What makes Lee Sin fun to play?

IcyPepper·Jan 20, 2016·6 votes·2,324 views

Whoa, hold your horses there. This is NOT a complaint thread about Lee Sin, but rather an indirect way to tackle some of the problems people have by taking a different approach.

What makes Lee fun to play? What makes certain champions who are not Lee not fun to play? Is it just the mobility, or is there something else that other champions lack (but shouldn't)? What makes fun champions "fun?"

And should Lee be the Renekton bar for the fun a champion should provide in gameplay? Or is Lee too fun? Or not fun enough?

Please take this seriously, I realize that this could be taken as satire/sarcasm so easily so I'm just going to say that it's not. Although jokes are welcome.

42 Comments

PiVoRxJan 20, 20168 votes

Cause Lee Sin shits on people, shitting on people is fun.

qetzelJan 20, 20161 votes

Better would be that Lee Sin feels as though he shits on people even when he doesn't.

Even if you can't play him for toffee and lose 2 games of every 3 (exaggeration) you still feel strong.

Commit SudokuJan 20, 20163 votes

You can get so creative in ways to kill people. You can pretty much combo your skills in the fanciest way possible. Like W->R+Flash (Insec Flashing)->Q+Q looks sick.

IcyPepperJan 20, 20161 votes

Would you say sick combos exist without mobility, or is the mobility key here?

Commit SudokuJan 20, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Would you say sick combos exist without mobility, or is the mobility key here?

mobility is pretty key if you are going to ping pong the enemy adc through their team.

IcyPepperJan 20, 20161 votes

I dunno, Alistar can at least help with that.

Although it's more soccer than ping pong.

DrCyanideJan 20, 20163 votes

I think "sick combos" are ones that take some extra measure of effort to pull off, or are at least perceived to.

For example, LeBlanc's E-Q-R-W combo isn't winning style points, despite having mobile elements. A Pink Ward style Jack-in-the-box trap with Shaco, where a foe gets feared from box to box, feels closer, yet I think is categorized better as an "outplay."

Perhaps Azir's old "Shurima Shuffle," where he would dash through an enemy to then Ult them back to where he has been, is the next closest "sick combo" a single champion can have. Both have mobile elements where the player and their target are moving, both rely on their ultimate, and both do lots of damage. Both are also viewed as high skill cap champions.

LankPantsJan 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Would you say sick combos exist without mobility, or is the mobility key here?

There are champs who are like this without mobility. Mages in general are combo driven and generally don't have very much mobility. If you name a mage there's a good chance that they're more reliant on combos than Lee Sin is. People just don't always think about this though because the combos aren't as flashy as Lee's.

Personally I find champs like Syndra and Orianna to have much more interesting and enjoyable combos.

SkiasJan 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

There are champs who are like this without mobility. Mages in general are combo driven and generally don't have very much mobility. If you name a mage there's a good chance that they're more reliant on combos than Lee Sin is. People just don't always think about this though because the combos aren't as flashy as Lee's.

Personally I find champs like Syndra and Orianna to have much more interesting and enjoyable combos.

Combos are lee are subjective, mainly because after he lands his Q, you cant do anything afterwards to affect anything. Animations are so fast you cant react.

SkiasJan 20, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Commit Sudoku,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uLEmP7M5,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-01-20T05:12:13.496+0000)

You can get so creative in ways to kill people. You can pretty much combo your skills in the fanciest way possible. Like W->R+Flash (Insec Flashing)->Q+Q looks sick.

Removing your opponents agency to do anything against you makes champions "fun". Lee sin is this. Its kind of like boxing with someone that has their hands tied, super fun... for you.

LankPantsJan 20, 20163 votes

I don't find Lee remotely fun, in fact I think he's one of the least fun champs in the game.

Personally the few times I did play Lee I didn't have a feeling of accomplishment when I did anything, it felt like I was just out-kitting the enemy. After getting a kill I could almost always go back and name two other ways I could have accomplished the same thing.

I think a lot of people are attracted to this though. When you have multiple good options at all times it makes them much easier to see and means that you can get away with using less strategy and substituting stronger mechanics. Personally I hate this though, since I've always enjoyed the strategy of the game more than mechanics.

