Why Can't Tahm Kench's Passive Get the Same Treatment as Braum Passive?

JerulEon·Feb 15, 2016·136 votes·5,231 views

After you proc the fourth hit of Braum's passive, you have to wait a few seconds before applying the passive on the same target. I propose that after Tahm Kench eats an enemy, the enemy has a short timer before TK can reapply his stacks on the same enemy.

I feel like this needs to be done. Instead of nerfing his raw stats, make it so he can't perma--cc his targets like he can now. His Q and W are on such low cooldown it's ridiculous.

76 Comments

TroiannFeb 15, 201647 votes

I thought you were gonna ask why teammates couldn't proc the passive. And I was ready to laugh.

But yes TK is really fucking annoying.

dunkeroniFeb 15, 201613 votes

It's because Braum's passive acts on its own. If you hit them enough, they get stunned, and this acts as a bonus to his other cc and abilities.

Tahm Kench on the other hand has abilities that are empowered by the passive stacks, and consequently his kit is built around that passive. His moveset was designed with the intention of using the stacks and only playing around them. If there was a timer on it, then he would have to be buffed in other ways to compensate.

allthemuslimsFeb 15, 20162 votes

{quoted}

It's because Braum's passive acts on its own. If you hit them enough, they get stunned, and this acts as a bonus to his other cc and abilities.

Tahm Kench on the other hand has abilities that are empowered by the passive stacks, and consequently his kit is built around that passive. His moveset was designed with the intention of using the stacks and only playing around them. If there was a timer on it, then he would have to be buffed in other ways to compensate.

Or he's too strong right now, so this would be a nerf to introduce legitimate counterplay. We aren't taking a weak/neutral champion and nerfing them below viability, this nerf would be lowering the power level of a currently overtuned champion. The goal isn't to maintain his current strength.

theArtifactsFeb 15, 20165 votes

He just did get nerfed. If you cant beat him then you need to practice more.

Champion SkinFeb 16, 20163 votes

Well depends beating Tahm 1v1 isn't always all that easy... Though on other side Tahm isn't always that great in teamfights (as all of his abilities are single target and somewhat unreliable as it usually is harder for a melee champion to get in range and stick to targets in teamfights especially since Tahm has no mobility)

BolwinkelFeb 15, 20161 votes

Also, allies can proc it too.

TheDiffFeb 16, 20161 votes

Allies cannot proc TK's passive, that is for Braum.

IcyPepperFeb 19, 20161 votes

I believe that's what he was referring to...

alfavhunterFeb 15, 20169 votes

If that was done he would need buffs, his R passive was nerfed because he was op, he isn't now, nerf him again and he needs buffs

OyddAWqJ5rFeb 16, 20162 votes

Is that why he's still banned in 58.7% of all games? Out of 120+ champions?

Sure he sucks when countered by an unfavorable team comp but when a team isn't built around kiting or poke he goes to town on them. And when the comps are in his favor? There's just no chance then.

LordGeovanniFeb 15, 20168 votes

that would be good if your other abilites didnt require that passive to be good

Supreme Senpai69Feb 15, 20164 votes

His Q still slows 70% and his E is unaffected by it lol

Lord Graves IIIFeb 16, 20162 votes

His E is a strictly defensive move....and it still got nerfed a few patches ago.

Also, a 70% slow at that range that gets minion blocked isnt really all that great. It would need to deal serious damage to be worthwhile, and Tahm doesnt have that kind of damage on his kit to make a slow like that work for him much. Rumble Velkoz Rengar

Supreme Senpai69Feb 16, 20162 votes

Thought we were talkin about support Tahm Kench, forgot he goes top too.

Lord Graves IIIFeb 16, 20162 votes

Vel Koz is a support. :P

Kidding aside I was just talking more about the slow in general. Not specifically as a support. A 70% slow aint that hot. What makes Tahm scary is that hes gonna lick you again in 4 seconds and that time is probably gonna stun you. The thing is that he has to work way harder for this than the other person does to avoid it.

Tahm kench isnt exactly amumu, or even leona, in that he tends to lack straight damage and engage power to really make the most of his moves usually.

Supreme Senpai69Feb 18, 20162 votes

Tbh I'd rather take away his Q stunning, let him eat people with his W still, but give him an actual passive. It's frustrating when he has CC to permastun you with his Q/W but when you play as him it doesn't feel all that rewarding.

For CarthageFeb 15, 20168 votes

Because Braum:

Can have his teammates apply stacks for him.
Does not have the usefulness of his passive tied to mana costs or an ability cooldown.
Can get the full effects of his stacks on multiple people at once while Tahm must pick and choose which enemy is actually affected by the stacks on them (in other words, stacks do jack shit unless Tahm actually follows up with one of the abilities that are affected by them).

That's why he can't have Braum's treatment.

