to 100/80/60. Add high base damage on application (like 200/400/600), Zed and shadows can damage targets with the same abilities and deal 75% of the ability damage on the second hit for 10 seconds. (Numbers subject to tuning, obvs)

Basically what this does is bring Zed's laning within the limits imposed on every other mid laner. He's less oppressive in lane but has a stronger assassination combo if well-executed. It's more counterplay overall and gives Zed a longer window to play around a Zhonya's on his ult proc with less dependence on the proc itself (because of the initial damage). Lastly, lower CDs and energy costs late game and some sustained damage options on his ult would help shift some early game dominance to mid/late game relevance.

I repeat it again, Zed is supposed to annihilate mages and nearly everyone on midlane. Zed means lane dominance but also a risky pick cause he will fall of as soon as his opponents will go for Zhonias, QSS, high amounts of armor, OR they completly counterpick him in champion selection (Kayle, Lissandra, Zilean etc.). Don't pick a mage into Zed. Go for Cho, or Yasuo, Fizz, Talon, Kat or something else. Dodge his spells and you'll be fine.

Spizzle9000Jan 1, 20161 votes

Yasuo is actually relatively weak against Zed imo. The rest of it is true, but he really stomps Yasuo unless it's a really good one.

Spizzle9000Dec 30, 20154 votes

He is an early/mid game champion and he falls off late game unless he's super ahead. He is supposed to be very strong early game. His kit is focused around assassinating with his ult combo once he starts roaming, and if you nerfed his Q, you would nerf his ability to assassinate with an ult combo, which is what you think he should be focused around. If his Q were nerfed, then his early game would be much weaker. A meh early game, a strong mid game, and a shitty late game. That would be pretty bad for balance, so his AD ratios on his Q would have to be buffed in compensation and his % damage on his R would have to be buffed.

At least I think so. I don't know much about balance, but if you nerf one part of his kit, you nerf his entire ability to assassinate. Mana-hungry mages are supposed to have a bad early game, so he really should be out-poking them.

Tik115Dec 30, 20151 votes

The problem with Zed is he has far too few weaknesses that normally gate an assassin.

Mana? He's an energy champion and his Q energy cost is refunded by the time his next Q is ready Poor pushing skills? Having to sacrifice his damage moves to kill minions? Not with his passive and his W - E Easy to poke down/Short range poke? W - Q - E Damage locked up in 1 skill? not when his lowest scaling skill is 80% bonus AD and his W passive giving him free power AND his passive dealing % Max health damage Easy to itemise against? He was till they increased hourglass price and buffed Yommus No escapes? His ult blink back range is unlimited, he could chase you from mid lane to the inhib and still blink back and his W has a low CD of 17 seconds

The issue on him falling off late game is debatable, his base AD at level 18 is around the average, infact only 3 other assassins have higher AD then him, LB (wat) Kat (wat) and Akali (kinda wat) but the big thing that to me makes his late game good still is his W passive and base passive, lets say a Full build Zed has this as his final build item 3156 item 3072 item 1331 item 3142 item 3071 item 3031 his W passive alone gives him (give or take) 78 more damage, he gains over 3k worth of free AD on TOP of his passive dealing up to 8% of a targets max HP as bonus magic damage, compared to say Shaco who has most of his Assassiness in his Q Zed has enough in his AAs alone to not "Fall off"

and thats really the reason Zeds a problem to play against, other assassins have weaknesses, LB its shoving to her tower, Talon it's poking down, Fizz, baiting the E and staying back, Kat Shove and poke but Zed doesn't have these weaknesses nearly as much so he is never fun to play against, hell outside of TF because of the teleport pressure there is no point in picking any assassin mid other then Zed because he doesn't suffer the weaknesses other assassins face.

Spizzle9000Dec 31, 20152 votes

The problem is, a Zed can rarely build that much AD. Usually they have to build a BoRK over a Bloodthirster, which is a loss of a good chunk of AD.

One of the major weaknesses Zed has is his own strength: any team with half a brain will focus Zed to death, which makes him more or less irrelevant late game during a team fight. He is so strong because he's more difficult than most assassins and has a feast or famine play style. Not as much as some others, but if he does poorly in lane, he'll be borderline useless most of the game.

