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I rather see Ryze unplayable then OP every try to balance him failed and hes mechanics arent healthy

Andrionar··52 votes·4,420 views

"Why isnt Ryze on your rework list?"

"We’re going to try and tackle Ryze before the mid year, we think he’s enough of a problem we need to act sooner . Unclear whether that’ll mean some degree of rework or just significant balance changes." http://www.newsoflegends.com/index.php/tag/ryze/

It's hilarious that poor Twisted fate probably mistakenly came in to Ryze flash range and was unable to get out of snares while until dead, becouse Ryze wasn't even ahead. What's the counter play to this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9s3917_ztE

Obviously, Riot a little bit overdid with recent nerfs to Ryze, becouse they were unable to find a proper fix for him at the moment, but I rather see him unplayable then in the same state as he was in LCS. Ryze is hard - impossible to balance, becouse every try so far have failed and probably requires a Sion level rework.

A lot of Ryze players while trying to prove that he was balanced before these brutal nerfs, are trying to excuse him by using incorrect arguments.

"He had an average - low win rate". An average win rate doesn't mean that champions is balanced, especialy then talking about certain champions like Ryze with hes state before the nerfs.

Ryze was insane in SoloQ if mastered. At level 6 as Darius, Nasus or any other tank/fighter, even with 90+ MR I got wrecked while playing against decent-good Ryze players with nearly any meele champion. Starting from level 6 I got one shoted everytime I was in Ryze range.

I remember one game. I was ahead while playing nasus, I had Spectre's cowl, Mercury threads and KindleGem and a full Health. Enemie Ryze roamed me from mid, being barely one level ahead, while having 2 kills. After pushing the wave, he dived me under my tower. I hardly had enought time to flash out off hes endless cc's, but he fallowed me with hes own flash afterwards for a finish combo. Does it even sound balanced?

Edited: for people who think that Diana and Malzahar are healthy becouse they're immobile. I will tell you what Riot said about them 3-8 months ago in some of theyr posts. Gonna repost them later if I'll be able to find.

According to Riot, Diana isn't well balanced champion, becouse if ahead, she can burst enemie team in a matter of seconds, if she's not ahead, she feels to weak, becouse she has to get in to people faces, but will get focused and killed before being able to make a noticable impact.

According to Riot, Malzahar isn't very exciting to play and doesn't feel fun to play against eather, becouse of hes frustrating kit.

Sorry, for not being clearer and not being able to remember everything, but as I said, I gonna edit my post agen if I'll find these specific Rito posts about diana and Malza.

73 Comments

Zero Skill Tank7 votes

The problem was not that he could flash-combo TF, because many, many champs could do that.

The problem was that he was able to do the same to tanks.

Hayaishi219 votes

{quoted}

The problem was not that he could flash-combo TF, because many, many champs could do that.

The problem was that he was able to do the same to tanks.

He is not even fed and he dropped TF in 3 seconds flat while perma ccing him. That is the problem.

iamleburk2 votes

So how do you feel about Diana?

Andrionar2 votes

{quoted}

So how do you feel about Diana?

She is not in the best spot togather with Malzahar, but Ryze was a lot worse.

Edited: even Riot stated against current Malzahar design and kit, if need I probably could find the link.

Besides, Riot mentioned that they're planing another small rework for Ryze - in the mid year of 2016.

iamleburk2 votes

Diana does that without flash. Tf is really weak with gold card down, almost any mid laner in the game can chunk the shit out of him, some (like Ryze, Diana, Fizz, Brand) would even kill. I agree Ryze is pretty stupid atm and needs yet another rework, but I don't think that particular clip is the best example of that.

Like I have no problem with Ryze being able to do crazy shit like that, but you have to gate it. 5 stacks isn't enough. Imo it should be his ultimate. You ever wonder why Ryze with passive on is 10x better than Ryze with ult on? I think they should put his current passive on his ult (would work fine) and give something like his current ult (needs tuning, but could be done)on his passive.

Anidan1 votes

I honestly don't know what you're even on about with Diana... She has strong burst and everything, but ultimately she's also still melee. It's possible to screw her out of her combo with careful or defensive play from you or your team, but Ryze has no such option to be denied like that due to his combo being ranged and his only skillshot coming in the form of the non-required hit for the CC-chain Q.

Not trying to defend Diana as much as it sounds like, because she can get pretty retarded with her chasing, burst and survivability, but Ryze is largely inexcusable.

iamleburk2 votes

I'm saying she can delete a twisted fate 100-0 in like 3 secs. I don't think that part is the problem, i think the problem is how often he can do it.

