Since Yasuo is an assassian, shouldn't he be a bit squisher?

Kallian··9 votes·1,231 views

doesnt that make the most sense? his passive grants him a shield by... WALKING AROUND. Seriously, there's no smart way to engage this guy, because by the time your poke comes off cooldown, his shield is up again, tornado ready, he's ulting you now and the item 3022 makes you unable to do shit and you just lost the game.

gg ez

seriously riot, pick a side with yasuo! make him a squishy dmg dealer, or reduce his scalings and take away his armor pen after his ult

63 Comments

Zero Skill Tank8 votes

He is not an assassin.

And Rito already did hit his tank builds. They probably should nurf ordinary Yasuo a bit more, but for now that's better than nothing.

420 grams2 votes

His description is "fighter, assassin"

Ralanr6 votes

Yeah, and Xerath is a Mage/assassin. Don't take secondaries seriously.

He's more of a skirmisher.

Nahui2 votes

He's a fighter or an assassin. riot's new archtypes aren't a thing, they just want them to be a thing. Assassin, tank, fighter, bruiser, marksmen, support, mage. That's it.

Ralanr7 votes

They are a thing. Just because you don't accept it doesn't mean it isn't true.

Nahui2 votes

They're not a thing. Just because you accept it doesn't mean it's true.

Ralanr6 votes

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/dev-blog-classes-subclasses

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list

Sure, but considering Riot is pushing the concept, I have confidence that this is a thing or is going to be a thing soon.

Penns1 votes

Im just sitting here like "wtf is a "Vanguard"? ... Or a "Warden"?... and why does it matter?" lol. I mean, if you got like 3.5k hp and high armor/mr, most people are just gonna call you a tank anyway..

Ralanr2 votes

I know, and to a lot of people it doesn't matter.

Think of it as an easier way to build teamcomps. If you want engage, look at divers or vanguards. If you want a good tank that can peel, look at vanguards and wardens. If you want a tanky guy that causes chaos, look at juggernauts or vanguards.

When people say, "we need a tank" and are given Mundo or Darius as that "tank" they effectively weaken the teamcomp because those champions can only provide being a big wall of health for tanking. They cannot engage fights or properly peel for your team.

People say it's too complicated, but it's actually a simplification.

Penns1 votes

Hm, kinda makes sense. But I still doubt many people are gonna say "pls pick a vanguard" anytime soon :D

Ralanr2 votes

I don't think they will either. People don't change quickly and can be lazy with terms.

Which in a chatroom is fine. Just as long as a player understands what a tank is and what kind of tank fits the teamcomp, then we've succeeded.

Spicy Rice2 votes

And it helps riot when making/reworking champions as they can now use their new terms to create champions to fit a defined role

Ralanr3 votes

And Bingo was his nameo.

Nahui1 votes

Well when you say "We need a tank" typically it means you need a front line. Mundo and Darius are that. If you want that full tank CC package we all know and hate, people usually say "We need CC" or a CC tank. I understand the point of subclasses, but I think they are unnecessary. The vernacular of League has held since it was released, and it translates to other games too. That's why people won't call some mages "Disruptors". Because that doesn't exist anywhere else. Everywhere else it's a mage, or magician, or magic, or something along those lines. And that's what Riot wants to do. They want to set their genre and game apart from the rest. Which is fine, I understand that. However, I am sort of a veteran to League so seeing all these new terms is just odd because it's classifying a system that doesn't quite need it. Leona can be a Warden, Vanguard, Sun Queen, anything. Her kit is the same. It's the knowledge of kit that matters, not the subclass. If you know what Leona does, you don't need to be told she's this or that.

I think it just makes it difficult to have conversations in terms of balance. Saying "Yasuo is an assassin" and being corrected with "Actually no, he's technically a skirmisher so everything he just did was in the rammifications of that subclass so it's fair." (Again, just picking on Yas as he's a hot topic with this) just makes it harder to actually discuss balance.

The Sword Saint1 votes

{quoted}

Well when you say "We need a tank" typically it means you need a front line. Mundo and Darius are that. If you want that full tank CC package we all know and hate, people usually say "We need CC" or a CC tank. I understand the point of subclasses, but I think they are unnecessary. The vernacular of League has held since it was released, and it translates to other games too. That's why people won't call some mages "Disruptors". Because that doesn't exist anywhere else. Everywhere else it's a mage, or magician, or magic, or something along those lines. And that's what Riot wants to do. They want to set their genre and game apart from the rest. Which is fine, I understand that. However, I am sort of a veteran to League so seeing all these new terms is just odd because it's classifying a system that doesn't quite need it. Leona can be a Warden, Vanguard, Sun Queen, anything. Her kit is the same. It's the knowledge of kit that matters, not the subclass. If you know what Leona does, you don't need to be told she's this or that.

