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When Do We Get a Quinn Rework?

Ignis0··11 votes·2,637 views

Quinn is one of those champs that makes me question what Riot was thinking while making her kit.

  • Her Q scales off of AP for some strange unknown reason that needs a fixin
  • She should be invulnerable while in her e because if they cc you your move is likely to backfire causing you to get stunned in the middle of their team.
  • Her W is merely a bush checker that can be done more easily by Ashe. I think this should be replaced by giving true sight so it can give some unique strategic advantages although for balance the lasting time should be cut down.
  • Her Ult seems to be more like an assassins ult. Although I do like it, it is nearly worthless in lane against another adc since it's all melee.
  • Her passive needs to be changed to an every 3rd hit because as it is you never know who valor will target and it can be quite annoying when you're in a 1v1 and valor decides to mark a minion instead of the enemy champ. Her passive also says that that valor identifies a vulnerable spot on the enemy champ for Quinn to attack and because of this i think the passive should include a 15% armor pen upon hit. This will also make Quinn a more relevant adc in a tank focused meta.

These are just a couple ideas that I've thrown around and heard from others. Of course making them all will probably make her a somewhat broken champ so I'm not asking for all of them to be added. Please provide you're feed back as well. PLEASE OH GREAT RITO CONSIDER A QUINN REWORK!

18 Comments

Nameless Voice6 votes
  • Her Q scales off both AD and AP. Why shouldn't it?
  • Invulnerability / untargetability mechanics are inherently toxic, especially on a low-cooldown basic ability. You need to use it strategically.
  • Her W is an instant all-directions vision ability plus a massive attack speed steroid passive (linked to her passive and her ult). You level it for the passive.
  • Her ult allows her to escape ganks, set up ganks, react to enemy invades, chase fleeing enemies, and also grants her a permanent attack speed boost from her passive, which makes her a really strong duellist. The execute is very lackluster, though.
  • This is true, Harrier is very unreliable, though you can forcibly trigger it with E.
OhthePiplup3 votes

Her Q scales off both AD and AP. Why shouldn't it?

Because she is an adc. Other people have skills that scale only off one thing, why shouldn't she?

Invulnerability / untargetability mechanics are inherently toxic, especially on a low-cooldown basic ability. You need to use it strategically.

Fizz . 8 second cd when maxed, for the "hefty cost" of 130 mana. When he has a mana item like item 3100 , and medium/low mana costs elsewhere. That skill, while still being untargetable, does tons of damage, and can be an escape or an engage.

Her W is an instant all-directions vision ability plus a massive attack speed steroid passive (linked to her passive and her ult). You level it for the passive.

Ashe has the exact same thing, but with global range. 40% max rank is not "Massive". For example, her attack speed "steroid" is as high as rank two Graves 's E. Graves can then level his E 3 more times for a 70% attack speed steroid.

Granted the ult passive gives good steroid.

Her ult allows her to escape ganks, set up ganks, react to enemy invades, chase fleeing enemies, and also grants her a permanent attack speed boost from her passive, which makes her a really strong duellist. The execute is very lackluster, though.

An Adc. Is not. An assassin.

She is forced, as a weak, flimsy, markswoman, to fly into the enemies face.

That is death.

And if she doesn't use it in a fight, what is the point of playing her? When you could play,Graves or Vayne orTristana or ect. Who all have ults that are useful in a fight.

She can duel, but an ADC is meant to be useful in fights, taking out tanks and other carries.

This is true, Harrier is very unreliable, though you can forcibly trigger it with E.

Maybe she can, but forcing someone to use an ability to gain what other champions get passively is not a good mechanic. Like what if cait has to use her E before she can attack with her passive.

Anyway, because her E can be stopped, she could be stunned when she is closing in. Now she is stuck inside the enemy, without her passive proc even on them.

Nameless Voice2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Boku no Pokemon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wEUs1PEQ,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-06-17T22:48:18.939+0000)

Because she is an adc. Other people have skills that scale only off one thing, why shouldn't she?