Rikari2 votes

Then again, it is Faker, and Pawn used his pick a card on the winions. When Ryze was reworked for the second time (this time) i believe,I was just sitting,waiting,thinking: Hes OP...just unpopular,I will wait for his awakening... http://cdn.sheknows.com/articles/2013/09/Mike/SK/Villians_and_cats/dr-evil-austin-powers-477.jpg

Yfrappefort4 votes

{quoted}

He is not even fed and he dropped TF in 3 seconds flat while perma ccing him. That is the problem.

And the casters are riding Faker's dick as always "Wow Faker with the 1v1 against Pawn!"

Cause it was such a fair and impressive "duel", right?

Looknook1 votes

It is their job to hype up any play that is made. Good or bad they try to get the audience hyped about the plays happening on screen. Whether or not the plays were "fair".

ShinobisDemon4 votes

{quoted}

He is not even fed and he dropped TF in 3 seconds flat while perma ccing him. That is the problem.

you can do the same thing with most assassin mages, including tf himself. Ahri Akali Annie Brand Cassiopeia Diana EkkoFizz Fiora (yes i'm including her) Karma Katarina Khazix Malzahar Lux Lissandra Leblanc Morgana Nidalee Nunu Orianna Talon Syndra Swain TwistedFate Veigar Velkoz Viktor Zed Yasuo

The problem is really the perma cc, most of these champs have 2-3 seconds of cc. Ryze has over 6 seconds solid.

Andrionar1 votes

{quoted}

you can do the same thing with most assassin mages, including tf himself. Ahri Akali Annie Brand Cassiopeia Diana EkkoFizz Fiora (yes i'm including her) Karma Katarina Khazix Malzahar Lux Lissandra Leblanc Morgana Nidalee Nunu Orianna Talon Syndra Swain TwistedFate Veigar Velkoz Viktor Zed Yasuo

The problem is really the perma cc, most of these champs have 2-3 seconds of cc. Ryze has over 6 seconds solid.

Becouse he had ROA, I'm quit sure that he wouldn't have died as fast from other high burst champions if they weren't ahead, so I kinda don't agree. But as you said, it's not the point.

Andrionar2 votes

{quoted}

The problem was not that he could flash-combo TF, because many, many champs could do that.

The problem was that he was able to do the same to tanks.

If you have read whole post, you probably noticed that I used tank as primary example.

Jet Sett7 votes

I'm watching this Ryze stack his passive, and Tf not respecting his range, should we nerf Annie and Malz since they have strong flash combos with better CC? Not trying to be rude, but he was clearly getting his passive stacked, and Ryze is clearly a threat with 3 or more stacks.

Dominick Destine7 votes

{quoted}

It's hilarious that poor Twisted fate probably mistakenly came in to Ryze flash range and died.

Ryze ; Incredibly immobile. With very low range spells. And mainly single target with small AoE radius potential.

Twisted Fate; Semi-global teleport. Point-click long duration single target stun. Long range AoE poke.

Of course at close range Ryze will destroy Twisted Fate. If Twisted Fate was even remotely even to Ryze in close range combat, Ryze would be a complete garbage pick.

Cavemantero1 votes

missed point completely. Ryze does that to tanks not just TF.

Dominick Destine1 votes

{quoted}

missed point completely. Ryze does that to tanks not just TF.

Sure, but nowhere near as easily or effectively as against TF, TF is paper and gets torn to shreds by pretty much anyone that catches him ; Amumu Anivia Annie Diana Darius Graves Jayce Leblanc Khazix Nocturne Tryndamere Zed Viktor MonkeyKing Fizz Fiora Akali Ahri MasterYi Pantheon Riven Talon Vayne Brand Rengar Syndra XinZhao Jax Veigar Twitch

Andrionar1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v5tVtUqv,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-02-14T23:09:39.060+0000)

Ryze ; Incredibly immobile. With very low range spells. And mainly single target with small AoE radius potential.

Twisted Fate; Semi-global teleport. Point-click long duration single target stun. Long range AoE poke.

Of course at close range Ryze will destroy Twisted Fate. If Twisted Fate was even remotely even to Ryze in close range combat, Ryze would be a complete garbage pick.

At close range he was able to destroy anyone.

stealthfox945 votes

Yeah Ryze isn't fun to watch in LCS either. I felt bad for the TF in that video. No nerf, buff or rework can truly fix him.