Lee also doesn't get punished for misplays as much as other champs. A lot of players find this fun to play as although it's impact on overall gameplay is very negative. It's important that when you do stupid shit like overextending or invading with no vision you're vulnerable to getting punished for it. Lee undermines this by being so mobile and slippery that attempting to punish him is normally a waste of time. IMO this greatly hurts the overall strategy of the game since it allows Lee to make far more mistakes than the average champion without being punished for them.

This is why I don't find Lee Sin fun. He takes the strategical game that I love to play and mutilates it beyond repair.

SkiasJan 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I don't find Lee remotely fun, in fact I think he's one of the least fun champs in the game.

Personally the few times I did play Lee I didn't have a feeling of accomplishment when I did anything, it felt like I was just out-kitting the enemy. After getting a kill I could almost always go back and name two other ways I could have accomplished the same thing.

I think a lot of people are attracted to this though. When you have multiple good options at all times it makes them much easier to see and means that you can get away with using less strategy and substituting stronger mechanics. Personally I hate this though, since I've always enjoyed the strategy of the game more than mechanics.

Lee also doesn't get punished for misplays as much as other champs. A lot of players find this fun to play as although it's impact on overall gameplay is very negative. It's important that when you do stupid shit like overextending or invading with no vision you're vulnerable to getting punished for it. Lee undermines this by being so mobile and slippery that attempting to punish him is normally a waste of time. IMO this greatly hurts the overall strategy of the game since it allows Lee to make far more mistakes than the average champion without being punished for them.

This is why I don't find Lee Sin fun. He takes the strategical game that I love to play and mutilates it beyond repair.

They crammed every mechanic they could think of into his kit. In my opinion, hes a lot like Irelia. Popular, polarizing and doesnt really have a kit identity, despite popularity.

Crushing early game with his wall of stats or making mistakes but not paying for it isnt an identity. No one can tell you what hes specifically for in your comp. Hes just picked because hes everything.

Ulquiorra995Jan 20, 20163 votes

Fun is subjective. This is a game, which is played for fun - so every champion is fun to play. Lee is "fun" because of his overloaded kit combined with insane numbers - which in turn makes him being simultaneously very unfun to face.

Playmaking champions can be very fun without feeling overbearing. Shaco, for example has some of the best if not THE best outplay potentials in the game, yet he is picked 4x less than Lee. Orianna is highly versatile and skill-reliant too yet you don't see her in every third game. And that is because those champions don't inherently get an unfair advantage over other people.

WalkingInACircleJan 20, 20162 votes

Muh 10,000 damage ult.

IcyPepperJan 20, 20161 votes

Can we at least try? ;~;

WalkingInACircleJan 20, 20162 votes

Muh over 9000 damage ult.

LankPantsJan 20, 20161 votes

He's not exactly wrong, a lot of people do enjoy the obscene damage on Lee's ult. That doesn't mean that it's at all a fair thing to have in the game.

I GANK LANESJan 20, 20162 votes

he actually takes skill to play, he's extremely versatile. you get rewarded for being skilled with him. build path also flexible

IcyPepperJan 20, 20161 votes

Versatility seems to be a theme here, and build path has been noted at least once or twice.

Now, why does he take skill to play compared to other champions? What are the skill requirements, and what happens if a player falls short?

What rewards do you get for being skillful for him compared to other champions?

DunkinNoobsJan 20, 20162 votes

His kit provides lots of high points of satisfaction: Landing a killing blow with your second Q, sniping a fleeing low health enemy with a max range Q, performing a perfect ward jump for an insec maneuver and getting out alive, landing a kick that propels the target into multiple enemies, shielding a low health ally to barely save their life, managing to escape multiple enemies through clever use of Q and W, etc. Point is, doing well with Lee Sin really makes you feel like a badass and really makes you feel skilled at the game. You'll notice most of the really popular champions share this; Vayne, Ezreal, Thresh, Riven, Yasuo, and Zed all give similar feelings of skill just by playing them at an adequate level. But Lee Sin is the best at it, and that's why he's arguably the best champion Riot has ever designed. Even when Lee is mediocre, his playrate remains very high. He's proven to remain compelling to play even when he's weak and the idea that Lee should be nerfed simply for the sake of diversity is appalling. Not to mention it would be a disservice to the tens of millions of people that really enjoy playing Lee Sin and likely wouldn't satisfy the Lee haters anyway.

IcyPepperJan 20, 20161 votes

Would a better method be holding every champion to that standard, and making them all satisfying to play as Lee rather than try to keep people from picking Lee?

