Some counterplay to Thresh

Xela Syab·Sep 3, 2015·38 votes·3,875 views

with the nerf to janna and seeing how alot of supports have some measure of counterplay, why can't enemy players grab Thresh's lantern?

137 Comments

UltraSceptileSep 3, 201533 votes

The counterplay to Thresh is basically hoping the thresh is bad.

That's literally about it.

Unfortunately there are many of these circulating the elo system from bronze to platinum, not sure about diamond though.

Silents429Sep 3, 201517 votes

I don't think you or the OP actually know what counterplay is.

And I am genuinely curious what people think needs to be nerfed on Thresh that is supposedly going to make him have counterplay and be "balanced" to them.

Counterplay to his ult is going around it. The counterplay to his narrow short ranged flay is moving out of the way, or out of range. The counterplay to his less bullshit hook then another champion is to dodge it. Yes Dodging alone is not what anyone wants to hear, but lets tack on the fact he telegraphs it, as well as it moving slower with a smaller hitbox. The counterplay to his lantern is to stand over it so the enemy can't click it.

Otherwise thresh requires his entire combo to lock down. 1 person. While other supports have ults that can lock down multiple people.

The reason the above count as counterplay is because his abilities are a lot more telegraphed and require you to be the one that is bad as well as the thresh being good enough to chain his CC properly. Dodging a Thresh hook is no where near the same as an anti fun champion like Blitz. Because when Blitz grab you it's game over, when Thresh grabs you things are drawn out with moments of weakness and opportunity, as well as the fact he has to put himself in danger to do it.

Thresh is picked highly because he just works with every team better then other supports, he doesn't particularly do anything better then any other support when you look at his abilities and compare them to other supports. He is probably the healthiest jack of all trades champion in League, and if we want him "fixed" it's a matter of fixing the other supports who are constantly getting tuned and moved around due to having a presence in other lanes, or having an aspect that's to strong.

-Edited for clarity.

Jarrito232Sep 3, 201510 votes

AH! Facts! The LolBoard's greatest enemy!

Hullabaloo907Sep 3, 20154 votes

IT BURNS!

VDc0zCqe0wSep 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I don't think you or the OP actually know what counterplay is.

And I am genuinely curious what people think needs to be nerfed on Thresh that is supposedly going to make him have counterplay and be "balanced" to them.

there is no counterplay to a Flash-lantern gank

i once got ganked by flash+lantern+flash+wukong ult

literally a fucking wukong jungle ulted me from Thresh tower into my tower

""""counterplay"""", i guess i should have their whole jungle warded the whole time

Silents429Sep 3, 20155 votes

Uh, how about noticing that Thresh just tossed a random lantern in the fog of war? What about warding to see that fog of war? What about moving to the left when a Thresh foolishly wastes his flash trying to hook you?

Even these aside, theirs still a window of oppurtunity to get out from how long it takes for the lantern to get to the target, for the target to click the lantern, and for the lantern to return.

VDc0zCqe0wSep 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Uh, how about noticing that Thresh just tossed a random lantern in the fog of war? What about warding to see that fog of war? What about moving to the left when a Thresh foolishly wastes his flash trying to hook you?

Even these aside, theirs still a window of oppurtunity to get out from how long it takes for the lantern to get to the target, for the target to click the lantern, and for the lantern to return.

all you said is possible only if the Thresh got no clue on how to play and doesn't know lantern range/speed and if his teammate is just bad at reacting

"noticing that Thresh just tossed a random lantern in the fog of war", the second i notice that the jungler is already on me

Silents429Sep 3, 20157 votes

all you said is possible only if the Thresh got no clue on how to play and doesn't know lantern range/speed and if his teammate is just bad at reacting

If you are going to use stupid arguments like that I am going to do it back.

Why don't you simply get better reaction time? Why don't you learn how to play better? Gosh any player with the least bit of intelligence could figure out what was going on? So much easier with the lower ping everyone has now.

See how this doesn't help anything? This doesn't change anything, it still takes a few seconds for Thresh to throw a lantern and bring it back, even if his ally grabs it instantly, if you can't react in time, then you got outplayed. That's not the fault in Thresh, just yourself.