His AAs are valuable in late game especially, but he actually has to be able to get to the enemy and stay alive long enough to use them. He'll be CCd to hell and back almost always, which is why they removed the delay on blinking back to his ult's shadow.

Zed is more a jack of all trades assassin then others. LB is more mobile than Zed (cause of the shorter CDs and stuff) and has better burst, as well as her passive. Talon has a stealth and almost instant burst as well. Fizz has his E AND the ability to build Zhonya's, plus a knockup on his ult. Kat has the AoE damage and the resets, as well as a shorter CD on her ult.

I don't know why, but I've always enjoyed playing against Zeds. He is fairly easy to counter and rather predictable. He doesn't suffer the weaknesses other assassins face, but he also doesn't have the strengths. I honestly don't see why people hate playing against him so much (other than the fact that some people like playing squishy, immobile mids). A Zhonya's will negate most of his damage, unlike any other assassin. He has to be really close to do any damage and his ult can put him in sticky situations if you don't know when to use it. In order to AA late game and actually contribute to team fights, he has to be very close and personal, which allows him to easily be focused down.

Basically, he doesn't have any of the major weaknesses other assassins do, but he doesn't have their major strengths either.

Tik115Dec 31, 20151 votes

This may be true but as it's been shown a Jack of all trades champion will not only be more powerful but more useful then master of one champions

Take Lee and Thresh, they are both jack of all trades Jungle and supports respectivly yet the "Master of none" doesn't matter much when you can fit into any comp and do nearly every role, this is a problem because they have made many of the champions for that role irrelevent unless the champions in said role are borderline OP ( Elise ) or they bring champions not normally doing the role in Poppy Trundle

Zed being a jack of all assassins is a BAD thing his very pick makes a huge chunk of mid lane champs useless and sure he won't be as mobile as a LB or as teamfighty as Kat but the fact he warps the assassin role (Not even the mid lane the entire assassin ROLE) is anything but a good thing.

Also I'd like the point out the "Everyone focus Zed" is a tactic that is true for ANY none tank champion so I don't think it could be considered justification for this.

Spizzle9000Dec 31, 20151 votes

Honestly, Zed, Thresh, Lee Sin, Riven, Vayne, and probably more champions I can't remember are just absolutely adored by Riot. They tend to keep them on top. I will concede that Zed is pretty damn strong, but I do believe that people really overrate his strengths. Most of the people (not all, and not the logical ones, such as you) who complain about him are raging about how hard it is to play against Zed as a mana-hungry, weak early game, immobile mage.

Tik115Jan 1, 20161 votes

It's no secret that Riot plays favorites, Scrapping Riven and Lee's Rework but going through with Karma/Cass/Sona's Nerfing swain the second he became viable but leaving Yas untouched minus a mastery hotfix, the memorable -3 AD Vayne nerf, but the thing is that the ones they tend to hate are the ones that counter their favorites.

Sej countered Lee, Nerfed Sion/GP did well vs Riven, Nerfed Draven outtraded vayne, Nerfed

The issue here is that yes Zed should be effective against high mana, low mobility scaling mages BUT the issue arrives when his counters are far too weak,

Lissandras damage falls off HARD Kayle takes far too long to get going compared to Zed (Kayle needs like 3-4 items, Zed only needs half to a full item) Malz's damage output is too low even when fed and his ult is too easy to counter Vladamir is weaker after the WoTA nerf

And the thing is due to Riot playing favorites they won't WANT to buff his counters

Spizzle9000Jan 1, 20161 votes

Most definitely. Lissandra could use a new passive and better late game damage. Malz didn't really need that nerf to his W and Vladimir seems mediocre of late. Not good, not bad. But, the problem is, no one plays him mid. He's trash mid because of how many long range poke mages there are, versus top lane where he outranges almost everyone.

Tik115Jan 1, 20161 votes

See this is the point I'm getting at (And which also adds to the OPs post)

Zed IS awful to play against now but he's awful due to his design making him a jack of all trades assassin (Which in this game the master of none part doesn't apply due to sheer flexibility, its why outside of Rengar (Who lets face it is a little too strong right now) he's the most commonly seen assassin) and his counters are far too weak and will probity stay weak for a very long time due to playing favorites.

fééd l0rdJan 1, 20161 votes

{quoted}

It's no secret that Riot plays favorites, Scrapping Riven and Lee's Rework but going through with Karma/Cass/Sona's Nerfing swain the second he became viable but leaving Yas untouched minus a mastery hotfix, the memorable -3 AD Vayne nerf, but the thing is that the ones they tend to hate are the ones that counter their favorites.