Ashe, Caitlyn, Corki, Ezreal, Kog'maw, Lucian, Miss Fortune, Sivir, Tristana, Twitch, Varus, and even Graves and Jinx have abilities that scale with AP. Only Draven, Kalista, Urgot and Vayne don't.

Fizz . 8 second cd when maxed, for the "hefty cost" of 130 mana. When he has a mana item like item 3100 , and medium/low mana costs elsewhere. That skill, while still being untargetable, does tons of damage, and can be an escape or an engage.

Yes, it's a prime example that proves my point that untargetability skills are inherently unhealthy. Fizz is balanced, but often hated because of his combo that allows no counterplay because of this skill.

Ashe has the exact same thing, but with global range.

Ashe's has a reveal in a line, not in a large area around herself.

An Adc. Is not. An assassin.

Why not? Vayne is a Marksman/Assassin. Quinn just has more emphasis on the "assassin" part than the Marksman part. What is a marksman's primary goal? To deal sustained damage to towers and enemies. Quinn can still do this, though perhaps not as well as some others because her strengths are more assassin-focused than most others. Not every champion needs to be the same.

She is forced, as a weak, flimsy, markswoman, to fly into the enemies face.

That is death.

Only if she uses it poorly.

And if she doesn't use it in a fight, what is the point of playing her? When you could play,Graves or Vayne orTristana or ect. Who all have ults that are useful in a fight.

It serves a different purpose than those champions' ults. It's less useful in teamfights, more useful in the laning phase, or cleaning up after teamfights, or when splitpushing.

She can duel, but an ADC is meant to be useful in fights, taking out tanks and other carries.

A Marksman's role usually isn't to take out carries, but to take out the tankier opponents that the mages, assassins and tanks on her team can't deal with. Either way, her blind makes her strong against other Marksmen if she is fighting them. She's somewhat weak against mages and assassins - most marksmen are. Also, another of a Marksman's primary purposes is to take objectives - towers, inhibitors, epic monsters - all of which she can do effectively.

floppy10001 votes

Harrier can actually be controlled. Valor marks targets logically.

  1. If you attack something, Valor will mark that target. If Harrier is at 0.2 second CD and you attack a full HP minion, Valor will mark that minion. You asked him to.
  2. If you have not attacked something recently, Valor will mark a minion that is on low health, allowing you to last hit it easier.
  3. If there isn't a low health minion, Valor will mark a champion in attack range.
  4. If there isn't one, Valor will just wait.
Dunkrius2g5 votes

Her passive needs to be changed to an every 3rd hit

I like that idea. Riot should implement one thing at a time. If they can do that, then that will be pretty good. If she needs more buffs, (but i think with this she will be far better than she is now), Then rito can put something in. Another thing they can focus on is to remove ALL of her bugs. If they do that, then she can be a pretty good pick.

floppy10001 votes

I think even better is Riot explains how Valor selects targets, because that is what is causing people to think Valor's marking is unreliable. If Riot has a tool tip that explains Valor's behavior:

  1. If you attack something, Valor will mark that target. If Harrier is at 0.2 second CD and you attack a full HP minion, Valor will mark that minion. You asked him to.
  2. If you have not attacked something recently, Valor will mark a minion that is on low health, allowing you to last hit it easier.
  3. If there isn't a low health minion, Valor will mark a champion in attack range.
  4. If there isn't one, Valor will just wait. Then everything will be solved. As a Quinn main, I had to go through custom games and blinds to figure out how Valor thinks. Also looked at What the Moose's Quinn guide to see if he said anything.
Minrog3 votes

Not a Quinn player. It was my understanding that her issues were more related to unreliable mechanics on her skills and that what she needs most is bug fixes? A full rework like what they did with Sion/Ryze seems pretty extreme to me and might not even include fixes (they don't always...).

floppy10001 votes

Quinn actually got the bugfixes she needed. Her E properly lands her at her basic attack range, instead of sometimes landing past it. Her Q hitbox was fixed, her W delay was fixed, and her E basic attack reset was fixed. So she's actually sitting pretty. Statisically, W/L ratio as of right now is 50.24%. Pretty balanced.

