How to deal with the Tank Meta 2.0
right off the top of my head
Its as if people already forgot what itemizing and counterpicking is.
right off the top of my head
Its as if people already forgot what itemizing and counterpicking is.
Jungle tanks being decent does not equate to a "tank meta".
And yet they keep kicking sion in the nuts.
They nerfed his damage ONE TIME. Cinderhulk indirectly buffed the shit out of Sion. I rarely played Sion before Cinderhulk, and now I'm at a 80% win rate with him in ranked. Turns out bonus health stacked with passive bonus health on kills is hella powerful.
They nerfed his lane shout and gave him cinderhulk to shove him into jungle because a tank doing well in a lane is unheard of, then they realized he was already a good jungler and cinderhulk synergizes well with his w passive, so they nerfed not one but two damage abilities. So his clear in both is hit hard, he's still good, I'm just annoyed that he's getting so focused when there's so many more problem children.
Yes, HOW DARE THEY! How dare they nerf a hypertank that does more damage than Pantheon late game while building straight tank! IT'S THE LCSBIGPLAYS! THE LCS BIG PLAYS I TELL YOU!!!1!
Lol you actually think they want successful lane tanks? Mundo, maokai, shen, singed, sion, they're just another one lined up to be nerfed because passively farming and waiting for ganks isn't engaging. Sion only does as much damage as pantheon If he is behind, sion only does that kind of damage if people stand in his q like bots. Anyone with a brainstem can dodge it, easily.
If Mundo's getting nerfed, it's because Riot keeps taking Grievous Wounds out of champion's kits, and they don't have a good AD item that does that anymore (you take that out of
's kit, and I'm getting the pitchforks and torches ready). Maokai has had his 15 minutes of fame, and Shen and Singed were knee jerk nerfed a while back in an asinine way (no MR per level, despite Galibro getting AP scaling off his MR, yet still getting scaling.)
As for Sion, you underestimate positioning. Yeah, if I derp down the lane like a moron, I'm never going to be able to knock anyone up. But if I come in from behind like the Edelweiss in Valkyria Chronicles, they're not going to be able to react in enough time to get out of the way of my knockup. And if I ult, well, if you get hit, you're getting stun locked, unless your name is Gangplank or Olaf.
You can use it point blank or from flank, thats its preferred use imo, thats how I use it, but hey if you hit a tank, or if anyone has a blink ability, they will dodge and kite your slow shambling ass. Honestly Sion is a new version of Nasus that no one knows how to combat yet, so the balance team is just chucking nerfs at him until a solution is found and he is inevitably turned to mulch.
That wasn't a "chuck nerf", there was a problem with how efficiently Sion was clearing the jungle as a tank. I only needed to eat one biscuit as Sion, and I'll be able to sit in jungle until I'm level 6 (would be more if I didn't run OOM), because of how much damage Sion's Q did to jungle monsters on top of being stupidly tanky from the large monster bonuses. So no, these aren't just random nerfs for the sake of nerfing, they're there for a reason.
Sion's sustain in the jungle was not special. Since there are so many champions that can sustain themselves indefinitely or at least remain threatening enough to gank after their first clear I would hardly call that a problem specific to Sion.
If Riot feels like champions shouldn't be able to do that, then they're doing a terrible job balancing things because so many of them already can. Give me five champions who fit reasonably well within the current jungle meta and I bet I can get them through the jungle without issue, especially with a leash.
Yeah this is what I'm talking about, nidalee can easily clear faster AND sustains more. Sion just has an hp shield. If he gets counterjungled, especially early, his farming goes to shit and he doesnt get tanky. But If everyone is passive, he gets fed and hard to kill, he's just like Nasus.
I agree with your comparison to Nasus, there are a lot of commonalities between the two. The biggest difference being Sion's kit is a little bit more useful for the team because of the mobility and the hard CC. Otherwise, I see the community struggling to adapt to both of them because of their scaling.
Yeah, its just frustrating as a sion player from the get go to see him slowly torn apart because his counters arent glaringly obvious, or it takes the ability to kite to make him seem useless. You tried killing Kalista with Sion? May as well afk.
cough Morgana shield * Coughing intensifies*
YARR HARR LEAVE IT TO ME BEING A PIRATE IS OPEN N FREE YOU ARE A PIRATE YARRR ORRRANGES!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lol you actually think they want successful lane tanks? Mundo, maokai, shen, singed, sion, they're just another one lined up to be nerfed because passively farming and waiting for ganks isn't engaging. Sion only does as much damage as pantheon If he is behind, sion only does that kind of damage if people stand in his q like bots. Anyone with a brainstem can dodge it, easily.
I agree, the attention Riot has given him is completely misplaced. The balance team makes changes that are so healthy for this game and then they do this shit that's just completely uncalled for. If there was a Sion that got too "big", it's because the enemy team didn't deal with him correctly and they let him spiral out of control. He is not unique in this way, many other champions have a specific way you must counter them to keep them from becoming too strong.