SpecterVonBarenFeb 15, 20167 votes

He's fine now, and the reason his W and Q are on such low cooldowns is because his ult is useless for combat. Quit with the "Tahm is so OP!" crap, he's been nerfed enough by this point that he's perfectly fine.

GinjavitisFeb 15, 20167 votes

{quoted}

He's fine now, and the reason his W and Q are on such low cooldowns is because his ult is useless for combat. Quit with the "Tahm is so OP!" crap, he's been nerfed enough by this point that he's perfectly fine.

You do realize his ult adds the most DPS to his kit, right? It might not have the burst of his e on a tank, but adding 150+ damage on his auto attacks and q for free is most definitely not useless for combat, why do people not know abilities before they comment on a champion.

SpecterVonBarenFeb 15, 20161 votes

See, this is what I'm talking about, his ult active is so useless for anything but getting to lane faster that people just think his ult is just a passive and nothing else.

His ult was also harshly nerfed in its scaling. At late game with full build and max ranks in his ult now he can get 160 magic damage on his abilities and autos, this is pathetic damage, it's good for a tank but look at someone like Xerath who, with just 400 AP, can do 540 magic damage with one Q while Tahm needs a full build to do 420 magic damage with one Q, or Kayle who can deal 90 magic damage per hit with just AP, not taking into account the on hit items she could build to increase this further like Nashors or Rageblade while buying attack speed to increase this DPS and having a ranged auto.

Was Tahm too strong before? Yes, his numbers were too strong, but he's perfectly fine now and the only reason no one sees this is because they can't get past the ingrained mentality that they need to ban him.

GinjavitisFeb 15, 20162 votes

{quoted}

See, this is what I'm talking about, his ult active is so useless for anything but getting to lane faster that people just think his ult is just a passive and nothing else.

His ult was also harshly nerfed in its scaling. At late game with full build and max ranks in his ult now he can get 160 magic damage on his abilities and autos, this is pathetic damage, it's good for a tank but look at someone like Xerath who, with just 400 AP, can do 540 magic damage with one Q while Tahm needs a full build to do 420 magic damage with one Q, or Kayle who can deal 90 magic damage per hit with just AP, not taking into account the on hit items she could build to increase this further like Nashors or Rageblade while buying attack speed to increase this DPS and having a ranged auto.

Was Tahm too strong before? Yes, his numbers were too strong, but he's perfectly fine now and the only reason no one sees this is because they can't get past the ingrained mentality that they need to ban him.

The ult that can bring him and a friend is useless? It's a semi global active that's stronger at ganking than TF, also comparing him to damage carries is stupid. Let's compare the survivablility of xerqth and Kayle to tahm with his grey health up, or does that not fit your agenda? Tahm gets survivablility, cc, a free friendly zhonyas or an enemy cc, damage, and semi global ult, and he can do plenty of damage with only base stats and hp

SpecterVonBarenFeb 15, 20163 votes

When was the last time you saw a Tahm use his ult to try and gank someone outside of competitive play? Further, when's the last time you saw a Tahm use his ult that way and actually get anything out of it other than getting himself and anyone that's with him CC'd immediately? Even further, TF has an instant hard CC that he can hit someone with as soon as he gets somewhere, Tahm only has a skillshot slow that can be blocked by minions and he's also slower than TF.

He can do decent damage, but he no longer does ridiculous amounts of damage like before as well as having several other nerfs, you listed off a number as if it was huge but I showed you how it's still far outclassed by carry damage and he gets tankiness in exchange for this, in other words, trade offs. Stop basing your opinion on his balance based on what he was like when LCS first picked him up and instead reassess him based on how he is now.

WarlockLawFeb 15, 20162 votes

Also he's fairly easy to kite if you actually try to, until he gets his 3 stacks he has a delayed slow that shows its hit box and nothing else. Dodge the skillshot and don't stay melee.

His winrate as a support is garbage and as top lane is acceptable if not a tad weak (46% and 48% respectively, as well as average play rates for both roles.

GinjavitisFeb 15, 20161 votes

{quoted}

When was the last time you saw a Tahm use his ult to try and gank someone outside of competitive play? Further, when's the last time you saw a Tahm use his ult that way and actually get anything out of it other than getting himself and anyone that's with him CC'd immediately? Even further, TF has an instant hard CC that he can hit someone with as soon as he gets somewhere, Tahm only has a skillshot slow that can be blocked by minions and he's also slower than TF.