X8ViEhkPS02 votes

{quoted}

Quinn is one of those champs that makes me question what Riot was thinking while making her kit.

  • Her Q scales off of AP for some strange unknown reason that needs a fixin
  • She should be invulnerable while in her e because if they cc you your move is likely to backfire causing you to get stunned in the middle of their team.
  • Her W is merely a bush checker that can be done more easily by Ashe. I think this should be replaced by giving true sight so it can give some unique strategic advantages although for balance the lasting time should be cut down.
  • Her Ult seems to be more like an assassins ult. Although I do like it, it is nearly worthless in lane against another adc since it's all melee.
  • Her passive needs to be changed to an every 3rd hit because as it is you never know who valor will target and it can be quite annoying when you're in a 1v1 and valor decides to mark a minion instead of the enemy champ. Her passive also says that that valor identifies a vulnerable spot on the enemy champ for Quinn to attack and because of this i think the passive should include a 15% armor pen upon hit. This will also make Quinn a more relevant adc in a tank focused meta.

These are just a couple ideas that I've thrown around and heard from others. Of course making them all will probably make her a somewhat broken champ so I'm not asking for all of them to be added. Please provide you're feed back as well. PLEASE OH GREAT RITO CONSIDER A QUINN REWORK!

I'm just gonna leave some of my thoughts on these points.

  • Q scaling off of AP was added after she was released as a buff because people were building Trinity Force on her.
  • E should not be invulnerable during dash. Popping mid flight targeted projectiles I can see but, not invulnerability. As Quinn you are most likely using Vault (in a teamfight scenario) as peel when a melee champ jumps you. And as Valor it is just a standard gap closer.
  • W should almost entirely remade, I understand the thematic points of view. But so much of her Ultimate's power is tied to her W it should be shifted around.
  • My experience for using her ultimate is just for the out of combat movement speed. I almost never use Skystrike unless I'm split pushing and there is a single target I can fight.
  • She almost needs an entirely new passive. Having a passive with a pseudo random component isn't fun.
floppy10001 votes

I'm not sure if I should say this again, but Quinn's passive is actually completely controllable, even though the tool tip given for it doesn't say so. You can scroll around this page and see my explanation on how Valor picks targets. I don't think I should copy paste that anymore XD.

As for her W, people just don't spend enough time thinking about how her W ties in with the rest of her kit. They read the tooltip and then go "oh a brush checker. Great." But they don't realize the synergies between Heightened Senses and Vault (example, for an escape, W to reveal a jungle camp, then vault to it to escape over a wall).

Skystrike has a ton of uses, but it's pretty mechanically taxing. It is, of course, a combat ability. Skystrike has an autoattack reset, can be activated mid-Vault to get the vault back into Harrier mark, and as an AOE turn around for teamfights.

As a Quinn main, I personally think the points brought up in the OP stem solely from a mechanical lack of understanding of how Quinn & Valor works, or from a completely thematical misunderstanding of what role Quinn is supposed to fill.

kJs2 votes

Regarding Skystrike, I think it's alright at the moment. I've played Quinn at least more than 10 games and I think it's great as it is. The reason why it may not deal as much damage as it should is because its AoE is quite massive. It's really strong at the end of teamfights where Quinn's team is winning. I've had many double kills with Skystrike. If you couple Quinn with another Assassin, one foor ADC the other going for the mid carry, you can turn fights really well.

AzureInTheDark1 votes

After Poppy, Yorick, and Caitlyn get their own reworks done.

FallingMeteor1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Azure KayZ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wEUs1PEQ,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-06-17T20:59:57.445+0000)

After Poppy, Yorick, and Caitlyn get their own reworks done.

Why does Caitlyn need a rework?The only thing she needs is a VU.