The fact is that the LoL community hasn't seen Sion very much until recently, he just burst onto the scene and instead of taking stock of his strengths and weaknesses, they all cry OP and QQ on the forums. The balance team forgets what makes Sion balanced because all they hear is nonesense and they don't stick to their guns. Just look at that comment on the 5.6 Patch Notes about Nidalee. They felt like they had to specifically cater to the crowd of Nidalee haters on these forums because they don't have the wherewithal to do what is necessary despite what others think.
Yeah I loved how we had videos of how garbage sion was for months until Dyrus started using him in the LCS. Its just like how laughable twitch was until he got his VU and everyone realized how good he was.
OH MY GOD, YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE VU DID NO FREAKING IDEA I played twitch semi-regularly before the VU, you see, I'm a very very bad player. my mechanics are bad my CS is bad my use of abilities is bad the only reason i'm in gold is because my understanding of the game is good however I got dominated by twitch in a few games, saw him being used in others, and liked him. However I was really bad with twitch, his stealth was hard for me to manage his E was not easy to see, and his W, well i never was sure where it hit. however after the VU Riot made ALL of his abilities clearer and easier to undestand, hence now i play him regularly he wasn't trash before, but now with polishing he's a lot easier to use properly.
He was always a decent champion, he just got a few quality of life updates. Pro players and twitch mains already knew how good he was and he was hard to 'handle' as he was rarely played same thing with new sion, completely new kit with strengths and weaknesses, but no one explores the weaknesses, they just focus on his strengths and chip away at them, just like twitch. You seen sion in the lcs lately? I Haven't.
I know ;3
They nerfed his damage ONE TIME. Cinderhulk indirectly buffed the shit out of Sion. I rarely played Sion before Cinderhulk, and now I'm at a 80% win rate with him in ranked. Turns out bonus health stacked with passive bonus health on kills is hella powerful.
There is a counter to stacking health in %HP damage, many champions possess this capability or they can buy an item called Blade of the Ruined King.
They nerfed his mana costs and his damage and now he's a liability in lane. Do you realize he is one of the squishiest champions at the beginning of the game? He's squisher than Shaco. His base defensive stats are so low because his damage and late game potential are all he has going for him.
Anyone who knows Sion's strengths and weaknesses should know how to completely cripple him in lane. The guy can't all-in worth anything until he gets 3-4 tank items and a good deal of farm. Furthermore, all of his abilities are skill-shots and any champion with an ounce of mobility can get out of the way, unless you're in a team fight. If you're in a team fight before his survivability spikes, you just focus him and you kill him because he is the least useful tank in the game until his power spike, which is half-way through a match.
When the enemy picks Sion, I can't wait to face him now. He's a shadow of his former glory and free LP for the other team.
Don't know about you, but I 1v2'd a Nidalee and LeBlanc as Sion at level 4, so you've obviously played against some pretty bad Sions.
Shaco is meant to be an early game champion, so it makes sense that he starts out with higher health than Sion, and the only reason his health scales higher is because Sion has a passive health scaling on unit kill, which as we have learned from Thresh is a pretty big deal despite the scaling penalties that come with it. So by the time that I back for the first time, I'm already ahead of Shaco in passive health. Once cinderhulk is built, I'm the tankiest character in the game.
Sion's biggest weakness is his early game. You need hella good positioning to gank a lane. He can survive in the jungle extremely well despite the nerfs, so you're pretty much power farming until you hit 6 and start ganking from the tower. After that, Sion becomes an unstoppable monster if you haven't starved him of farm by counter jungling or shutting him down. It will take about 10 seconds and all 5 of your team to take down Sion, and that's implying he doesn't knock all of you up or ult to get away.
I am not saying Sion is OP, but I am going to say that you sound like the textbook old Sion whiners that you can't just point and click to blow somebody up with full AP Sion anymore.
I don't want to be distracting you away from my point and I don't know about any specific scenario you have been a part of. It is no secret Sion scales into his durability over time and with that his weakness is an early game.
However, if Sion's opponent is clever enough to take advantage of this, there is no chance Sion can scale into the threat his team needs him to be unless Sion's team deliberately goes out of their way to protect him. If the enemy team doesn't allow Sion to scale into the threat his team needs, he remains marginal. These tactics to subdue him are simple and effective, anyone with knowledge and patience can pull it off.
I legitimately think people just cant 'handle sion' cause he's the only tank in the game aside from leona who legitimately feels tanky.
Could you tell me what you build for Sion (with cinder)?
Also if you happen to know what skill to pick 1st for jungle sion? His shield?
I pick his shield first solely to get the health stacks rolling. Now that his Q and E got nerfed, I'd recommend you do that as well. As for build, just straight tank:
.
I prefer to give him a little bit of damage and lifesteal for his passive through
and
, but of course that hits his armor and magic resistance (usually Sion has enough health to disregard that though). If you want to continue to stick tank items on him, I'd roll with
or
.
Aight, thanks :)
And what of the players that jungled him pre Cinderhulk and still don't build it on him? ... looks like we're forced to buy the item now to compensate for the nerfs.
Well done.
We cant have successful lane tanks guys, bring them to jungle, oh... wait nvm.
Jungle tanks being decent does not equate to a "tank meta".
^. People are just not used to threatening tanks anymore. They are used to blow them up instantly like any other roles, and they can't do that now.