I wasn't really trying to talk about balance here, but I guess it'd be fair to say that even if Lee got gutted, he'd still be picked often. So if diversity is the goal, nerfing Lee probably isn't going to get us anywhere. Hence, this thread.

DunkinNoobsJan 20, 20161 votes

If it were that easy, then Riot would do it for every champion. But League has a very long list of champions that the community as a whole doesn't give a fuck about or play unless they're super OP. Ashe Hecarim Karthus Kayle Kennen Malphite Rammus Sejuani Sion Sivir Skarner Talon Trundle Veigar Volibear Warwick Ziggs Zyra etc. Riot's had that problem since the beginning: How to make a champion compelling without overloading them with raw power? Thresh LeeSin Riven Lucian Vayne Ezreal Zed Yasuo are the most successful at this. Kayle Skarner Jayce Swain Maokai are their worst examples of champions that only see significant play when they're blatantly overpowered and then drop down to bottom of the barrel pick rates the moment they get nerfed, even if they're still above average.

The Bearded BardJan 20, 20162 votes

I honestly don't think he's that fun. I dunno if that helps your quest to find answers as to why Lee is a popular champion, but if it helps, these are the champions I do enjoy playing:

Shaco Both top and jungle. He's slippery, flexible, has a cool theme, and is difficult to play, but when played perfectly is difficult to beat. An average Shaco won't cut it against most junglers, but a perfect one will control both jungles.

Ahri Pretty fun to watch melee champions' futile chase while their health steadily falls, then Ahri turns on them. Also fun to catch out stray carries, or weave through teamfights to get to the squishies.

Hecarim A badass undead centaur that speedily rushes through the jungle to dive into the enemy team? Yes please.

Gangplank Torturous pirate king that blows things up and shoots cannons. Deceptively hard to kill with his movement speed buffs, slows, and cc removing heal.

Irelia Fast paced underdog that turns a losing fight into a winning one.

JarvanIV Badass prince that flags 'n' drags his way into their team, separating all from the unlucky soul that's about to hear the true champions' home town. DEMACIA

Leblanc Deceptive assassin needs to wait until the perfect moment to jump onto that carry. Also very good at kiting, which I enjoy.

Kindred Awesome theme, aggressive in nature, plays unlike any ADC in this game.

Karma Versatility incarnate. Also extremely good at kiting.

Katarina I compare her to Sheik from Super Smash Bros (project M specifically), you've got to whittle your opponent down and pick the perfect time to jump in and out of fights to maximize potential. Out of every assassin in this game, she genuinely feels like an assassin.

Ziggs Zany explosive addict with flashy spells, what's not to love?

Veigar Tiny master of evil that disrupts and decimates all that stand in his way. Also very good at kiting.

Vladimir Tanky sustain damage dealer that can chill in the middle of a teamfight dealing high damage and not have to worry about being blown up immediately.

Shyvana A motherfuckin' dragon. Tons of aoe damage, insanely fast jungler clears (making jungle a lot less boring than usual), a solid champion no doubt.

Ezreal The most mage-like of all ADC. I enjoy skillshots and he's got a bunch. Flexibility lets me play him mid or adc, ap or ad. Crazy good at kiting.

VeraskaJan 20, 20162 votes

Agency (how much your decisions impact your fate as opposed to your opponents decisions) comes into play with a lot of these champs, having high mobility and negating mechanics (Lee's disengage, yas wall, fioras riposte) allow you to get away or make moves that you normally wouldn't take without them. An example:

You wouldn't flash into a equally fed enemy syndra as vel'koz because your both guaranteed to take each other entire rotation and syndra, either by stopping your ult with her E or killing you with superior burst, will win, but on fizz or yasuo who can negate that ultimate can make that play

Lee sin has tremendous agency, if he's good at his champion you are playing his game, that kind of agency is empowering, and feeling empowered is really fun

SachabotJan 20, 20161 votes

Okay, so I asked my roommate about this (he's Plat and enjoys the One Kick Man). To him, Lee's biggest draw is his flexibility in build path and playstyle. Wanna be an assassin? Okay. Time to brawl? Sure thing. Pick-oriented tank? Got it. Diver? You know it. He has the ability to utilize both ends of his skill curve simultaneously, and they're almost equally effective.

