This item is god awful now, only what, 3 champions would buy it and they are all supports? It was THE mage item, now I have to go back to base just to regen mana while a yasuo or zed pushes for free all fucking day.
Verxint4 votes
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There's more than one early option for mana regen
There's also the mastery that grants % of missing mana as regen, take that and buy flat mana to make it stronger
Did you actually spend any time thinking of alternatives or did you just see a change and complain?
specter4241 votesAll of those are inferior
Verxint4 votesThis is actually incorrect.
For example, a level 5 Viktor has 9.8 mp5.
With two Drings, he has 19.6 mp5 plus up to an effective 4 mp5 from the Dring passive
With the old Chalice, Viktor has 14.7 mp5 and 529 mana for mana font. Mana font restored 2% of missing mana per 5 seconds
19.6 - 14.7 = 4.9 mp5
In order to get 4.9 mp5 from his Chalice, Viktor needs to be missing 245 mana - the chalice breaks even when he's at half mana, and this isn't considering the Dring mana refund. In order to get the effective 8.9 mp5 needed to match a Dring with perfect CS, Viktor has to be missing 445 mana - almost his entire pool.
Chalice was really just a crutch for people who couldn't manage their mana and constantly ran dry - it wasn't worth it unless you were always out of mana, to the point where you couldn't cast a full rotation. It's only other use was on someone like Anivia with a draining spell and a tendency to build tons of mana.
Frankly, if 2 Drings or a Lost Chapter isn't enough for you, you need to learn how to manage your resources better.
Furthermore, the meditation mastery is identical to Chalice of Harmony. If you are really struggling to keep your mana up, run this mastery.
If Dring, Lost Chapter, and meditation still isn't enough regen, you're just bad at managing mana.
BakedLotion1 votes[{quoted}](name=gank me pls,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uVWEI2TA,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2016-06-29T20:27:41.223+0000)
This is actually incorrect.
For example, a level 5 Viktor has 9.8 mp5.
With two Drings, he has 19.6 mp5 plus up to an effective 4 mp5 from the Dring passive
With the old Chalice, Viktor has 14.7 mp5 and 529 mana for mana font. Mana font restored 2% of missing mana per 5 seconds
19.6 - 14.7 = 4.9 mp5
In order to get 4.9 mp5 from his Chalice, Viktor needs to be missing 245 mana - the chalice breaks even when he's at half mana, and this isn't considering the Dring mana refund. In order to get the effective 8.9 mp5 needed to match a Dring with perfect CS, Viktor has to be missing 445 mana - almost his entire pool.
Chalice was really just a crutch for people who couldn't manage their mana and constantly ran dry - it wasn't worth it unless you were always out of mana, to the point where you couldn't cast a full rotation. It's only other use was on someone like Anivia with a draining spell and a tendency to build tons of mana.
Frankly, if 2 Drings or a Lost Chapter isn't enough for you, you need to learn how to manage your resources better.
Furthermore, the meditation mastery is identical to Chalice of Harmony. If you are really struggling to keep your mana up, run this mastery.
If Dring, Lost Chapter, and meditation still isn't enough regen, you're just bad at managing mana.
You're forgetting that everyone starts doran's as a starting item. Stop skewing things to your favor. Old Chalice also builds into a Mana/cdr item. And gives MR. And restores mana on kill/assist. "but muh morello" it doesn't give mp5 or magic resist.
Oh an catalyst needs you to get hit to get mana back. Which you don't want to be doing on purpose just for mana lol.
Verxint2 votesDorans also gives you 160 HP and 30 AP. I'm also comparing the items for their gold values; Chalice is 900 gold, Double Dorans is 800 gold. Chalice + Dorans is more expensive than Dorans + Dorans, so obviously it's going to be better. However, for gold efficiency, Double Dorans is vastly superior to anything Chalice ever was.
Lost Chapter, a component of Morello, gives 20% of max mana when you level up and has max mana meaning it synergizes with itself. On top of that, whenever you level up you restore a tiny bit of HP and mana based on your max. More max mana = more sustain this way. It also means more max mana for the Meditation mastery that you people seem to keep forgetting about
Oh and catalyst needs you to get hit to get mana back. Which you don't want to be doing on purpose just for mana lol.
You know what often causes you to cast spells? Trading with the enemy. You know what that involves? Them damaging you back. You know what catalyst does?
Have you ever actually purchased Catalyst and seen how it feels? The HP you get for trading back negates the damage you took trying to restore the mana it cost to cast the spells, ultimately meaning you spend less mana and take less damage when you trade. It's not an item designed to save your from your ineptitude like Chalice was, it's designed to reward you for playing well. Over a long period of time those extra numbers add up to a solid advantage.