Yorukin1 votes
  • Her Q scales off of AP for some strange unknown reason that needs a fixin
  • She should be invulnerable while in her e because if they cc you your move is likely to backfire causing you to get stunned in the middle of their team.
  • Her W is merely a bush checker that can be done more easily by Ashe. I think this should be replaced by giving true sight so it can give some unique strategic advantages although for balance the lasting time should be cut down.
  • Her Ult seems to be more like an assassins ult. Although I do like it, it is nearly worthless in lane against another adc since it's all melee.
  • Her passive needs to be changed to an every 3rd hit because as it is you never know who valor will target and it can be quite annoying when you're in a 1v1 and valor decides to mark a minion instead of the enemy champ. Her passive also says that that valor identifies a vulnerable spot on the enemy champ for Quinn to attack and because of this i think the passive should include a 15% armor pen upon hit. This will also make Quinn a more relevant adc in a tank focused meta.
  • What's so bad about a marksman having an AP ratio somewhere in their kit? In Quinn's case, it's largely there to give her a bit of extra mileage out of items like item 3057, which she has good synergy with given her burst-focused damage.
  • Low-cooldown untargetability is largely considered toxic and hard to balance, even if it requires a target. Fizz and Master Yi are both well-known for this. Combined with the fact that Vault is a spacing ability with an interrupt and a damage steroid, and you've got one heck of an overloaded ability.
  • Heightened Senses is more than a brush-checker; the passive is invaluable for keeping Quinn's damage and mobility up to par, and it allows Valor to completely shred towers and win an average 1v1. On top of that, gold-free true vision is A) kind of obnoxious against stealth-based escapes (see LeeSin) and B) not very thematic given that Valor is just a plain old nonmagical eagle.
  • Tag Team's real power is in mid-to-late-game dueling and cross-map mobility. While it may be useless in a teamfight, it gives Quinn a nice global pressure niche that other ADCs don't fill nearly as well. Though I admit that Skystrike is really lackluster.
  • Not much to say here. Quinn's biggest issue is the unreliability of Harrier, which just so happens to be her biggest source of damage. I get that Valor has a mind of his own, but for such a supposedly well-trained scout and battle partner, he has some pretty ridiculous ADHD to deal with.

Personally, I'd like to see Harrier only proc on champions, big monsters, and maaaybe big minions. While this would bite into her already-terrible waveclear, a simple base AS buff could help compensate for that. Aside from that, her attack frames could stand to be sped up to match the sound effects, and Valor's Vault NEEDS a damage boost. The low damage on Quinn's version is fine to make up for the free passive mark, but it's inexcusable on Valor, especially since the target gets knocked back to just barely within his attack range.

floppy10001 votes

So uh, Quinn main here. Not just throwing out BS, but speaking from experience.

Q scales of AD and AP. No issue here, right? Unless you're jimmies have been particularly russled by some AP Quinn....?

I see no reason to remove a key component of Quinn's counter play. Quinn's play style is poke and trade lightly until you can all-in with expected damage. Making her E untargetable would mean Quinn has no risk for all-ins, and that makes her all-ins safer than any champion in the game!!!!

If you're only using her active W as a bush checker, then you're using it wrong. Her W is used when:

  1. You want to check if an assassination target is alone.
  2. You're trying to escape and you use it so you can vault to a jungle camp.
  3. You want to spook someone from an objective or a position (you want to let them know you're there) or 4) You actually are checking the brush.

Her ultimate has way more uses than Assassinations (although it can be used for assassination)

  1. It increases your overall DPS, so you can use it against lower CC/lockdown team comps to play as a mobile fighter instead of a ranged caster.
  2. You can use Vault => BotrK => Tag Team as a nifty and effective escape
  3. It alters your Vault so it's much easier to use the Heightened Senses => Vault combo as an escape.
  4. It greatly increases movement speed while roaming, allowing you to pull off more effective roams with less punishment to your lane tower. (I've honestly used it to get back to lane quicker.)

