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The Jungle Creed

Lysdexic1··14 votes·1,255 views

Hey guys, I am a jungle main (not terribly high in the rankings but pretty solid in my understanding of how the game works). I created this post a few months back, with a very good reception from the community. It is buried now, but the prevalent problems for us junglers still remain. So i decided to revive it. It is essentially a list of rules us junglers follow and may help to explain to some people who don't jungle exactly why we do what we do (or don't do.)

  1. Giving away buffs. Usually we have a couple rules of thumb for this: Is your mid laner losing? How badly? Could they get back into it by getting this buff or will it just go to the enemy laner as soon as it happens? If the laner is resourceless, we will normally not give the buff away if we have mana. If we are ALSO manaless however, it comes down to who can use the CDR better (usually the midlaner in this case unless the jungler's main ganking tool is gated by high cooldowns (Rammus Q and Zac E for examples).

  2. Ganking. This is normally just a situational thing but there are a few cases where we resolutely won't gank for you. For example if you have been raging and flaming at us all game, even if you are ahead. We don't like you, you are insulting us, why would we help you? If you have fed 3+ kills to the enemy without a jungle gank in a short period of time, we will normally consider that lane lost and try to help the other lanes get fed to compensate. What's going through our minds at this point is "better one lane loses than they all do." I assure all you laners that it is nothing personal, it happens to everybody and we are not mad at you (well, I can't speak for everyone but I still love you), but we would still like to win and not bandage your ego a little bit. If you are over extending and pushing to their tower despite being way behind, we are not going to help you. That is just a free kill waiting to happen. In an even lane or one you are winning in, sure; because that can easily be turned into a successful countergank. Also (Thanks Hentai Messiah) junglers tend to prioritize mid lane for the snowball pressure and dragon control that their damage gives us. So if we are ganking for them instead of your lane please be patient with us, we cannot be on every side of the map at once.

  3. We are not your personal slaves. We are not going to do whatever you want, whenever you want. We have our own job in the game which we have to make sure we are doing, and it is only one part ganking. We have to worry about objective control, farming, warding (my weakness .) and keeping track of their jungler. If we see a good opportunity, or know that the enemy jungler is on his way, we will make a beeline for your lane, but it will be on OUR terms. Pings are still helpful to let us know you are ready for a gank; but please, do not automatically assume that we will.

I hope this clears up some confusion between laners and junglers and helps to make this community just a little bit stronger. :)

19 Comments

Sire Hippington3 votes

I'll give some advice for both junglers and laners from the perspective of a toplane main that plays alot mid and adc aswell:

1)Giving away buffs: I agree on your take but would like to add some. There are 5 people, and anyone can potentially profit from buffs. If mid and jungle are both manaless, take a look at other lanes. Toplane mages like lissandra or lulu can profite alot, and even bruisers like jax will be incredible happy with a blue, and also bot lane can make great use of a bluebuff, especially on supports. This also becomes important later on, if you midlaner already hs grail and thus cdr and alot mana, it often is better to give the blue to someone else that might meed it, especially poke-carrys like Ez or Varus profit alot from it. As a sidenote, blue also gives energie regen, and contrair to public belive, every energie champ has god damn energie problems and can make good use from a blue. Also, don't forget about red. If you can take blue for your self, you might think about giving red to a laner instead. Especially for toplaners that are ahead, a red can lead to massive snowballing as the slow allows for no escape from them. Also, since the preseason, it often is better to give red to your tank rather than the adc in the late, as it gives %health regen and the slow on ranged is rather weak. It also greatly increases the threat of your tank with the truedamage, makeing it harder to ignore him.