I think it just makes it difficult to have conversations in terms of balance. Saying "Yasuo is an assassin" and being corrected with "Actually no, he's technically a skirmisher so everything he just did was in the rammifications of that subclass so it's fair." (Again, just picking on Yas as he's a hot topic with this) just makes it harder to actually discuss balance.

The value of these terms isn't in discussing single champs (leona does xyz because shes this role, lets say vanguard), its in looking at your team in champ select as its being built and saying 'lets see, we are strong at teamfights but are easily kited and don't yet have a way to force a fight. we need a champ who can instantly force a teamfight in our advantage if they we get into a good position. vanguards are good at that, lets consider the lanes we have left to pick for and what vanguards we can pick from those... oh look support is open and leona should do fine against that enemy botlane, lets take her'

It's a means of grouping champs up by what kinds of things they are good at to help with discussing relative balance yes but more usefully for when you are trying to fill out a team comp. Instead of typing out a bunch of stuff about getting kited, needing to force fights, a frontline specialized in engages, etc. while the clock ticks down you can just say 'a vanguard would fill out our comp nicely' and the idea is gotten across to anyone who has gotten used to these terms. Same as people needed to learn 'adc' back in the day, they'll just learn the new ones eventually and it will all go smoother.

Verxint3 votes

I think Riot decides what their champions are classified as, not you. The only reason it's not in the client is because they're redoing the client from the ground up, so there's no point in updating it right now.

AthenasVendetta4 votes

"skirmisher"

Sniper 04 votes

They need to hit the base values and they can't do that because his q is based on auto attack damage. : D

Verxint1 votes

They could make his Q AD scaling something like 0.8/0.85/0.9/0.95/1.0 AD scaling as you rank it up.

Ralanr1 votes

I don't think good Yasuo players max his Q first.

Verxint2 votes

Well the idea with this would be to hurt his early game without hurting his late game - If he has to rank Q now to have damage, that'll weaken his early game. But the damage is the same late.

It would make rank 1 of the skill do less damage than an autoattack if you had 100 AD, but get rank 2 it jumps up to 260 AD. Yas usually rushes phantom dancer, so this isn't going to force him to rank Q to max first, but it will lower his early damage unless he gives up mobility.

Cremepie4 votes

I mean his passive is annoying.. but that's probably the fairest part of his kit imo.

Also he is a skirmisher not an assassin, yes even if he can delete you in 3-4 seconds, so can fiora and other fed skirmishers.

Nahui1 votes

Don't try and reinforce Riot's funny attempt at archtypes. Assassins, tanks, bruisers, fighters, mages, Marksmen, supports. That's all that exists.

Ralanr6 votes

You do realize that bruiser and fighter become so synonymous that they are incredibly difficult to tell apart anymore?

Nahui2 votes

Not quite. There are key, key differences. It's like differentiating some mages and assassins as well as tanks and supports. They have key differences. Much better than classifying like 8+ archtypes.

Ralanr5 votes

Ok. Please tell me the difference between Bruiser and Fighter and what do fighters have that Bruisers don't?

Tormentula4 votes

{quoted}

Ok. Please tell me the difference between Bruiser and Fighter and what do fighters have that Bruisers don't?

I legitmately tried to and then deleted my post..

yea there is legitmately no difference. The only champions I can consider a fighter is Fiora since every other fighter builds defensive items and has the peel and utility of a tank.

Why should a fighter have the tools to basically do what is expected of a support's kit, build HP items, and deal more damage than the adc.. (Yasuo shield+knock-up+surpress+projectile block, Tryndamere invurn+AD boost+crit chance boost+slows, and many more)

I'm legitmately concerned by season 7 or 8 we might see fighters in the bot lane as supports... Elise a mage fighter/diver is already seeing more support play in korea than sona and we've already seen mid laners from the past go support either as a secondary or primary position.

Granted I like diversity, but fighters are legitmately overloaded. When I think of a fighter, I should think of a main damage dealer that joins into fights weaving between targets showing skills in dodging attacks or being blown up as the main focus for going to deep or messing up. Kinda what I always pictured riven if her W and the E shield was removed.

I get fighters need some identity with things that make them less of a fighter and attributes of other things, but there are so few actual "fighters" in the class, the fighters category might as well be deleted and everybody in it debated between being juggernauts, tanks, or bruisers.