And clearly you don't know how to control your passive. Valor marks targets very logically. In order of priority:

  1. If you attack something, Valor will mark that target. If Harrier is at 0.2 second CD and you attack a full HP minion, Valor will mark that minion. You asked him to.
  2. If you have not attacked something recently, Valor will mark a minion that is on low health, allowing you to last hit it easier.
  3. If there isn't a low health minion, Valor will mark a champion in attack range.
  4. If there isn't one, Valor will just wait. Your complaint about Quinn's passive is completely irrelevant considering the only reason you don't like it is because you mechanically don't understand it.

Considering Quinn is currently sitting on a 50.24% win rate, I think she's statistically in a very good place. I feel that you only feel this rework is necessary is because you don't quite understand how she works as a champion yet. If feel that you don't quite fully understand her strengths and how they're pushed, nor her weaknesses, and how they're exploited. This is evident by the fact that (here I go into my little bias) you seem to play her in the ADC role, which I disagree with because it hides her strengths (strong early 1v1 potential, great roams and mobility, strong zone control) and it highlights her weaknesses (extreme vulnerability to peel and CC, poor full out teamfighting ability). This is why I play her top and mid, and sometimes even jungle, where I can make great use of her 1v1 ability, roams, and zone control, while masking my weaknesses.

Shrîke1 votes

While some of those buffs may be nice, it would break her top lane.

  1. She didn't initially have the AP ratio on release, it was added as a buff to give incentive to build triforce, and also gives a bit of power when you get baron. I tend to build BC over it now these days anyway.

  2. No, it's counted as a dash and would be completely broken on a 4 second cooldown.

  3. And when Quinn was released people also compared her to Ashe, Quinn having the better vision control apparently. Being two completely different champions with different uses you shouldnt compare utility vision to a chasing field vision, its just bad.

  4. I fail to see how it's useless against an adc in lane. A well co-ordinated play with a hard engage support is very strong with Tag-Team. A great Quinn player would know this.

  5. No no no no. Lets just turn her into another generic champion like Vayne or gnar or freaken Ekko. No. I love Quinn because she is UNIQUE, take that away and what is she? Another Vayne without the true damage yeah cool.

  6. I like the armor pen idea but I'd make it a little less and make it for bonus armor pen.

Ravenfeather1 votes

First and foremost, Quinn is not designed as an ADC/Marksman. Her kit is designed as a fighter/assassin, regardless of what her tags are in the client. Anyone with a decent knowledge of gameplay will look at her kit and tell you this. Her ideal lane, to be frank, is top lane, where she has a decent chance of being matched against a melee champion.

Q scales off of both AD and AP in order to reward Quinn for purchasing a Trinity Force, should she decide to go that route. It was explained in the patch notes where that scaling was added.

Invulnerability on her E would be completely broken. A low cooldown spell that gives invulnerability is a really high candidate for abuse. As it is, her E allows her to dodge a lot of skillshots, and it also makes her hard to target.

Quinn's ultimate IS an assassin-style ultimate, or a finisher for a damage-focused fighter. As mentioned above, regardless of how she is tagged in the client, she is not a marksman. There was talk on the PBE at one point of significantly lowering the cooldown of her ultimate and taking away the damage portion at the end, with her Rank 3 ultimate cooldown becoming 0 seconds, but that vanished some time ago. TBH, I think it would help put her in a unique niche, more so than where she is at present, but her ultimate performs a valid function for her REAL identity: a fighter-assassin.

Harrier is decently reliable when you need it, because if you're in a duel, then the rules for Harrier's targeting should be working in your favor. Since it is still a chance based event, there is always a chance of it not happening, but by and large from my experiences in duels with Quinn, Harrier will target the enemy champion provided that you are in combat with them. According to the wiki, Harrier's targeting priority is as follows:

Last enemy hit. If the last enemy hit was a small minion, it appears to select a different target. Lowest health enemy champion. Lowest health enemy minion.

Allkali1 votes

What has rito done whit my beautiful Quinn.

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