"noticing that Thresh just tossed a random lantern in the fog of war", the second i notice that the jungler is already on me

It was also wonderful you didn't bring up warding, go figure, someone who doesn't ward right? Surely if you warded you would see the Jungler coming in the first place, adding more time to react.

VDc0zCqe0wSep 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If you are going to use stupid arguments like that I am going to do it back.

Why don't you simply get better reaction time? Why don't you learn how to play better? Gosh any player with the least bit of intelligence could figure out what was going on? So much easier with the lower ping everyone has now.

First of all, i'm dia 4 next to dia 3 and you're not even ranked, i hate to use this argument but i don't think you're in the position to criticize me for my lack of skills/reaction time.

Second: you haven't got wards up all the time in their jungle, it would be a cool thing but you can't do that always i'm sorry, it could be anything, it could be your team lacking control over the river making it very difficult and risky to have wards in their jungle.

Third: it doesn't take "a few seconds": it takes less than 0.8 seconds and the jungler is already on you if he got flash, even more so if he's got point-and-click dash and CC like Wukong, even more so if you got no escape like Ashe and really the only way to escape is flashing and hope they don't flash too.

Fourth: this is an action-reaction situation: Thresh is doing an action and he knows when and how to make that play while you have to react, and reaction is always more risky and more difficult than action, so he's always in the better position in the first place, it's the same reason why attacking is easier than defending in basket, it's the same reason why who serves is in the best position in tennis, it's the same reason why who scores a penalty kick in football is in a better position than the goalkeeper, and such.

Silents429Sep 3, 20155 votes

First of all, i'm dia 4 next to dia 3 and you're not even ranked, i hate to use this argument but i don't think you're in the position to criticize me for my lack of skills/reaction time.

Then don't use your own incompetence as reasoning?

Second: you haven't got wards up all the time in their jungle, it would be a cool thing but you can't do that always i'm sorry, it could be anything, it could be your team lacking control over the river making it very difficult and risky to have wards in their jungle.

You only need the Tri bush and River warded to prevent any lantern ganks.

Third: it doesn't take "a few seconds": it takes less than 0.8 seconds and the jungler is already on you if he got flash, even more so if he's got point-and-click dash and CC like Wukong, even more so if you got no escape like Ashe and really the only way to escape is flashing and hope they don't flash too.

Taking account no wards and Thresh does this, let's ignore that majority of supports have CC and peel, as well as majority of marksmen being played being mobile.

But sure, let's nerf thresh for the rare moment you are Ashe, Have a support with no CC, against a Thresh and Wukong jungle.

By the way, Ashe is my go to ADC, and positioning is key for success with her, My E filling in the time gaps when I don't have a ward up, and my ult being ready for any moment I somehow get jumped, which is unlikely considering how well I control the lane it keep it pushed to my side.

Fourth: this is an action-reaction situation: Thresh is doing an action and he knows when and how to make that play while you have to react, and reaction is always more risky and more difficult than action, so he's always in the better position in the first place, it's the same reason why attacking is easier than defending in basket, it's the same reason why who serves is in the best position in tennis, it's the same reason why who scores a penalty kick in football is in a better position than the goalkeeper, and such.

I am still trying to fathom why this matters to the conversation.

Edit- Thresh throwing his Lantern max range takes an entire second, add the delay of the ally coming back, you have almost 2 seconds of reaction time, and that's assuming you are in a bad enough position where this would even work.

VDc0zCqe0wSep 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Then don't use your own incompetence as reasoning?

i'm gonna ignore the personal attacks and go on

{quoted}

You only need the Tri bush and River warded to prevent any lantern ganks.

not if you're blue side, and he can just pink ward the tri and he's got the advantage being a kill lane support

{quoted}

Taking account no wards and Thresh does this, let's ignore that majority of supports have CC and peel, as well as majority of marksmen being played being mobile.

most of the times the CC is not enough, and what if i don't like mobile adcs? (wich i don't)

{quoted}

By the way, Ashe is my go to ADC, and positioning is key for success with her, My E filling in the time gaps when I don't have a ward up, and my ult being ready for any moment I somehow get jumped, which is unlikely considering how well I control the lane it keep it pushed to my side.

if you let the lane push to your side you're already losing because you will lose CS under tower (most of the times) unless you managed to do a really absurd freezing and you got the advantage (wich is unlikely considering that to build that advantage you have to put yourself at risk, risk that Thresh punishes extremely easily thanks to lantern ganks).