2)Ganking: If you go for a gank, use the 'moveing to'(or what it's called) ping, so your laner not only knows that you are coming, but also from where. If your laner is low and has a huge creepwave infront of him, don't expect followup, he probably would die to the creeps if he tries to. Instead, try to zone the enemy laner(and keep an i on the map for eventual counterganks), so your laner can savely farm the big creepwave. Especially if your laner is behind, a gank doesn't need to be a kill to be succesfull, costing the other laner some health and mana often is enough to swing the lane in your favour, and uoning an enemy to allow your laner a bit freefarm can be enough for him to catch up again. Takeing your laners farm if he's behind is also a bad idea(unless he's dead and definitly can't get it ofc) Also, if one of your laners does well, don't think you don't need to gank that lane. If your laner is ahead, it often means an easy kill, allowing you to pick up some feed aswell, and it's less vulnerable to counterganks as you are likely to win 2v2. It's also often possible to towerdive, just ask your laner if he'S confident to do so and make sure you have deepwards to avoid suprises. As a laner, comunicate with your jungler, ping if the enemy jungler ganks so he can either come to help, or atleast knows where he is so he can go for dragon or another gank without fearing a countergank. If your jungler comes for an gank and you feel like it's a bad idea, use the retreat ping and if possible tell him it's a bad idea right now(like he comes when you are oom and rather low)

3)While i can only speak for my self, i'm very well aware that junglers have their own problems, but ganking is part of their job. I'm not asking for baybysiting in every game but it's a good idea to set right prioritys at the beginning of your game. If you have a very snowbally toplaner like riven or Ireia, try to set them ahead early on, they can easily snowball out of controll with a early lead while at the same time they become pretty useless if falling behind. If your toplaner dies once on such a champ, react fast, try to get him back into the game asap, if you wait to long there is little you can do and you face a 4v5(more or less) Midlaners usually can do better without help, as they have far shorter distance to theri tower, and they usually have ranged tools for lasthits, so even though midlane is rather convinient to gank, don't forget about the sidlanes, especially top snowballs way harder in both directions(unless you have a very utillity foused champ like malph).

4)other stuff If a laner, especially midlaner, is winning the lane, try to comunicate and roam together. If he can give backup, counterjungleing is much less risky, and you can easly deploy deep wards. 3 vs 1 dives both top and mid are rather easy if you know what you do(just make sure you have enough vision so it stays a 3vs1) If you have aoe-ults, try to get a lvl 6 4v2 gank bot, it usually translates into a easy baron. If you go counterjungling, ping so your team knows it and can reakt faster for backup. Especially for laners: deep wards are awsome! If you have a ward in the river brush, you often won't see the jungler till it's to late, and your jungler will certainly not have enough time to come for an countergank. If you ward at the jungleentrance in the river, you and your jungler have more time to react. Other great wardplaces are behind redbuff or the blue-brush(vision on blue and gromp if placed right) A very important thin for everyone: if you see the enemy jungler, ping! Don't ecpect the rest of your team to notice him aswell, cause they most likely don't. The positon of the enemy jungler very important, not only because of ganks, it could also allow to sneak a dragon or go for a all-in or gank without having to fear a countergank while also helping at counterjungling. If you ping and yout team already noticed, nothing happens atall, but if they diddn't you might just caused your team to turn a death of your mate into a succesfull countergank with 2 kills. This is probably one of the parts i screw most, both pingiing if i see one and noticing someone passing my ward in the firstplace.

Quite a wall of text, but i hope it sheds some more light on the lane-jungle relation.

Lysdexic11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uhNRtYMf,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-01-05T05:21:57.472+0000)

I'll give some advice for both junglers and laners from the perspective of a toplane main that plays alot mid and adc aswell:

1)Giving away buffs: I agree on your take but would like to add some. There are 5 people, and anyone can potentially profit from buffs. If mid and jungle are both manaless, take a look at other lanes. Toplane mages like lissandra or lulu can profite alot, and even bruisers like jax will be incredible happy with a blue, and also bot lane can make great use of a bluebuff, especially on supports. This also becomes important later on, if you midlaner already hs grail and thus cdr and alot mana, it often is better to give the blue to someone else that might meed it, especially poke-carrys like Ez or Varus profit alot from it. As a sidenote, blue also gives energie regen, and contrair to public belive, every energie champ has god damn energie problems and can make good use from a blue. Also, don't forget about red. If you can take blue for your self, you might think about giving red to a laner instead. Especially for toplaners that are ahead, a red can lead to massive snowballing as the slow allows for no escape from them. Also, since the preseason, it often is better to give red to your tank rather than the adc in the late, as it gives %health regen and the slow on ranged is rather weak. It also greatly increases the threat of your tank with the truedamage, makeing it harder to ignore him.