Ralanr3 votes

That's been the main problem with "fighters" the term is so vague and the lineup that uses it has become so broad that it has barely any meaning.

That's why Riot divided fighters into Divers and Juggernauts, and moved the fighters that didn't belong in those categories into other groups.

Riven, Yasuo, and Fiora are now Skirmishers of the Slayer subclass. Gangplank is an AD battlemage. And Rek'sai is a vanguard (though I wish they'd balance her as a diver).

En FireShade1 votes

They said that they changed Rek'Sai too much from her original identity as a bruiser to a cc bot/mobile ward, and that created some serious balance issues, so they want to do some changes to her.

Big Lincoln1 votes

Why should a fighter have the tools to basically do what is expected of a support's kit, build HP items, and deal more damage than the adc.. ( shield+knock-up+surpress+projectile block, invurn+AD boost+crit chance boost+slows, and many more)

because they are melee and riot has been making ranged champions stronger and stronger every time one gets released or reworked. not to mention ranged champions often have better steroids anyway.

they absolutely should have the ability to build defensively and still do damage; riot has made it so melee glass cannons can't exist anymore.

Nahui2 votes

Bruisers are tankier and typically slower but not to the level of tanks.

Think juggernauts when it comes to Bruiser. Darius, Morde, Skarner (Has speed, less damage) Olaf, Sion. Basically they're like tanks with the purpose to stick to targets, but tanks tend to pack CC and try and disable carries. Bruisers tend not to have too many disables, simply damage and beefiness. They aren't as tanky, building a couple damage items while tanks build fully tanky typically. They are similar to fighters in that they are designed to excel in just a constant fight. Without kiting or a strong burst, they're designed to win the DPS time war (Aside from late game ADCs, but the tankiness allows the bruiser to usually deplete the ADC's health bar first)

Fighters are more agile, higher damage but squishier targets. They have kits designed to get in, and simply duel/fight. They don't have burst kits, they have DPS kits. Typically they also come with some sort of good defensive ability. Think Riven, Yasuo, Fiora, Tryndamere. However, they are almost a reverse of bruisers. They typically build mostly damage and a couple tanky items.

So, what do fighters have that bruisers don't? Well that's easy. Let's compare two of them. Riven vs Darius. Riven is more agile, higher direct damage. She has many dashes, as well as a shield to add a bit of tankiness to her. Darius is slower. Does less damage, but he's tankier. Both from build paths and from the sustain he receives from Q. Riven more hard CC, Darius has slows and a slight knock up. Riven packs stun and knock up.

Let's compare Fiora to Morde. Again, Fiora is more mobile both if she lands her lunge and if she does not. If not, it's still a dash every some seconds. If she lands it, virtually no CD. Either way, it's more than Morde's got. She's squishier than Morde in obvious ways, and her damage is definitely higher. However, she does have innate tankiness in her parry ability. Morde is slow, lumbering, tankier, and has lower DPS but due to tankiness, has the same bruiser advantage of extended DPS fights. Fighters have an advantage in short DPS fights.

Now, these are polar opposite stereotypes of these archtypes. Let's try and deviate and still identify the differences.

Skarner and Tryndamere.

Skarner, unlike many of these bruisers, has speed in both his shield and his passive. He's also got a stun and that ult plus a slow (I'm not saying bruisers have no CC and this is surprising, see Sion and Renekton, however it's a deviation from Morde and Darius that I used as examples.) So why is he still a bruiser? Well, unlike someone like Darius who is a bruiser that shares similarities with fighters, Skarner is a bruiser that shares similarities with tanks. Quite tanky, plenty of CC, decent way to initiate (Huge reason as to why he's not a tank, think Amumu-Sej-Naut). However, he still does damage due to his Q and the natural build path of sheen. He also usually builds a bit of AD, typically a sheen item and another AD item and then tanky, as is characteristic of a bruiser. Again, he has the advantage in the long DPS trade due to tankiness and constant stream of damage (Q-auto-sheen).

Tryndamere, unlike those fighters up there, typically builds full damage. Sometimes a Trynd may be cheeky and get a bit beefy, but overall, it's a 5 item powerhouse with boots attached. This leads one to believe "Well, why not assassin?" Because as often as all of us have been 3 hit by a fed Tryndamere due to 100% crit and shiv, that's not assassination. It's an extremely high stream of DPS. He has that characteristic mobility that fighters have to get in, he's got that innate tankiness due to his ult and he definitely has that advantage in the short DPS war. Trynd is an outlier due to the fact that he also wins long DPS wars usually due to that ult, but that's really the only characteristic he's got that's even somewhat bruiser. But that's how champion design works; not all champs were meant to be black and white. he sticks via dash and slow. Unlike many fighters, he's got no hard CC. But, this is due to the way his slow works and that he gets 5 seconds of guaranteed life.