Even if it had any kind of counterplay, just the risk of a lantern gank already produces a stupid amount of pressure that no other support has except maybe Blitzcrank with flash up.

Silents429Sep 3, 20154 votes

not if you're blue side, and he can just pink ward the tri and he's got the advantage being a kill lane support

Destroy Pink Ward
Position yourselves better where a tri bush gank is unreliable (Basically don't push to tower and you are golden)
Ward over dragon pit. Pink won't see it and you will still get vision if he comes through there or from his red.
Map awareness, Pay attention to where enemy jungler has been.

most of the times the CC is not enough, and what if i don't like mobile adcs? (wich i don't)

Not sure what Champions are supporting you, but commonly a support has 2 forms of CC, otherwise they have means to allow easier escape.

For immobile ADCs.

Ashe has a wide Ark Slow and a Stun Sivir has a spell shield and AOE speed boost Varus has a multi target root. Twitch has a slow and stealth Jinx works from a range and has a root and slow.

And this applies to all of them but positioning yourself where a situation like this could occur you have an easier time getting away, Aka. control your lane.

if you let the lane push to your side you're already losing because you will lose CS under tower (most of the times) unless you managed to do a really absurd freezing and you got the advantage (wich is unlikely considering that to build that advantage you have to put yourself at risk, risk that Thresh punishes extremely easily thanks to lantern ganks).

You don't let them push to where you are under tower, just to where they fight along the edge of the rocks, or where you walk a drastically shorter distance to get under tower.

Even if it had any kind of counterplay, just the risk of a lantern gank already produces a stupid amount of pressure that no other support has except maybe Blitzcrank with flash up.

It doesn't produce the fainted pressure to me because I follow the above steps.

I don't quite understand why you are trying to say that it lacks counterplay, and then using an absurdly specific set of a circumstances to do it, despite me pointing out numerous ways of prevention and reaction.

The lantern gank is being made out as if Thresh was hurling Jesus at you, when it feels more inefficient and a waste of resources then actually accomplishing anything.

Tldr: Your personal weakness does not mean he lacks counterplay.

Jarrito232Sep 4, 20151 votes

I wonder if he bought that account.

BeatzBoyFTWSep 5, 20151 votes

I guess he was too excited by bragging his Diamond elo over an account that he paid a lot of money for lol.

Hay5eedSep 3, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Puffball Reborn,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uYAEILu0,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2015-09-03T16:16:46.373+0000)

there is no counterplay to a Flash-lantern gank

i once got ganked by flash+lantern+flash+wukong ult

literally a fucking wukong jungle ulted me from Thresh tower into my tower

""""counterplay"""", i guess i should have their whole jungle warded the whole time

I know for a fact that that is bs. there is no way that Thresh can lantern a jungler from his tower, flash during the dash, and the jungler could flash into your tower without you having ANYTHING you could do about it, the distances just don't make sense. Maybe Wukong sprinted towards your tower a little or used his dash ability, but that is not the combo you described

Slamurai JackSep 4, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The counterplay to Thresh is basically hoping the thresh is bad.

That's literally about it.

This idea is just as untrue when people say it about Lee Sin or Riven. The only champion you could ever realistically say that about was Leblanc before her silence was removed, hence why they took it out.

Xela SyabSep 4, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The counterplay to Thresh is basically hoping the thresh is bad.

That's literally about it.

Unfortunately there are many of these circulating the elo system from bronze to platinum, not sure about diamond though.

It's kinda frustrating playing other supports when Thresh is the way he is. Soraka has to harass with q to keep healing her allies, Janna has to disengage any fight or she gets killed and her ult can push enemies toward her allies unintentionally, bards whole kit can goof up, Alistar can accidently push enemies to safety and get himself killed from the engage if his ult isn't ready Braum and Tahm have the same problem where their abilities are for peel and engage, sona/karma/lux/lulu/orianna/morg pretty much play the same with poke utility with good ulti.