He can do decent damage, but he no longer does ridiculous amounts of damage like before as well as having several other nerfs, you listed off a number as if it was huge but I showed you how it's still far outclassed by carry damage and he gets tankiness in exchange for this, in other words, trade offs. Stop basing your opinion on his balance based on what he was like when LCS first picked him up and instead reassess him based on how he is now.

when have I seen it? Quite a bit, tahm supports have delivered me playing Morgana's to many team fights as well as enemy tahms delivering Darius and other carries to cut off my escape route, just because you don't see it don't say it doesn't happen...I haven't seen a reksai ult in a few weeks, but that's because I haven't played against one, see what I did there? And it's not even debatable what's more potent, TF with a stun, or tahm with easy to land, low cd slows along with another champion showing up during a gank. Yes his damage is outclassed, and it's supposed to be, but to say he has "decent" damage is hiding the fact that he has a 32% max health hard cc nuke. You've shown me nothing except a bunch of assumptions about what I've seen and what I'm basing it around, nothing more. What separates him from carries is them building pure damage and being rewarded with damage, whereas tahm builds pure tank and is rewarded with damage as well.

SpecterVonBarenFeb 15, 20161 votes

As have you shown me nothing but your own opinion as to why he's still OP. I've seen no one else se his ult effectively in weeks, at most he makes someone run away in a different direction or they just stop and fight him and whoever he brought with him the same as if they'd walked there. He gets damage for building tank because if he didn't then no one would pick him. His lit active is a non combat lit and his E is purely selfish and sees one use per fight unlike many other tank abilities that can be used multiple times. If he didn't gain damage then all he would have is his q and w and regardless of what people say, that is not enough reason to pick him.

You like to talk about his potential damage or potential utility but don't take into account what he'll realistically be able to do in a game.

Champion SkinFeb 16, 20161 votes

Tahm ult is mostly useless yes... the only things it is useful for are... Getting away when being collapsed on (it is a lot quicker then recalling) Cutting people off (jumping in front of enemies being chased by allies leaving them with nowhere to run though you might end up in a bad spot if your allies stop chasing them) Getting to lane quicker

The biggest problem I see with Tahm though is that in soloQ he simply isn't all that useful... he has a hard time getting anything done in teamfights other then denying enemy burst (assassins) but if the enemy team doesn't rely on burst he doesn't really bring much at all except some unreliable single target CC and durability (if the enemy team chose to target him)

SpecterVonBarenFeb 16, 20161 votes

Not to mention that everyone on a team has burst except for maybe the support so even if he uses his W to save someone, the enemy team will just burst down someone else.

DengedenFeb 15, 20167 votes

He's already dead, leave him be, the poor fishy.

AziriouslyFeb 15, 20165 votes

Tahm's already been overnerfed, don't kill him.

Doctor JarvisFeb 15, 20165 votes

"Tahm's already been overnerfed, don't kill him." "already been overnerfed, don't kill." "been overnerfed, don't." "overnerfed" They reverted a damage buff they gave him and reduced the time the stacks are up by TWO seconds (which was also a buff reversion. That's not overnerfed that's just fixing bad decision making.

AziriouslyFeb 15, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Doctor Jarvis,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v5WUBVoO,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2016-02-15T18:02:48.448+0000)

"Tahm's already been overnerfed, don't kill him." "already been overnerfed, don't kill." "been overnerfed, don't." "overnerfed" They reverted a damage buff they gave him and reduced the time the stacks are up by TWO seconds (which was also a buff reversion. That's not overnerfed that's just fixing bad decision making.

That doesn't change the fact that Tahm's a horrible champion right now, adding that damage reduction with the AA range reduction and nerf to his shield. Any competent top laner can beat him or at least not die to him, while his only usefulness as a support is to save someone from being picked off by CC.

Champion SkinFeb 16, 20161 votes

Tahm isn't that good of a support yeah... Honestly Braum does most of what Tahm does but better at the cost of having less damage (though Tahm does lose most of his damage when he uses his W to protect allies) Braum can protect allies while allowing them to deal damage and he often can more reliably stun targets with his passive and of course his ult can be very powerful in teamfights

LordGeovanniFeb 16, 20161 votes

by less damage im assumeing you mean tahms ability to eat an enemy

JasiwelFeb 15, 20165 votes

I just wish Tahm couldn't stun and Devour you in one sequence. For everything else he's able to do, it's frustrating when he has two forms of hard CC.

GenHeroFeb 15, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I just wish Tahm couldn't stun and Devour you in one sequence. For everything else he's able to do, it's frustrating when he has two forms of hard CC.

but thats tahms only means to kill someone, without both he wouldn't be able to kill anyone who isn't braindead

JasiwelFeb 15, 20162 votes

The problem shows up when all he has to do is build HP/Defensive items. Unlike other tanks, his damage is a burst that keeps applying over and over again, making him either non-confrontational or a damage sponge.

All I'm saying is that he should be forced to build some sort of hybrid offensive if he wants to deal the damage he does, as was the original intention of his damage sources being RoA/Liandry's/Rylai's. Even Amumu/Maokai/Malphite have to invest their stats in some form of AP to have the kind of damage Tahm has by buying Defensive HP items.