So they exhibit properties considered foreign to their archtypes, but they still stick to the archtype they'd been given for the most part.

So even with the new archtypes Riot wants to instill, there are gray areas. I'd even argue there are more gray areas in the new system than the old. It makes the game look and sound flashier and more sophisticated though if, instead of saying "Support" we get to sip our tea cup and go "We need a Vanguard this game" or "A warden would really help us out."

Either way, it's almost all irrelevant. All these archtypes serve to do is create balance arguments. "But Yasuo is a skirmisher, not an assassin so it's not okay that he one shot me!" (Not complaining about Yasuo, I know he can't one shot. I'm making an example.) Classifying them doesn't change their kits, their playstyles, their anything. It's just something to make the game sound better and more appealing.

Also, disclaimer; Idk if I sound hostile. That's never the intention. So if you read this or any other comment in a hostile tone, that's not my intended vibe.

Does this explain the difference well or should I get some more examples?

Ralanr2 votes

I apologize for reacting with hostility. I'm usually used to hostility when it comes to this subject.

As for your examples, bruiser just seems like an old term for juggernaut. But there are champions that are built beefy like bruisers but lack the inherent weakness.

Vi, Xin, and Pantheon, all of which are built to engage in a single target and burst them down. They lack the needed escape tools (unless Vi lives long enough to Q again) to get out like an assassin.

I don't mean to disregard Yasuo's damage output by not calling him an assassin. I just see that assassins are a separate subclass of a class he belongs to, Slayers.

As explained above, the Fighter class as become so bloated and vague that it lost meaning. So Riot decided to break the classes down to better express what these champions are supposed to do.

So these high dps melee champions with defensive tools are now called Skirmishers because they work better in skirmishes rather than quick fights (you could argue Xin to be a skirmisher if his diving mechanic wasn't so powerful).

I won't disagree that these archetypes cause arguments, but that's hardly something this forum can't deal with. I already know a lot of people aren't going to use the new subclass system to its fullest potential. But I do believe that in higher tiers it will be considered.

As for your Yasuo example (and I'm not arguing his balance state either) there would be multiple factors for why he would one shot someone.

They were squishy, he was fed, etc (but mainly those two).

Again I see it as a simplification of how to categorize and understand champion strength and weaknesses.

But even if we do not agree, please understand that this system is going to be used by some people just as I understand that it will not be used by some.

And again, thank you for being clear on tone and I apologize for any rudeness I have given.

Nahui1 votes

Vi I figured she might come up. Now, here's the tricky part that bruiser and fighter have, and is probably the reason this new subclass system is coming in. Champions are never restricted to their design. If you build amumu full AP, he's a mage. Build him full AD, he's a shitty, shitty fighter. I say this because of Vi. Vi has extreme flexibility in her build. She can build to be a bruiser, a tank or a fighter. Build her warrior, Triforce/Maw and rest tank? Bruiser. Build her 3-4 damage items and tank items after? Fighter. Build her cinderhulk and full tank? Tank. I wouldn't call her full AD build assassin because she's not quick and agile like assasins. Even her ult is slow, her Q has a charge time, etc. Overall though, the effective way to play Vi is bruiser. She typically builds a couple damage items, then rest defense. She's got a little bit of mobility but nothing on the scale of Tryndamere or Riven due to charge up time. She has one form of CC, so she's not some Nautilus and she's just a beefy damage dealer.

Not going to go over xin, he's almost the exact same thing.

Panth is a fighter early game, bruiser late game. Early game he builds damage and does large streams of DPS due to spear shot and the nature of his E. Late game he falls off due to early dominance kit and is forced to build tanky. But even late game, panth often has a fighter build and remains to be a fighter. Where panth doesn't have direct movement abilities, he does have the highest base MS in the game being 355. But, low mobility is due to the ridiculous damage he sports. If he had any dash, he'd be an assassin due to the ability to quickly get in and out.

The biggest problem I see is that most fighters can build to be bruiser and most bruisers can build to be fighters. You're never gonna see a legit AD syndra mid and call her a fighter saying she's a mage that can build fighter. But someone like Riven or Vi? I mean, yeah. They can build to be a bruiser or build to be a fighter. Usually one path is better for a champ, and it's based off that path that we classify them but it's not super restrictive.