Sej countered Lee, Nerfed Sion/GP did well vs Riven, Nerfed Draven outtraded vayne, Nerfed ??? Sejuani and Sion were too strong during the prime time of cinderhulk. They had to be nerfed, this has nothing to do with Riven. Same goes for GP, he was one of the most wanted picks during worlds. When got Draven got nerfed again? He still outtrades a Vayne EASILY if played properly. Get your shit straight and stop crying dude.

The issue here is that yes Zed should be effective against high mana, low mobility scaling mages BUT the issue arrives when his counters are far too weak,

Lissandras damage falls off HARD Kayle takes far too long to get going compared to Zed (Kayle needs like 3-4 items, Zed only needs half to a full item) Malz's damage output is too low even when fed and his ult is too easy to counter Vladamir is weaker after the WoTA nerf

And the thing is due to Riot playing favorites they won't WANT to buff his counters

You obviously don't get how to play against Zed. Pick Exhaust, Farm safely, start with cloth armor and don't feed. Most mages will outscale him. Zed was extremely weak during s5 and got nerfed multiple times during s5. Why isn't he allowed to be strong again?

Tik115Jan 2, 20161 votes

Having a champion be strong is fine.

Having a champion be strong while their counters are very weak is not, if Lissandra, Kayle, Malz or ANY of his counters were a viable pick then sure let him be strong, but they arn't, if you look all his counters have seen nerf after nerf, not to mention their items have been nerfed, Zed meanwhile is planned to get buffs AND there planning a new assassin item, this combination means we could be seeing Zed become the new Cinderhulk Sejuani.

Also, "Exhaust, Cloth 5" heres the thing, Exhaust has a long CD, and in terms of item start a mage can't go Cloth 5, they don't have close to enough mana regen to go cloth 5 unlike many other roles they NEED the Doran ring to keep ahead, Cloth 5 would only work if you took a tank mid which won't work, the team now lacks AP damage, the tank can't out push zed and the Zed can happily roam knowing this.

You want Zed to be strong? Let his counter picks be strong and we won't have a problem

DarthSpectrumDec 30, 201513 votes

Most mages have difficulties dealing with Zed. You should try some other champions that do not have any disadvantages against Zed.

Most AP Assassins can beat Zed in lane: Diana - Diana can shield Zed's damage and win a fight due to her faster combo. Fizz - Fizz can E to avoid Death Mark. As well, if Zed does not have his ultimate, Fizz can get free poke on Zed even under tower by using W - Q, AA - E. Fizz will avoid the tower shot and any retaliation besides maybe an AA or E from Zed. Viktor - Viktor struggles against Zed a bit early on. However, Viktor's W can turn Zed's shadow against Zed. As well, late game Viktor can 100-0 Zed far faster than Zed can 100-0 Viktor. Morgana - Black Shield yourself and Bind Zed when he Death Marks you. Kayle - Ult yourself Chogath - Cho can out sustain Zed's poke in lane. As well, he will beat Zed in an all in due to his silence. Galio - He can't do much to Zed, but Zed will have no chance to kill him in lane either. In a team fight, Zed will not be able to Death Mark anyone with Galio around.

Just play any of these champions, and you will find that Zed is surprisingly easy to deal with.

YumaS2AstralDec 30, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Most mages have difficulties dealing with Zed. You should try some other champions that do not have any disadvantages against Zed.

Most AP Assassins can beat Zed in lane: - Diana can shield Zed's damage and win a fight due to her faster combo. - Fizz can E to avoid Death Mark. As well, if Zed does not have his ultimate, Fizz can get free poke on Zed even under tower by using W - Q, AA - E. Fizz will avoid the tower shot and any retaliation besides maybe an AA or E from Zed. - Viktor struggles against Zed a bit early on. However, Viktor's W can turn Zed's shadow against Zed. As well, late game Viktor can 100-0 Zed far faster than Zed can 100-0 Viktor. - Black Shield yourself and Bind Zed when he Death Marks you. - Ult yourself - Cho can out sustain Zed's poke in lane. As well, he will beat Zed in an all in due to his silence. - He can't do much to Zed, but Zed will have no chance to kill him in lane either. In a team fight, Zed will not be able to Death Mark anyone with Galio around.