2)Ganking: If you go for a gank, use the 'moveing to'(or what it's called) ping, so your laner not only knows that you are coming, but also from where. If your laner is low and has a huge creepwave infront of him, don't expect followup, he probably would die to the creeps if he tries to. Instead, try to zone the enemy laner(and keep an i on the map for eventual counterganks), so your laner can savely farm the big creepwave. Especially if your laner is behind, a gank doesn't need to be a kill to be succesfull, costing the other laner some health and mana often is enough to swing the lane in your favour, and uoning an enemy to allow your laner a bit freefarm can be enough for him to catch up again. Takeing your laners farm if he's behind is also a bad idea(unless he's dead and definitly can't get it ofc) Also, if one of your laners does well, don't think you don't need to gank that lane. If your laner is ahead, it often means an easy kill, allowing you to pick up some feed aswell, and it's less vulnerable to counterganks as you are likely to win 2v2. It's also often possible to towerdive, just ask your laner if he'S confident to do so and make sure you have deepwards to avoid suprises. As a laner, comunicate with your jungler, ping if the enemy jungler ganks so he can either come to help, or atleast knows where he is so he can go for dragon or another gank without fearing a countergank. If your jungler comes for an gank and you feel like it's a bad idea, use the retreat ping and if possible tell him it's a bad idea right now(like he comes when you are oom and rather low)

3)While i can only speak for my self, i'm very well aware that junglers have their own problems, but ganking is part of their job. I'm not asking for baybysiting in every game but it's a good idea to set right prioritys at the beginning of your game. If you have a very snowbally toplaner like riven or Ireia, try to set them ahead early on, they can easily snowball out of controll with a early lead while at the same time they become pretty useless if falling behind. If your toplaner dies once on such a champ, react fast, try to get him back into the game asap, if you wait to long there is little you can do and you face a 4v5(more or less) Midlaners usually can do better without help, as they have far shorter distance to theri tower, and they usually have ranged tools for lasthits, so even though midlane is rather convinient to gank, don't forget about the sidlanes, especially top snowballs way harder in both directions(unless you have a very utillity foused champ like malph).

4)other stuff If a laner, especially midlaner, is winning the lane, try to comunicate and roam together. If he can give backup, counterjungleing is much less risky, and you can easly deploy deep wards. 3 vs 1 dives both top and mid are rather easy if you know what you do(just make sure you have enough vision so it stays a 3vs1) If you have aoe-ults, try to get a lvl 6 4v2 gank bot, it usually translates into a easy baron. If you go counterjungling, ping so your team knows it and can reakt faster for backup. Especially for laners: deep wards are awsome! If you have a ward in the river brush, you often won't see the jungler till it's to late, and your jungler will certainly not have enough time to come for an countergank. If you ward at the jungleentrance in the river, you and your jungler have more time to react. Other great wardplaces are behind redbuff or the blue-brush(vision on blue and gromp if placed right) A very important thin for everyone: if you see the enemy jungler, ping! Don't ecpect the rest of your team to notice him aswell, cause they most likely don't. The positon of the enemy jungler very important, not only because of ganks, it could also allow to sneak a dragon or go for a all-in or gank without having to fear a countergank while also helping at counterjungling. If you ping and yout team already noticed, nothing happens atall, but if they diddn't you might just caused your team to turn a death of your mate into a succesfull countergank with 2 kills. This is probably one of the parts i screw most, both pingiing if i see one and noticing someone passing my ward in the firstplace.

Quite a wall of text, but i hope it sheds some more light on the lane-jungle relation.

Thanks for the very engaging post, most of the information ids very accurate and concise however a few things are just personal preference instead of hard fact. Putting pressure on a losing lane to help swing it is fine, but if you are there for too long it sets the enemy team up for an easy turret, dragon or roam gank in another lane, or a successful countergank top, so its more of a situational thing. If your other lanes are ahead I fully endorse it, however if your time would be better spent ganking a lane successfully, i believe it would be better to do so. In the laning phase, doling out the buffs to the other laners more depends on again) who's fed, who could get back into the game with it, and what side you are on. I would gladly donate my second red to my top laner if i am on that side, or my blue to my support if i am on that side and all of the conditions are met. For number three, that is more of a conditional rule so I didn't add it but it is still a valid point.