All your base tank are belong to us.
ALL HAIL THE TROLL KING! 
Enemy tank: Report Trundle for trolling!
I really think it's not "The Tank Meta" yet, we gotta wait and see about item changes that aren't in the jungle. No other item has gotten buffed recently, so I think Riot will leave it here and just try to keep tanks viable.
Honestly. Nothing really has changed. Select tanks got minor buffs, jungle tanks got a new item. Tanks have the same problems they did before. They're just as vulnerable now than ever.
-Buy penetration items -Buy %HP items -Don't cluster together in teamfights so you can be easily chain CC'd -Learn to kite-- most tanks don't have the tools to catch people easily -Ward up so you can avoid an easy initiation by the enemy tank -Don't focus them, obviously -Bait out their moves. Tanks still have long CDs with punishing mana costs. -If they're jungling, steal their buffs. Ever play Amumu without blue? -Buy tenacity and slow resistance. I realize Swiftness isn't a popular choice, but against someone like Sej it'll make all the difference.
Tanks have been dumped on for three seasons now. While I love the tank meta, as a tank player, I still think there's a lot of room for improvement.
-Don't focus them, obviously
I feel like thats not that obvious for some people anymore... "Malphite ulted in, quick, kill him!"
HE ALREADY ULTED! He isn't really a threat anymore, work around him...
Leaving that Malphite with his Cinderhulk aura running on top of your squishies. Yeah, guess that works for losing the team fight, too.
Leaving that Malphite with his Cinderhulk aura running on top of your squishies. Yeah, guess that works for losing the team fight, too.
Takes time to ramp up, does mediocre damage, and is easily reduced by MR. The only reason to focus someone with Cinderhulk is because they have smite and can contest baron or dragon while being alive.
Slow + attack speed slow + damage He'll make you miserable AND if you are in range to attack a high value target, said high value target is also in range of YOU and can retaliate You're probably gonna loose because of Malphite wrecking you at the same time
Slow + attack speed slow + damage He'll make you miserable AND if you are in range to attack a high value target, said high value target is also in range of YOU and can retaliate You're probably gonna loose because of Malphite wrecking you at the same time
Oh no, the tank whats supposed to disrupt is disrupting me? And no, unless he's AP Malph, his damage is negligible compared to his teammates. That's why they die first.
Don't focus the fucking tank.
He's gonna make you die I'm not saying he'll kill you But he's gonna make you die
Honestly, the best way to deal with a tank is to peel them
Ignoring them will make you lose Focusing them will make you lose
He's gonna make you die I'm not saying he'll kill you But he's gonna make you die
Honestly, the best way to deal with a tank is to peel them
Ignoring them will make you lose Focusing them will make you lose
Do you realize how absurdly vague this is? This could be used to describe 90% of the botlane supports. They bring stuff to the team, that's their deal. They set others up for success. The answer is to kill the teammates they're supporting.
Yes and no.
You want to peel Leona.
You want to kill Sona if you expect an extended siege situation so she can't sustain her allies. Or you want to kill her if you have a great initiation but the carry has defensive options and she's the easier target. Else you risk her counter-engaging with her ult and peeling for her AD carry.
But yes you want to deal with tanks because they set up others for success. The difference comes in which tank or support you're dealing with.
I hardly see how ''Peel the tank'' is more absurdly vague then ''Don't focus the tank''.
A lot of the counterplay you listed there (besides the itemization) requires more skill to do successfully than it takes to dive into a teamfight with a tank. Tanks are pretty strong right now, and they are mostly easy to play.
A lot of the counterplay you listed there (besides the itemization) requires more skill to do successfully than it takes to dive into a teamfight with a tank. Tanks are pretty strong right now, and they are mostly easy to play.
Did you not read the thread? Tanks aren't strong right now. Select JUNGLE tanks who synergize really with CInderhulk (AoE + HP scaling) are doing really well. Which doesn't mean a whole lot considering those same tanks were doing really well before. Nothing, absolutely nothing, has been done for tanks (as a whole) to make them better than they were a patch before.
Counterplay is counterplay. It doesn't take Diamond level understanding of the game to realize that if you don't clump, Amumu/Malph/Sej ults won't matter. I'm not disagreeing that tanks aren't easy to play, but this idea that they're hard to counter is absurd. They're the most easily countered class in the entire game.
I just love how riot says they want to promote diversity, yet they have no clue how to balance at all. They nerf all mid and top laners, nerf all early game junglers, nerf snowballing, and call that diversity. All theyre doing is making it to where your team is at a disadvantage if you don't have a tank jungler that can utilize cinderhulk. Basically, all youre gonna see now are tank junglers with heavy cc. I've pretty much given up on this game ever being completely balanced
Kogmaw kind of sucks, he is way too slow.
Kogmaw kind of sucks, he is way too slow.
in lane, yes, plenty of counters and gets ganked easily. but hes late game hyper carry which is what you want against tanks.
Doesn't matter if he is slow if he has 2 super tanks bodygaurding him while he kills everyone else.
Kogmaw kind of sucks, he is way too slow.
Quoth he who is woefully ignorant of the terror known as Juggermaw