Just play any of these champions, and you will find that Zed is surprisingly easy to deal with.

Vladimir - Can sustain Zed's poke, his poll will make Vlad avoid the Death Mark, he becomes pretty tanky for Zed to deal with later in the game. The only way for Zed to win this is to take advantage of Vlad's awful early game. Vlad still has the tools to survive, however.

Akali - She can outtrade Zed and can afford to rush a Zhonya if needed.

ReposerDec 30, 20152 votes

Ekko - Has his W, if you play it right you can stun him as soon as he lands on you with his ult. Plus, your ult will basically negate his in pure damage, and if he sticks onto you to damage you can use it to kill him, possibly.

Kassadin - It's not the best of match ups in laning, but you can do some tricky stuff with him. If you play fairly safe and don't give him kills to work with, you can usually survive decently well due to rushing RoA, when he starts getting ballsy. Stay within close enough range to the tower so that you can riftwalk under it, so if he ults you, then he'll be forced under tower to fight you. Plus, you'll be stronger late game than he will be, since you have the AoE damage and can easily kill multiple people, with a lower gate on your ultimate.

Lissandra - Works pretty well against him if they play it right, due to their innate Zhonya. However, a somewhat difficult lane earlier in. You can also snare him if he stays close long enough, and try to burst him down from there, since he'll be stuck w/o shadows for a bit of time.

Ryze - Works very well against him, as long as you know how to play him. Your snare is a point and click, so obviously that can stop up Zed easily on its own. But on top of that, you actually want Zed to go in on you, because he generally outranges with his Q or W-Q combo. Try to keep two or three passive stacks up with your Q at all times, when you get some mana, so you can get it procced ASAP when he goes in. Do be wary of the early game however, as Ryze is weak until he's decently stacked tear and has at least Catalyst.

Malzahar - Ult. Don't give Zed anything to work with early, so he doesn't get too powerful. Eventually he will build QSS, so that's bad, but if he does it early he can't fight you.

Orianna - You have to play smart, but you can usually outrange Zed, and ult when he goes in on you + shield, and generally you should have Barrier on top of it.

Lulu - Is a bit of a niche pick in solo queue, but can be strong against Zed because of her ultimate, shield, and speed boost to get away from Zed or negate his damage. This'll be a strong counter to him both during and after laning phase, as you can save any teammate that you're with.

Anivia - Can easily farm post-6 and tear, and can burst Zed down pretty easily. Plus you have the stun and your revive passive, and if you're around tower you can generally keep him from killing both you and your egg.

bobbery5Dec 30, 20151 votes

Karma Can use her insane early game poking ability to deny Zed's farm, while simultaneously taking farm and punishing Zed for getting too close to minions.

Streetlight ManDec 30, 20154 votes

So basically every ap mid laner but lux and brand can deal with zed?

All right boys, zed is obviously broken, great chat, let's go home.

Oh wait, Lux does have a built in shield that can shield around the same amount that hex drinker can.

Ok, so that leaves 1 champ that can't really deal with zed.

Zed is broken can we nerf him please

Robbit MangDec 30, 20154 votes

Actually lux and brand can easily counter zed in competent hands. When zed death marks he always appears directly behind the target, any lux or brand with a brain can easily stun/snare him and ruin his entire combo

1 800 MID LANEDec 31, 20151 votes

Azir You make me cry.

ZedexDec 30, 20155 votes

Morgana black shield has no effect on anything related to Zed except the slow from his shadow's e and his passive proc. The rest make sense.

Indominus BladeDec 30, 20159 votes

If a Zed buys item 3155 + item 3140 as his first two items, then you should be happy, because that Zed won't do any relevant damage in the midgame and will probably lose the game. Also, if you are having trouble as AP mid vs Zed, why not pick an AD champ and obliterate Zed?