BakedLotion1 votes[{quoted}](name=gank me pls,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uVWEI2TA,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-29T20:46:44.265+0000)
Dorans also gives you 160 HP and 30 AP. I'm also comparing the items for their gold values; Chalice is 900 gold, Double Dorans is 800 gold. Chalice + Dorans is more expensive than Dorans + Dorans, so obviously it's going to be better. However, for gold efficiency, Double Dorans is vastly superior to anything Chalice ever was.
Lost Chapter, a component of Morello, gives 20% of max mana when you level up and has max mana meaning it synergizes with itself. On top of that, whenever you level up you restore a tiny bit of HP and mana based on your max. More max mana = more sustain this way. It also means more max mana for the Meditation mastery that you people seem to keep forgetting about
You know what often causes you to cast spells? Trading with the enemy. You know what that involves? Them damaging you back. You know what catalyst does?
Have you ever actually purchased Catalyst and seen how it feels? The HP you get for trading back negates the damage you took trying to restore the mana it cost to cast the spells, ultimately meaning you spend less mana and take less damage when you trade. It's not an item designed to save your from your ineptitude like Chalice was, it's designed to reward you for playing well. Over a long period of time those extra numbers add up to a solid advantage.
I mean considering i main anivia and ryze, Yes i do understand how catalyst works. But good trades are the trades you don't get hit back for much, or trades u dont WANT to get hit back. Even for mana. It doesn't reward good plays, it rewards bad ones. If I'm Anivia and I'm E-Ring the enemy, I wont get hit back because it's a large range.
even if dorans is more gold efficient, the op isn't asking for alternatives. He's asking for a solution for the constant shoving of yasuo and zed. Which chalice was an EXTREMELY good choice to buy against. Even if it gave mr against AD champs.
Verxint1 votesI gave him a solution - these other items and the Meditation mastery. I won't run through the math again but if you run the mastery and get the other regen options, you have pretty similar amounts of regen to the old chalice for the same or less gold invested.
Zed will never have the energy to fight back if he's using his spells to shove 100% of the time. He will also never have his shadow available to escape ganks or chase targets if he uses it on CD to shove. If he uses QWE on a wave, he can't do anything for 6 seconds. If he tries to fight anytime before his energy fills back up, he can't do a full spell rotation.
Yasuo has to expose himself to ganks and harass in order to shove, and if he shoves at the wrong rate, he ends up without enemy minions to dash around. If Yasuo holds his tornado for zoning, then he isn't shoving as hard. If he uses it instantly to shove, you can punish him for it by taking out his shield. When his shield is down he has about 15 seconds in lane where he has to respect his opponent. If he is forced to use windwall, that's almost 30 seconds. Bascailly every midlaner can get two rotations off in that time.
Have you considered that Zed and Yasuo have to put themselves in much more danger when they shove lane than say, VelKoz, Anivia, or Viktor? Those champions can clear waves from outside their tower with a couple spells while holding onto their self-peel. Viktor can clear with E and Q, the latter of which has a low CD anyway, and save his W for defense. VelKoz can endlessly melt waves with W and Q. Again, one of those has a really low CD, and his knockup is still available while he shoves.
All of these champions have low-cd abilities they can use to clear from mid to long range without using their primary self-defense spell. Zed and Yasuo don't have that luxury. Zed has to use his escape to clear waves, and then wait as long as 2 or 3 more spell rotations to recover his energy. Yasuo has to extend into the middle of the lane and kill the very things that would save his life.
If you actually bother to learn about these champions and play against them instead of the defeatist attitude of "I can't stop Zed so I won't try, so then he shoves me for free and kills me because I don't fight back", you realize that Zed and Yasuo are not that hard to deal with.
Scary Door1 votes[{quoted}](name=gank me pls,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uVWEI2TA,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2016-06-29T20:27:41.223+0000)
This is actually incorrect.
For example, a level 5 Viktor has 9.8 mp5.
With two Drings, he has 19.6 mp5 plus up to an effective 4 mp5 from the Dring passive
With the old Chalice, Viktor has 14.7 mp5 and 529 mana for mana font. Mana font restored 2% of missing mana per 5 seconds
19.6 - 14.7 = 4.9 mp5
In order to get 4.9 mp5 from his Chalice, Viktor needs to be missing 245 mana - the chalice breaks even when he's at half mana, and this isn't considering the Dring mana refund. In order to get the effective 8.9 mp5 needed to match a Dring with perfect CS, Viktor has to be missing 445 mana - almost his entire pool.
Chalice was really just a crutch for people who couldn't manage their mana and constantly ran dry - it wasn't worth it unless you were always out of mana, to the point where you couldn't cast a full rotation. It's only other use was on someone like Anivia with a draining spell and a tendency to build tons of mana.
Frankly, if 2 Drings or a Lost Chapter isn't enough for you, you need to learn how to manage your resources better.
Furthermore, the meditation mastery is identical to Chalice of Harmony. If you are really struggling to keep your mana up, run this mastery.