And I'm just a veteran to League, so seeing 6 seasons and vernacular used in other fantasy games trying to be changed for the purpose of differentiating League from the rest of the games is just wonky and off. Everyone knows what a fighter is or a mage is. You could ask 10 year olds and they'd probably know (Some of those 10 year olds are even on this game), but you bring up slayer or vanguard or skirmisher? It's just a system I don't think will catch on.

Rivuo1 votes

{quoted}

Ok. Please tell me the difference between Bruiser and Fighter and what do fighters have that Bruisers don't?

Fighters are mobile and dont build as tanky.

Bruisers are immobile and build way more tank.

Thats why bruisers according to riot, all have some form of high damage... Because they arent mobile and lack Cc.

See illaoi darius and garen.. Bruisers that lack mobility..

See riven and fiora.. Fighters because they dont build tanky but are way more mobile.

TehNACHO7 votes

Remember to never tell us exactly what those key differences are btw.

Rivuo1 votes

{quoted}

You do realize that bruiser and fighter become so synonymous that they are incredibly difficult to tell apart anymore?

Thats not true at all..? Bruises build way more tanky than fighters do.

Fighters are wayyyy more mobile too..

Ralanr1 votes

Except tanky fighters are usually categorized as juggernauts now. Bruiser is just an older term at this point.

Rivuo1 votes

{quoted}

Except tanky fighters are usually categorized as juggernauts now. Bruiser is just an older term at this point.

I agree with you but you have to realize yes bruiser is an older term, but it literally means the same thing as juggernaut.

Tanky build-lack of mobility-high damage in melee range

Ralanr1 votes

Yes, but I was arguing the synonymous connection because the original post I was replying to had juggernauts separate.

dominusx3 votes

it's not the champions problem the items are overtunned get that in your empty head for fucks sake. why do you think tank ekko became a thing? tank fizz? tank akali? not to mention the Keystones made the game a balance nightmare.

Troubles1 votes

{quoted}

it's not the champions problem the items are overtunned

True, Yasuo (and other champs) just make some items too useful with their kit.

dominusx1 votes

love how they downvote a logical comment. remind of the people i int feed to piss them off in game. :D

Troubles1 votes

{quoted}

love how they downvote a logical comment. remind of the people i int feed to piss them off in game. :D

I don't pay attenton to upvotes or downvotes on here, but I agree that downvoting a relevant comment is dumb. Downvotes should be used for irrelevant comments not contributing to the thread. I don't agree with intentionally feeding though, and I think you shouldn't do that.

dominusx1 votes

And i think when i tell people that they should take it easy in fights because they are 0-10 they should stop but they dont. so not much reason for me to stop either. ( dw i never troll people on promos )

Penns3 votes

Hes not an assassin but his passive, or his whole kit really, kind of suggests that he was supposed to build mainly damage and 100% crit chance. He more or less already does that after the nerfs tho.

Anonagon2 votes

He's a melee carry. That's why he has situationally powerful defensive tools. Every melee carry has these kind of abilities.

CheezyBoo691 votes

If hes a melee carry then why does he have such a stupid strong laning phase?

Didn't Riot admit that at release? He was supposed to be weak at the start of the game hence his counter play and then become a monster later? Looks to me like yasuo has a super annoying and oppressive laning phase.

EcchiOtakuTM2 votes

Yasuo isn't an assassin, that happened because the term melee "carry" was removed thus him and yi were shoved into random roles. The new term fits them though "skirmisher". However tank yasuo wasn't intended, yes he does have defense mechanisms but wasn't suppose to go so tanky still with them built in. However until riot removes his ulti's free LW and gives a different bonus instead(like misc buffs elsewhere) he won't have to build it, thus can get just that much tankier.

People dont understand that his double crit, w and e are entirely fine. It's just his ultimate allows him to forgo an additional item thus allows a tank/bruiser item for it.

Dabrick011 votes

HE'S NOT AN ASSASSIN. Why is this so hard for people to get? You probably fed him too much and killed you easily.

The Sword Saint1 votes

Riven, Fiora, and Yasuo were referred to as 'light fighters' back before these new terms came out to emphasize that they build mostly damage and get the majority of their survivability from positioning tools and cooldown based defensive options. Now they are classified as skirmishers (of the slayer class) to emphasize that they operate most effectively in small (1-3) engagements because their general squishiess and melee nature makes it hard for them to survive against much more cc and burst than that with only their spacing and single defensive cooldown.

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