SwapShadowsDec 30, 20158 votes

there are literally like 15+ midlane picks that completely destroy Zed ontop of also getting exhaust as a summoner spell or actually getting zhonyas.

BroloftDec 29, 20156 votes

Seeker's armguard is shit and has no mana help to mage.

ChroudDec 29, 20155 votes

Morgana is great counter to zed slow play build Zhonyas first and zed is in a whole lot of trouble. Most champs cant trade with him at start right now. gotta wait and be patient.

XenomancersDec 29, 201525 votes

{quoted}

is great counter to zed slow play build Zhonyas first and zed is in a whole lot of trouble. Most champs cant trade with him at start right now. gotta wait and be patient.

Morg is literally the answer to everything. Cept maybe Galio.

ChroudDec 29, 20155 votes

Kayle also :)

If this is a well known fact why dont people do this more often.

A) people are mad the champs they play all the time are getting destoryed by said champs.

B) They need to pick a champ that counters said champs abilities there is a good counter to every champ.

C) I know countering isnt always the answer but skill and gameplay I do belive you can take a champ that doesnt counter zed and still be effective but this person also knows to not go all in with out there jungler ganking that lane or they know to slow play that champ and camp under turret to not feed and wait to be strong enough to be effective.

The EllimiistDec 30, 20151 votes

Yeah i'll just counterpick in teambuilder/normals or the 60% chance that I cant counterpick in ranked.. literally the worst suggestion. You have a 40% chance that you can counterpick the zed and even then he doesn't have any truly hard counters that he can't itemize against.

TehNACHODec 31, 20151 votes

Actually the math is 50%.

48% Blue Side and 52% Red Side. Average is 50%.

EndlessSorcererDec 30, 20156 votes

Olaf Heh. Nice try.

YumaS2AstralDec 30, 20152 votes

{quoted}

is great counter to zed slow play build Zhonyas first and zed is in a whole lot of trouble. Most champs cant trade with him at start right now. gotta wait and be patient.

Vladimir and Cho'Gath are also good counters to Zed. Cho'Gath can afford to rush a Zhonya's first because of his passive restoring mana and he gains HP with his ult. His kit is also pretty good against Zed too. Vladimir can sustain himself and has no problems with mana (because he is manaless. He can afford to rush an early Zhonya if needed.

If all else fails, there is also Fizz. What Fizz can do is use his E to completely avoid being marked by Zed's ult. Also, Fizz can afford to rush a Zhonya.

Frap AchiinoJan 9, 20161 votes

Excellent point xchapex, people don't alter their builds and they wonder why they lose. Against zed, if youre ap, ALWAYS go zhonyas, if you're ad, always get a qss, his ult is completely worthless then

Starfish HDec 30, 20155 votes

Maybe JUST maybe. You could start Cloth+5 and hug turret and then buy yourself a nice little Zhonya's and laugh at him.

Robbit MangDec 30, 20153 votes

Tfw you get down voted by bronze with an actually legit strategy to deal with zed

Starfish HDec 30, 20152 votes

I cri everytim

fééd l0rdDec 30, 20154 votes

Zed is supposed to have an advantage in lane

dodge shurikens
don't get to close
watch out when he gets level 6 (always keep an eye at your experience too)
exhaust/teleport
Anivia
ask for ganks

Don't expect to win lane vs a lane dominant assassin. Just outscale him and DONT DIE.

B1naryB0tDec 30, 20151 votes

But balance-wise, why should an energy based champion have stronger poke than some mages? Why should an assassin be lane dominant if they're more able to roam with their mobility to pick up kills?

Spizzle9000Dec 30, 20152 votes

Why? Because Zed's an early/mid game champion god damn it. It's not that complicated. He's SUPPOSED to have better poke early game. He SHOULD be lane dominant early game. Don't forget that his Q is one of the thinnest skillshots out there.

An assassin will be lane dominant if they're strongest early on. It only makes sense.

Robbit MangDec 30, 20154 votes

If zed bought both those items he's gone like 3000 gold off his build path, which would REALLY set his damage behind.

Additionally, zed has the unique effect of having an ultimate that is 100% rendered useless by both quicksilver sash AND zhonyas hourglass.