Andrionar3 votes

{quoted}

Yeah Ryze isn't fun to watch in LCS either. I felt bad for the TF in that video. No nerf, buff or rework can truly fix him.

A full rework means changes to champion merchanics. Do you remember how old Sion looked? Now he's totaly differnet champion.

Laisenberg1 votes

{quoted}

A full rework means changes to champion merchanics. Do you remember how old Sion looked? Now he's totaly differnet champion.

Is sion working for you now?

Andrionar1 votes

{quoted}

Is sion working for you now?

Yes and I'm saying this without being sarcastic. I actuly law hes kit, but he definetely need a few buffs.

Cowgirl Ed4 votes

I rather see Ryze at a negative winrate tbh

MunchCrunchLunch4 votes

yeah the other day i was going against a ryze as ekko. and I was going somewhat durable. I had 2 components of ROA. all he had. is tear. he was afk for a cpl minutes I was a cpl levels ahead. I get him with both Qs and an E in my stun with TLD proc I had him down to 50%. then he proceeded to delete me with just a tear and I couldn't do shit about it. he was 2 levels under me with half the farm.

Hemulen Magi3 votes

I think the counterplay could have been to yellow-card him, but yeah, it sucks. Ryze needs some work. Landing 1 skill-shot should not instantly decide the outcome of a fight, yet Ryze's followup chain combo pretty much ensures that you die while cc-locked if he is even slightly ahead. I don't know that Ryze is more toxic than some other champs though, like Riven/Ahri, who can also kill you after landing one CC but don't even need to flash in order to gapclose...

I think Ryze is in the same category as Annie. They might be a bit toxic/binary, but not quite as oppressive as certain other champions. As for Malzahar, I don't think he's even really a problem considering he is immobile and suppresses himself in teamfights while being simple to counterbuild during laning. I think Malzahar is less frustrating/problematic than a lot of common mid laners (Zed Ahri). People don't like getting CC-locked or bursted, but the balance team needs to be careful not to play favorites.

DorkunedAuras3 votes

cough ryze doesn't need to lane a skillshot to kill you. His CC is targetted, and his skillshot is being thrown at a snared target.

Hemulen Magi1 votes

Okay. I normally see Ryze lead with the skill shot or throw it simultaneously with the snare so that the skill shot occasionally misses if you try to dodge it, which can mess up his combo. I don't play Ryze and I haven't seen him very often lately. I have seen him a few times since that rework, and my experience with him varied quite a lot. It seemed like some matchups (or it could have been the Ryze player's skill level) were extremely frustrating while other times the Ryze seemed like almost no threat at all. I think he should be looked at, but I am not convinced he is more frustrating than certain other champions which may be higher priority.

DorkunedAuras1 votes

I 100% guarantee it's a skill level thing. Ryze's combo during his 6 seconds at lvl 9 is capable of killing basically anything when done perfectly.

Hemulen Magi1 votes

Yeah, I feel like that's sort of the same situation when playing against a Riven that understands how to abuse animation canceling mechanics. I think that Ryze should be on the list of champions to fix, but I don't feel that he should be dumpstered unless if a handful of other broken/problematic champions are going into the dumpster with him to keep him company. I am mainly saying that Riot shouldn't play favorites in this case.

Kuroi863 votes

His play style isn't something that leaves a lot of room for error. Riots been trying to turn him into a machine gun mage and that leaves a lot of openings for abuse cases.

ThatHaleState2 votes

Ryze was balanced. He's useless except for those 6-8 seconds hes in his passive. You cant lose to a ryze who just hits you with Q's and tries to go in for a 3 move combo. He has clear counter play. Stay away from him while his passive is up. Oh you got flashed on? React faster and flash away. Hes 2/3 point and click, so he HAS to be in range to do anything. Stay out of range and your fine. As soon as his passive goes down? Blow him up? Cant blow him up? Hard push him to tower and roam. Im just tired of people bitching because they die to ryze when they put themselves in the literal worst position to fight him.

He probably needed some number tweaks on abilities, but to cap his passive at 5 is just absurd. Riot has gone to far with this one

DorkunedAuras2 votes

"flash faster" When pros can't flash in the .01 seconds between ryze flashing and ryze snaring, you can't either. NO ONE CAN.

Adalore1 votes

There is also the reality of buffered actions. Ryze can BUFFER his snare and flash towards you leaving just his cast time that will STILL snare you because it was started before you flashed.