HeresyUntoFedexFeb 16, 20161 votes

{quoted}

but thats tahms only means to kill someone, without both he wouldn't be able to kill anyone who isn't braindead

Isn't he a suppressor/disengage-tank?

Champion SkinFeb 18, 20161 votes

Disengage? Tahm has no good disengage... he can save 1 ally... but he can't really disengage a full blown teamfight... To do that you would need something like Braum ult, Janna ult, Bard ult (maybe if it is really good?) or something like Zyra ult can be really good to counter engage

Tahm usually does 1 out of 2 things.. he either tries to stick on to 1 target by hitting Q on them repeatedly and then devouring them and eventually killing them Or he sticks close to allies and use his W to save one of them and slow some enemies with his Q (if him keeping that 1 ally alive doesn't turn the fight around he doesn't really provide much for his team)

HeresyUntoFedexFeb 19, 20161 votes

Disengaging is disengaging, no matter the size of the engagement. It might be not too amazing and for only one person, but it's a part of his kit that was greatly emphasized(most likely because he seems to be built on 'rule of cool' with synergy and team position being an after-thought).

While the likes of Braum acts like a literal wall(or giant ancient door) railroading his foes away from his team, Tahm is like a crappy Taxi for one, made out of random car pieces and just annoying to be around for other drivers.

Champion SkinFeb 19, 20161 votes

Well then there is the fact that even if Tahm eats an ally that doesn't really mean that Tahm himself will be able to run away (with that ally) though he is more likely to be able to simply because of how tanky he usually is

Braum does most of what Tahm does but better... which is sad because I love playing Tahm (when it comes to utility and being a support though Tahm is slightly better in some situations and of course he is better as a top laner) Well I will just keep playing Tahm as a support (despite knowing that it is a bad idea just because it is fun XD)

JESUSSAYSNOFeb 15, 20164 votes

He's not even good right now. I dont understand why he's being portrayed as this impossible beast, when he has a 46% winrate this patch.

Glory to GodFeb 15, 20164 votes

Because braum's passive is way easier to proc and you dont even have to use spells to stun the target. Damn I'm a genious.

LordGeovanniFeb 16, 20161 votes

also braum gets extra damage on on the back end of his passive while its on the stun is on cooldown on the person

SociopathFriendFeb 15, 20162 votes

Braum's passive can get multiple people and can be finished by your teamates to get multiple stuns. Kench is the only one who can inflict his stacks and can only chomp on one person.

HellChimeFeb 15, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Braum's passive can get multiple people and can be finished by your teamates to get multiple stuns. Kench is the only one who can inflict his stacks and can only chomp on one person.

This, you guys forget he can only focus "ONE" champ while braum can use his passive on multiple champs. I bet all the people who are complaining about him are top mains and don't know how to stand behind creeps or dodge skill shots.

Jet SettFeb 15, 20162 votes

Probably because Tahm is the one who can CC someone with those stacks on them, Braum's team can stun themselves after Braum hits them once, but Tahm is the one who has to do it, and his CC is all single target unless he uses devour for a minion group slow, but that isn't very effective. The issue is Tahm's high single target CC that's readily available to him, making sure anyone out of position gets killed by his team, but then again. Blitz does a better job of position punishing. I can see why Tahm is a problem, but I have honestly never personally had a problem with him.

LatetotheRaceFeb 16, 20162 votes

The problem I think is that riot believes Tahm is still a top laner. I see him top/jg once for every ten times as a support. (That's when he isn't banned lol) He's kind of like Poppy support, and as such riot is balancing him like it. If we want him to be nerfed/balanced then we actually need to move him support, and remove his viability as a top laner.

Champion SkinFeb 18, 20161 votes

Tahm actually isn't all that good of a support

What Tahm brings as a support is A single target slow/stun (most often a slow) and a single target Zhonyas (which allows you to move allies or damage enemies however it has a really short range and Tahm has no mobility which can make it difficult to use at times) And some decent damage (mostly relying on actually using his W for damage not saving allies)

Oh and also Tahm's laning phase as a support isn't all that great as he doesn't have much presence in lane (his W isn't all that useful in lane since using it on the enemy usually isn't possible and using it to pull out the ADC still usually means that Tahm lose the trade especially given how much it drains Tahm's mana to use W)

As a support Braum does most of what Tahm does... but better... Braum stun is more reliable (especially against multiple targets) Braum can protect allies while allowing them to deal damage and he can protect multiple allies (though Tahm is better at protecting against single target assassins especially those that don't use projectiles) Braum is much better in teamfights a lot thanks to his ult (and being able to protect more allies and more easily stun multiple targets)

Though Tahm does have more damage and can be a lot better against certain assassins (and Tahm is better in smaller skirmishes/fights thanks to his abilities being decently strong against single targets)