OblongOtter2 votes

Reminds me of something that happened one game. Velkoz was like, hey why haven't you given me blue? Then he misses all his abilities on the enemy ADC and then proceeds to get into an auto attack battle with them. Don't worry he was "poking."

But hey do you have any tips for someone rather new to the jungle? It's the only role I've never mained before.

Leti the Yeti1 votes

nonsense he was "zoning" gj velkoz

Lysdexic11 votes

{quoted}

Reminds me of something that happened one game. Velkoz was like, hey why haven't you given me blue? Then he misses all his abilities on the enemy ADC and then proceeds to get into an auto attack battle with them. Don't worry he was "poking."

But hey do you have any tips for someone rather new to the jungle? It's the only role I've never mained before.

Ahhhh as a tip i would say, learn your times. Remember when your blue and red buffs come up, and always try to be there with smite as they're coming up. Taking that one step further, if your champion is a good counterjungler, you can use that information to know when the enemy junglers buffs are coming up and kill them at those buffs. In the new jungle its a bit more difficult because there are quite a few new pathing ideas, but its the same general strategy.

AtheosisX1 votes

Smite is a waste on red and blue in many cases.

Sire Hippington1 votes

Depends on how much vision you have, rather loose out a potential simte-buff and therfore secure red/blue than having it stollen away by the enemy jungler.

AtheosisX1 votes

Notice I said in many cases. If you are actively being counterjungled or expect to be it might be wise to smite red and blue, but generally smite is more useful on other camps.

Lysdexic11 votes

{quoted}

Smite is a waste on red and blue in many cases.

In the new jungle, i agree. Early game if i start on red side my usual route is Krugs (smite)-Red- Wolves(smite so i have the spirit guard thing and know my blue isnt being stolen) then back and finish the clear. Gromp-blue-krugs-back-finish for the other side.

AtheosisX1 votes

Something that really needs to be understood in my opinion is that ultimately you really just need to leave your jungler alone and let them do their job. Ping for ganks when your opponent is low or you feel you need some help, but for the love all that is good don't berate, insult, or bully your jungler, at least not if you want to win. Literally nothing you say of a negative nature to your jungler is going to make them do their job better or help you win. So just shut up and deal with it if your jungler isn't performing up to your standards (which, if you aren't a jungler yourself, are probably ill-conceived). Also mid-laners don't just assume blue buff is yours. Some junglers are actually very mana-hungry and need it as well. Ask first before you come in and take it. Better yet wait for an invitation.

Sire Hippington1 votes

well, that counts for any postition at any time in any game. Insulting your mates and showing bad attitude will always harm rather than help in team-games/sports

Sammystorm1 votes

Is this a game series that will be insanely popular on its first debut and then make a trilogy out of the 2nd game and rehash the same first game with more and more convoluted plots for generations to come?

SoI Invictus1 votes

Do whatever you want xD

AetherKingdom1 votes

lmao how many fucking times is this gonna be reposted

Lysdexic11 votes

{quoted}

lmao how many fucking times is this gonna be reposted

This is only the second time this has been posted o.o

AetherKingdom1 votes

Every couple of days some jungle main posts a different version of this with the exact same points.

HyperZEROXL1 votes
  1. We aren't your personal slaves=VERY big issue for me Well, both top and bot are pinging for assistance, I go top: Help top. But bot curses at me why I didn't go bot and help them because they decided to tower dive when I was near top to begin with. -.-' My team ALWAYS expects me to be at 2 places in like seconds...Sorry, but I can't go that fast when I'm far away from top to bottom lane. -.-' When I get to bottom finally, I ping them that I'm going in, I go in and they run when we could've won the fight, then I die. Then they curse at ME that I went in, when they said, they were ready...You see what I'm gettin at? :/ I just CAN'T be 2 places in seconds unless I'm Hecarim Rammus of course.
Tin Tarantino1 votes