At least I am pretty sure you can do that, even then the flash click is still extremely stupid tight timing that human reaction times can't react to.

ThatHaleState1 votes

{quoted}

"flash faster" When pros can't flash in the .01 seconds between ryze flashing and ryze snaring, you can't either. NO ONE CAN.

If Wild turtle can Flash a malphite ult from fog of war, the length of a malphite away, you can flash the same time ryze flashes. If your expecting it, you acn flash it, if youre not expecting it, then youre gonna and deserve to die anyway

DorkunedAuras1 votes

He has the third of a second that malph was moving. Because ryze can buffer the snare and flash, you have to flash BEFORE he does, or you're automatically getting snared.

Only Play Darius2 votes

Just remove his root outright. It looks cool and all but fact is that it holds you there and forces you to eat a barrage of spells with no say in the matter (and no way to fight back if you're melee)

Karma Deified2 votes

I don't want him to be made unplayable, then op. It seems like a waste of time.

Rikari2 votes

Those seem to be his only states. OP or unplayable. Remember top lane single target bully late game carry Ryze?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6RqosKxm0M

ulted in. flashed out. died.

EmollientNut02 votes

Funny, just made a post about this myself. I'm personally a little tired of the roulette of "Is Ryze gamebreakingly good or bad" every patch.

They need to give him an actual rework. Not a S5 "slap a skillshot on him" rework.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/XsXExNsR-at-this-point-just-disable-ryze-until-you-give-him-a-full-rework?comment=00000000000000000000

TeCoolMage2 votes

Q goes through minions but still damages them. Still stops at champs. W goes ignores minions but is a skillshot/ground AoE and is only a strong slow

There, Ryze has gone from a Mage who has an advantage by slowly and painfully killing whatever he catches with little counterplay, to a Mage whose identity is to bypass minion waves and deal constant damage that's hard but still possible to run away from (shorter range, better zoning Mage version of Ashe?)

Vistha Kai2 votes

Oh, but he doesn't need a Sion-level rework.

Wait. Scratch that. Cheese for no one. He wouldn't need it, if "reverting the last rework" was an option with Riot.

Sadly, the only time they will admit a fuck-up is when the game is in a completely inoperable state and even then it's not a given.

Andrionar1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v5tVtUqv,comment-id=0017,timestamp=2016-02-15T17:58:04.475+0000)

Oh, but he doesn't need a Sion-level rework.

Wait. Scratch that. Cheese for no one. He wouldn't need it, if "reverting the last rework" was an option with Riot.

Sadly, the only time they will admit a fuck-up is when the game is in a completely inoperable state and even then it's not a given.

You see. I'm sure they wanted to make him more then an average champion. It seems that Riot wanted him to be balanced cc machine, with very high demage, but not broken. They forgot at least to implement more weaknesses, if he has any, for more obvious counter play.

Vistha Kai1 votes

The thing is, he never was suppose to be something like this. He was a tanky low-range DPS mage with unique scaling.

Then they did their best to make a CC burst-y mage-y tanky-ish thing, while preserving 80% of his old kit.

It was doomed to fail. Just like Karma and Cassio before him.

5050BS1 votes

I would love for him to be like this.

Where he plays like Graves

EvilRabbitt1 votes

If they change the root to a slow, maybe some interaction options? But the bloody murder screams will be immense.

GenghisEmo2 votes

or the root can be a skillshot? I'd prefer a Skillshot. Miss, ur punished

FastAsHeck1 votes

The problem is that it didn't matter what TF did. It all depends on how fast and accurate are Faker's fingers, nothing else matters. Hoping that your enemy is bad is not counterplay. Yeah he could have stunned him but he had picked blue already, and being a free kill every time Ryze has his flash up is far from healthy.

Andrionar2 votes

{quoted}

The problem is that it didn't matter what TF did. It all depends on how fast and accurate are Faker's fingers, nothing else matters. Hoping that your enemy is bad is not counterplay. Yeah he could have stunned him but he had picked blue already, and being a free kill every time Ryze has his flash up is far from healthy.

Even if it only means that only a few players can learn to do such thing with Ryze, besides Faker, it's still unfair and sets those players at huge adventage over others, who have mastered theyr own champions to.

ThatHaleState1 votes

Btw TF's flash WAS NOT UP if you look closely. It had a few second left, otherwise the pro player pawn would have easily flashed out in the time TF took 2 steps in between the 1st and 2nd prison.

Andrionar1 votes

Guys, it doesn't matter, Tf had fucking ROA and still got deleted like without it.

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