If Dring, Lost Chapter, and meditation still isn't enough regen, you're just bad at managing mana.
Seems reasonable that mages have to manage their mana while Yasuo, Zed, Kat, etc don't need to worry about such trivialities. Picking a mana champ in mid is simply gimping yourself.
Verxint2 voteshttp://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.overallPosition&order=ascend&roleSort=Middle
That's why I have to go down 23 ranks in midlane performance to find a manaless champion, because picking a mana champion in mid like
is gimping yourself and nobody is playing these champions
http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.playPercent&order=descend&roleSort=Middle Hell, the 3 most popular mid laners are mana users. After Yas, you have 4 more mana users before you get to Zed
Oh and if you think Zed doesn't care about his resource you've never played Zed nor have you successfully countered him.
Verxint1 votesI felt like looking at the rankings even more
If you sort by damage dealt, you have to go down to rank 17 to find a manaless champion, and its Kennen Zed is #34 on damage dealt and Yasuo is #45, 4 from the bottom
If you sort by damage taken, you have Vladimir at #3 and Akali at #5. Yasuo is #15 and Zed is #22.
If you sort by minions killed, Yasuo is #4, Vladimir is #10 and Zed is #24
If you sort by gold earned, Yasuo is #8 and Zed is #16.
If you sort by kills, Akali and Kat are #1 and #2, Zed is #6, and Yasuo is #21.
Picking a mana champ in mid is simply gimping yourself.
This statement is factually incorrect. There is no evidence in any of these statistics that mana using champions are suffering to perform as well as manaless champions. The only category manaless champions seem to shine in is number of kills, but ironically enough they struggle to actually output large amounts of damage in a game.
If anything, this evidence shows that if you pick a manaless champion and aren't superbly good with them, you're gimping yourself.
If you want kills, pick Fizz or Talon instead of Zed If you want high damage numbers, pick Karthus or Velkoz, not Yasuo If you want a lot of farm, pick Karthus, Ziggs, or Veigar, not Zed or Yasuo If you want to take damage for your team, pick Swain.
http://champion.gg/champion/Zed/Middle
Take a look at the champion matrix, the funny pentagon graphic. Notice how Zed earns more gold and gets more kills than the average midlaner, only to win less and have less damage output.
http://champion.gg/champion/Yasuo
Look at the one for Yasuo. He kills more minions on average just to do less damage and win less.
http://champion.gg/champion/Katarina
This is Katarina's. All she stands out in is kills. All the gold she gets goes towards killstealing, not damage output.
http://champion.gg/champion/Velkoz
Now look at Vel'Koz. He kills the same minions as an average midlaner, but has tons more kills, assists, damage, and a much higher winrate.
Picking a mana champ in mid is simply gimping yourself.
This is simply wrong.
Keepe2 votesWell, one place I can point you out as wrong is that Meditation and Chalice were identical. Chalice effected Mana Regen (MP5% Up per missing), whereas when I last checked Meditation restores 1% of mana every five seconds. Odd thing to pick on, but I am a petty individual.
Personally, I liked Chalice because it was a good item if you were laning against a mage, offers longer times in lane and a little bit of MR. But what I liked most was that it was easy to simply throw on, say, a Morellonomicon and say "Boom bang done. Max CDR." While I would PREFER having my Chalice back, I know I am unlikely to get it, so I move on.
GRANTED, if Riot decides to remove it because it's not used enough any more, I WILL flip. "Gee, I wonder WHY."
That being said, I enjoyed your post. It was lovely and informative.
Verxint2 votesMy point is that the effect is identical, even if the number isn't. Meditation is 1.5% and Chalie was 2%, but it spent some time at 1.5%. Either way, Meditation is 3/4 of a Chalice and doesn't take an item slot. The crutch is still available if you genuinely need it.
Abyssal now gives CDR, so if you want an item to fight the enemy mage that's your ticket. Honestly, Athene's giving good AP, magic resistance, high CDR, and effectively infinite mana was a really hard item to balance. It was either really niche or a must buy.
I wouldn't worry about them removing it, they want it to be a support item, so I imagine they'll buff the things it builds into (Athene's and Crucible) before they just remove the item.
Athenes Lulu1 votesDon't forget this 
Salron3 votesIt's not supposed to be a mage item anymore It is strictly meant for supports
SoundChaosDebug2 votesThe guy it's named after cheated his way into League anyway, they should fix it and rename it.
Abyssphere1 votesIt's a cool name though.
Illâoi Evê Siôn1 votesA lot of Orianna players like to buy it even in mid lane.
Irelia Bot1 votesThat item was a idiot proof guild to ignoring mana with no real down sides due to AP, MR and 20% CDR.
I am glad it is not a mage item anymore.
I hated the concept of it from the start due to a lack of trade offs.
GaleWinUnleashed1 votesIt's supposed to be a support item now. Stop trying to buy it as a mage.