This is so true about Thresh, it does feel rewarding to engage the enemy and set up a gank or to save an ally or just stick around and get free armor for lategame, but it feels cheap when the enemy janna/lulu has to peel and be in a dangerous situation you can just laugh and save anyone who dives in. Thresh has so much safety in his kit that if he engages with q, he can peel for himself with E and ultimate any other tanky support is doomed if an engage goes wrong or if there's no followup.

TyroneWatermelonSep 3, 20159 votes

Just to be clear,let me put the players excuses into topics.

No sustain (you know) (you know)(once upon a time every 2 minutes) once upon a time an ultimate.
high cooldown a early . not a lot of cc
without tons of damage That's the casual weakness of every support. If you want to complain about shop with no counterplay it's

LankPantsSep 3, 20156 votes

without tons of damage That's the casual weakness of every support.

Really? Zilean, The support who straddles the line between Mage and support lacks damage? Nami, A support with some of the highest base damages of any support (go look it up it's actually insane) lacks damage? Bar, The only support who can scale up his damage in a way other than spending gold on it lacks damage?

You picked some really bad examples for supports who have low damage. They all out damage Janna.

In fact Janna has the lowest average damage of any support in the game. She only averages around 5K a game. http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Support&sortBy=general.totalDamageDealtToChampions&order=descend

Also note that Zil, Bard and Nami are up at 10, 11 and 16. Not the highest damage supports but certainly not lacking.

TotalJerkSep 3, 20152 votes

People say Morgana has no sustain?

alfavhunterSep 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Just to be clear,let me put the players excuses into topics.

No sustain (you know) (you know)(once upon a time every 2 minutes) once upon a time an ultimate.

high cooldown a early . not a lot of cc

without tons of damage That's the casual weakness of every support. If you want to complain about shop with no counterplay it's

Janna does tons of damage?

Her actual sustain is also tied to her ult, which is a long CD and can be interrupted

Her shield prevents damage, but it doesn't heal

She is also very squishy, more so than thresh

Janna is by no means op, she is strong at one thing, disengage

Her engage is lackluster

Thresh on the other hand has strong engage and disengage

Q can be used to run in multiple ways, W is a good shield and can save allies from a pinch or get off great ganks

E is good for both as is R

The problem is thresh kit is strong for running and chasing

disregardableSep 3, 20158 votes

He already has a bunch of counterplay. His hook has a long windup and is easy to dodge, his flay is easy to miss, and he has no reliable escape.

MudintheWaterSep 3, 201534 votes

[{quoted}](name=Very Toxic Jinx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uYAEILu0,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-09-03T03:12:29.015+0000)

He already has a bunch of counterplay. His hook has a long windup and is easy to dodge, his flay is easy to miss, and he has no reliable escape.

That isn't counterplay that's hoping the enemy thresh is bad.

Valderis VandalaSep 3, 20156 votes

He also has the worst starting armor in the game in a lane that focuses on attack damage, he also has zero sustain. His cooldowns are also very high at low levels.

He is very easy to bully and poke out of lane or you can just out sustain him. i don't understand why people have such trouble against a champion with such glaring weaknesses.

MarthianSep 3, 20153 votes

Get armor runes (or even x/21/x), play defensively, and be constantly moving to a position to threaten a hook, and those suddenly aren't good weaknesses, especially for someone that can fall behind and still provide insane utility to his team (and if he didn't fall behind, ridiculous tankiness, and a bit too high damage.)

Not to mention mobility boots rush means you either turn around to hit him (giving him a free hook) or try to outrun a 400+ movespeed Thresh.

Valderis VandalaSep 3, 20151 votes

Move all you want but Sivir Q and Soraka Q will get you no matter what while we dodge your slow ass hooks, hide behind minions, get mana off it and return it in the form of another Q, and heal what little damage you might deal.

Don't pretend that he doesn't have weaknesses, and anything you try to do to cover them will hurt you in some other way, you always have to give up something else for it.