When playing an ap mid vs zed rush hourglass, it's always going to be in your build path anyways, you're just shifting the build order. Once you get zhonyas, zed can practically never kill you again,

Rico NastyDec 30, 20151 votes

But some people like Syndra, Karma, Cass etc. can't afford to get a Zhonyas, they have to rush a Morello's because of the mana and cdr THAT THEY NEED to even function in lane.

fééd l0rdJan 1, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=karma or feed,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=x8MAAtcI,comment-id=00190000,timestamp=2015-12-30T16:27:35.700+0000)

But some people like Syndra, Karma, Cass etc. can't afford to get a Zhonyas, they have to rush a Morello's because of the mana and cdr THAT THEY NEED to even function in lane.

you don't want to function in lane against a Zed as Cass. You want to survive. Btw Cass is a bad example cause she will always go for a tear. So you'd rather go for a mana item which leaves you defenseless than going for fucking Zhonias? Dude, you just have to survive against Zed in lane as Ori or Syndra. Go always for the defensive item against Zed allthough you are winning. You want to keep your lead.

Raka Flaka MDDec 29, 20153 votes

I just shove the lane then go gank. Doesn't matter if you lose 1 tower if you end up getting your bot and top 2-5 kills a piece.

originary91Dec 30, 20153 votes

Zed is a little overbearing right now imo. He does way too much damage and has very smooth animations and frame rates, could do with a Nerf.

CatastropDec 30, 20153 votes

item 1056 >> item 3191 > item 3157 Mana and sustain good to go.....I should however mention I use Armour Quints on my Mage page. That aside though, you really need to put some effort into being a bit mobile so it's harder for him to WEQ you with consistency, that way you at least stand a chance of properly winning against him.

PapaGreg21Dec 30, 20152 votes

Kayle owns zed.

Spizzle9000Dec 30, 20152 votes

@OP Ever hear of Zhonya's? You are clearly playing the game expecting to have an easy time. Zed is supposed to make life hell for squishies. Seriously though, he has a ton of counters, a ton of items that counter him, and is not nearly as unkillable as you say he is.

You are whining about Seeker's Armguard not having mana? Well, Hexdrinker doesn't have CDR or Armor Pen, both of which are extremely important on Zed. Zed isn't an unkillable god and isn't very good in drawn out fights because of his tiny energy pool. Build a Zhonya's for Christ's sake and he can't do much to you as long as you have it. Or if you're AD, build a QSS. Learn to counterplay and itemize against champions, my good sir.

BroloftDec 30, 20151 votes

"You are whining about Seeker's Armguard not having mana? Well, Hexdrinker doesn't have CDR or Armor Pen, both of which are extremely important on Zed. "

What? That's the most ridiculous thing I've read all day. See, the thing about mages is that they NEED mana to cast spells and do shit in lane. Zed doesn't NEED cdr and armor pen to cast his spells, which is why he can get away with rushing hexdrinker and becoming unburstable. He doesn't need anything else because at level 1 he has enough sustain from sword+3pots. If you use mana to burn through 3 pots worth of health, you've already lost the lane because YOU'RE OOM. After his first back, it's already at hexdrinker. Try having a mage rush Seeker's against him, and they'll run OOM and all that armor/ap they bought becomes worthless. If you get 2 doran's on top of that... That's 2k gold. Not feasible before level 7 even.

Apparently everyone thinks you can get Zhonya's by 6. Fucking god.

Spizzle9000Dec 30, 20152 votes

If you build Seeker's Armguard and Zed builds Hexdrinker, neither of you are able to burst each other done easily. He doesn't need either stat for casting spells, but he does need them to cast spells frequently and actually do some real damage with them. You're not necessarily OOM, ever heard of ranged AAs? Most mana-using mids are ranged, and you should be able to AA him occasionally so why shouldn't be you able to get him to burn 3 health pots without being OOM? Just play safer like you're supposed to do against a Zed. I never said you needed to get two Doran's. That's someone else. And honestly, if you expect an easy time against a Zed as a mage, you're crazy.

You can't get Zhonya's by 6. I'm aware of that. Never said you could. But you CAN play safe. You CAN save CC spells and you CAN save your summs and stay under tower as much as possible. You CAN get a gank from you jungler. Honestly.