{quoted}

  1. We aren't your personal slaves=VERY big issue for me Well, both top and bot are pinging for assistance, I go top: Help top. But bot curses at me why I didn't go bot and help them because they decided to tower dive when I was near top to begin with. -.-' My team ALWAYS expects me to be at 2 places in like seconds...Sorry, but I can't go that fast when I'm far away from top to bottom lane. -.-' When I get to bottom finally, I ping them that I'm going in, I go in and they run when we could've won the fight, then I die. Then they curse at ME that I went in, when they said, they were ready...You see what I'm gettin at? :/ I just CAN'T be 2 places in seconds unless I'm Hecarim Rammus of course.

You forgot Shaco

Vesarixx1 votes

I don't play jungle very often but as a laner I have a few things I do relating to the jungler.

  1. Don't expect ganks, sometimes refuse them depending on the situation. If I'm winning my lane it's an opportunity for the jungler to snowball other lanes, I don't need the gank so I won't ask. If the lane is even I might ask for a gank if I know the enemy will hit a power spike that will swing the lane, but can have that power spike denied by being behind. If I'm behind, play defensive, hold tower, ask jungler to focus other lanes that might need it more, try to draw enemy jungler attention in order to waste their time and create opportunities/relieve pressure for my team.

  2. Don't rely on buffs. most of my builds have some form of mana regen and cooldown reduction built in, if it's a build or a matchup that requires blue or red buff to be successful, you're doing something wrong. That said, if I get the chance to deny the enemy a buff, I may ask my jungler for assistance taking it.

  3. Let the jungler Know if I'm about to back/roam. giving the jungler notice before going back allows them to get the jungle in order(take buffs, place vision) before holding a lane and getting some xp/farm from it that would have otherwise been wasted on the tower. It's not possible in all situations, but it can help give your jungler an edge.

  4. Zone enemies from objectives and control vision. When Dragon or Baron is being done(or first buff), the last thing you want is for it to get stolen, the ADC and tank should probably be in the pit for DPS and to swap aggro, but as a mid/support(sustained DPS AP may be an exception) you generally want to try to make sure the enemy jungler can't get near enough to try stealing. This should also include squashing/placing wards around the objective before and during. Rather than blaming the jungler for getting out smited, take some steps to make sure they aren't in a position to be out smited in the first place. Pay attention to when the jungler starts one of these as well, unless you are being pushed in to tower you should be there.

  5. Help them stay hidden. Communicate what paths are warded, and what ones are not, place a pink ward in a ganking path if you can. You can also bait enemies into getting to close to a brush your jungler is hiding in by letting them see you use your red trinket on the brush in question(even though you know it's clear already). Buy your own wards too, it's not the junglers job to ward for you, and the support isn't coming all the way top to do it.

  6. Don't take their camps. The jungle camps take quite a while to respawn now, taking your junglers farm can set them behind quite a bit, and with the change to how jungle gold works, it's a lot better for them to get the camps.

  7. Don't be an idiot. One game where I was playing jungle I had the allied mid and bot lane both refuse to leash, the mid laner then fed first blood, and was crying for a gank before I had gotten to my second buff, while they were at 20% health. Junglers can't work miracles, asking them to 1v1 the lane opponent you've just been feeding kills to is a quick way to end up vs a double buffed opponent.

  8. Try to pick a champion your jungler is going to want to gank for. It's a lot easier to gank for an Annie than a Nidalee, so if you want ganks, take that into consideration.

  9. Don't wave clear by yourself after a successful gank. If you get a kill out of a gank, let the jungler have a few minions, I even bring them down to last hit range sometimes, if you just got a kill you can spare a few minions, 3 or 4 isn't going to affect you that much. You can wave clear it if your jungler gets the kill or if you are about trying to push fast to rotate to an objective. Also as Syndra, don't grab the buff monster out of the spawn to kill it, you're denying the jungler XP doing that.

  10. be aware of your lane opponent, if they start getting aggressive on low health, the enemy jungler is probably nearby, let your team know so they can respond accordingly. if they roam, make sure your jungler is aware, as well as your laners.

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