MarthianSep 3, 20152 votes

I never said he didn't, I just said he doesn't have good weaknesses. If Sivir is poking Thresh and not the adc, then he's still doing his job, just a different one (and you won't be able to spellshield hooks forever, much less dodge all of them.)

Soraka and sivir are definitely good choices to counter thresh... Early game. Come later on, it doesn't matter as much, he still provides a ridiculous amount of utility.

Valderis VandalaSep 3, 20151 votes

IF, and that can be a big if because both Q's can hit multiple people and you can only shield 1 and not often enough.

Meh, not every hook needs to be a death sentence, if you poke them enough they won't have enough health for a good engage and can't kill you. Plus we can just keep healing, or if he grabs the support keep dealing damage.

And come mid-late game Thresh will still be a squishy little bitch that gets popped because of his miserable laning phase.

But I am glad that he has good utility no matter what, it's what supports are supposed to do, at least he won't be completely useless. But I'd say not having sustain is a pretty good weakness.

MarthianSep 3, 20152 votes

Except almost any other support is next to useless if they fall behind.

CppLSep 3, 20159 votes

[{quoted}](name=Valderis Vandala,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uYAEILu0,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-03T03:52:26.911+0000)

He also has the worst starting armor in the game in a lane that focuses on attack damage, he also has zero sustain. His cooldowns are also very high at low levels.

He is very easy to bully and poke out of lane or you can just out sustain him. i don't understand why people have such trouble against a champion with such glaring weaknesses.

Thats why you go armor runes ,plus you have your passive.

Valderis VandalaSep 3, 20151 votes

Passive is useless if you get poked out of your lane.

Taking armor runes means weaknesses elsewhere, runes are give and take, take those runes and you'll give up other runes.

CppLSep 3, 201510 votes

[{quoted}](name=Valderis Vandala,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uYAEILu0,comment-id=00000000000000010000,timestamp=2015-09-03T05:47:49.385+0000)

Passive is useless if you get poked out of your lane.

Taking armor runes means weaknesses elsewhere, runes are give and take, take those runes and you'll give up other runes.

If you are pussy and you let them poke you then you deserved.You are ranged poke back jesus...also 1 single hook and it"s a flash or a kill.There is a reason tresh is top tier support since her release.Good thresh player can carrys games like no other support can.So you have low armor ,but you refuse to take armor runes?? you have to sacrifice something you cant have everything.

Valderis VandalaSep 3, 20152 votes

LOL, I don't play Thresh, I'm the one who is not afraid of HIM and poke HIM into oblivion. I'm not saying he is bad, I'm just saying he has his weaknesses and people can take advantage of them. Which is why I question why people seem to have such problems with him.

And yes, that's what I just said, runes (and also masteries) are give and take, there is nothing wrong with that.

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about me, please don't, you got everything wrong so far.

CppLSep 3, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Valderis Vandala,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uYAEILu0,comment-id=0000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-03T06:14:47.123+0000)

LOL, I don't play Thresh, I'm the one who is not afraid of HIM and poke HIM into oblivion. I'm not saying he is bad, I'm just saying he has his weaknesses and people can take advantage of them. Which is why I question why people seem to have such problems with him.

And yes, that's what I just said, runes (and also masteries) are give and take, there is nothing wrong with that.

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about me, please don't, you got everything wrong so far.

That means you played against really bad tresh players.A good tresh player is scary as fuck, trust me.Look at lcs she"s pick like 90% of the time.Why? Cause she"s godlike support if you can play her right.She"s not nerfed just cause of lcs flashy plays.Janna can"t really make any flashy plays ,thats why they keep nerfing her again and again.

NarasimhaSep 3, 20152 votes

A good tresh player is scary as fuck,

ANY good player is scary as hell. Have you seen a good Urgot? Or do you want to nerf him too?

CppLSep 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

ANY good player is scary as hell. Have you seen a good Urgot? Or do you want to nerf him too?

Yes i did.And he"s not scary at all.Thats why he doenst need a nerf.

NarasimhaSep 3, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Yes i did.And he"s not scary at all.Thats why he doenst need a nerf.

Then you've never seen an Urgod. Simple as that.

DeaerasSep 3, 20154 votes

{quoted}

If you are pussy and you let them poke you then you deserved.You are ranged poke back jesus...also 1 single hook and it"s a flash or a kill.There is a reason tresh is top tier support since her release.Good thresh player can carrys games like no other support can.So you have low armor ,but you refuse to take armor runes?? you have to sacrifice something you cant have everything.

Blitz pulls mean instant death or flash, same with Naut pulls, or Leo engages. Thresh is a very situational champ, you dodge one hook and now he can't do shit for 9 seconds, other than peel, his cooldowns are really high, he has a somewhat weak laning phase, no sustain, no heals, his W shield is very mediocre, he doesn't get tanky until his 3rd or 4th item, and even then he's still pretty squish.

CppLSep 4, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Blitz pulls mean instant death or flash, same with Naut pulls, or Leo engages. Thresh is a very situational champ, you dodge one hook and now he can't do shit for 9 seconds, other than peel, his cooldowns are really high, he has a somewhat weak laning phase, no sustain, no heals, his W shield is very mediocre, he doesn't get tanky until his 3rd or 4th item, and even then he's still pretty squish.

Aoe 90% slow, aoe knock back ,a latern with 1000 range who can save your teamates for their mistakes.Thats nothing?

Hay5eedSep 5, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Aoe 90% slow, aoe knock back ,a latern with 1000 range who can save your teamates for their mistakes.Thats nothing?

his slow is on his E, and explain to me how the hell Thresh is going to land an E on you without hooking you first?

DeaerasSep 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Aoe 90% slow, aoe knock back ,a latern with 1000 range who can save your teamates for their mistakes.Thats nothing?

Naut has 4 CC spells, Leo has 2 stuns, a gap closer, a passive that gives a mega damage boots in lane, and bonus Armor and MR from her W, Blitz can burst a squishy while building support items, whereas Thresh has an easily dodged hook, yes the lanterneis bullshit, Thresh's ult is an AOE slow that is cast around him over 0.5 seconds of casting, in contrast, Veigar has a ranged AOE stun for 2.5 seconds I think that can be procced multiple times. Trundle has a ranged pillar that blocks movement and slows by 50% in an AOE that can be procced for the entire 6 second duration, and Blitz hook is faster and actually brings the person to you when they're hooked. Thresh is a very situational champ, just because he is strong, doesn't mean hes overpowered.

TotalJerkSep 3, 20153 votes

Funfact: Near the start of the season every single champion in the game basically received an armor buff except Thresh.

CppLSep 3, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Funfact: Near the start of the season every single champion in the game basically received an armor buff except Thresh.

Like i said ,it cause of her passive.

TotalJerkSep 3, 20153 votes

You're missing the point. This was essentially a level 1 Thresh nerf because every other champion in the game got tankier except him.

CrettSep 3, 20155 votes

Thresh is male

SalidfingersSep 3, 20152 votes

that's like youre assuming all thresh players are in LCS

TotalJerkSep 3, 20152 votes

If the counterplay to having dodgeable skillshots and a lack of an escape is "hoping they're bad", Then I suppose Xerath has none as well.

Hay5eedSep 3, 20152 votes

{quoted}

That isn't counterplay that's hoping the enemy thresh is bad.

Yes it IS counterplay. Long windup lets you know a century in advance that Thresh is trying to hook you so you can try to escape out of it or dive behind a minion. Flay is also awkward to land, that is both counterplay and maybe bad Thresh-ing but also take into account that if you want to REALLY Thresh you have to flay BACKWARDS, which is difficult to land. No escape means that if he gets out of position or you bait him out of position (by either catching him colleting souls, or flashing backwards when he dashes to you) he can't get out. Buy a couple of pink wards and then pop them on top of lantern whenever he throws it and BOOM, every time their ADC tries to grab lantern they attack pink ward instead....gg

Water BreathingSep 3, 201513 votes

Thresh's windup literally means nothing because he doesn't assume the direction he is throwing it. In addition, Thresh is the only champion that can do this.