Personally, I think if all champions had been designed like Lee from the get-go, LoL would be a very interesting and fun place. As for if he should be the bar, I don't think so. I don't like having to invest that kind of time, no matter the reward. But that's just me.

DrCyanideJan 20, 20161 votes

Would you or your friend say the biggest difference is being able to change between those builds on the fly?

I know one thing I love about Ezreal is his build variety. AP Mage/Assassin, ADC, AD Caster, Kite-King, etc. That said, you get locked into whatever build your doing very quickly, if not before the game starts.

Best Valor NAJan 20, 20161 votes

Idk, when you ult someone as leesin and it just instantly kills them with no knockback or anything is probably one of the most satisfying things ever. Its just funny.

TroiannJan 20, 20161 votes

For one he just looks really flashy.

His mobility gives him so many options to make plays.

And I think a Rush quote really sums up Lee's playstyle.

"Lee Sin's strength lies not in his ability to win every fight, rather, it is his ability to choose the fights he can win."

Basically a good Lee player has absolute control over the game. And everyone wants to be that Lee Sin.

Of course most people never see these Lee Sins unless you're in masters or above, but the fact that there's a chance makes him very appealing.

Death by GlamourJan 20, 20161 votes

Because his kit allows him to "outplay" people

Same with the likes of vayne and yasou

X8ViEhkPS0Jan 20, 20161 votes

He has can press buttons more often.

KaeblenJan 20, 20161 votes

before I start, I stopped playing Lee because he gets punished so hard for having high latency or lag. I never got extremely good at him.

with any noticeable latency at all, ward hopping(W) becomes completely impractical. (that was the big one) too much and you can't hit skill shots (Q), and aiming your Dragon Rage (R) in the right direction gets much harder.

Also, the order you use your abilities in matters ALOT. some people can get away with messing that up--lee can't. Even if you get the order right, chaining abilities back to back is less effective for damage (and energy) than weaving in auto attacks between. There are a lot of variables. One of the first things that attracted me to Lee, though, wasn't any of those things. It was the fact that he has 7 skills instead of 4.

in addition to mobility though, (in addition to all these things) I'd like to point out that Lee Sin has pretty much every tool available--or at least the basic ones. 2 dashes. self shield. ally shield. self-heal (via W lifesteal/spellvamp), AOE damage. slow enemies. slow enemy attacks. ranged skill-shot poke. heavy nuke/ finisher (R). reposition enemy. offense and defense benefit from warding. What more can you want?

Now, this isn't to say that he needs all that. But because Lee Sin has so many tools, he NEVER feels irrelevant. Even if he is behind, unskilled, or in any other poor circumstance, Lee can find a way to help his team. That Definitely makes him fun.

DediguiseJan 20, 20161 votes

I'm certainly no pro, and for the record I'm not a "good" lee. But I've been playing him fairly exclusively this preseason.

Here's the thing, Lee is fun to play because he has unique pathing options, a combination of abilities that give you multiple ways to address a potential problem(versatility) and satisfying visual and audio effects. He rewards you for being mechanically skilled and knowledgeable and most importantly for knowing the weaknesses of an enemy team. He has an adaptable playstyle (although a fairly narrow buildpath).

I want to expand on the second thing I listed. Unlike many combo champions his skills are all generally equal in value(although 99.9999999% of the time you will be maxing q first). And his multiple gap closers give him an slew of options when making a pick or tower diving or w/e. For example against many champs it's better to use a ward hop to close the gap and to follow with a q at close range rather than trying to make an insec play( which requires landing a q first) and then Ward hopping behind. I think the biggest thing is that flashing with him doesn't feel bad. And it becomes another button to be incorporated into combos rather than just an escape. Actually one of my favorite plays is flashing then w'ing to an ally or ward then q'ing to my target. The same ting could be achieved with a flash and a zac e, but with far less risk.

The Voids CallJan 20, 20161 votes

It's simple, he has an almost impossible to contest control over the tempo of the fight. He is the one which decides when an engage starts and when it ends, unless he outplays himself by underestimating the power of the enemy and opening with like W/R, then you can't actually outplay a lee sin except for on a hand full of champions who also happen to fall into this category Riven Yasuo Zed , and I've got to wonder if the correlation between their control over tempo (pretty much short CD mobility), and their popularity is coincidence or the cause of both their power and popularity.

Tl;dr lee sin is to forgiving and has to much control over a 1v1 fight. His insane mobility allows for him to control the tempo of a fight, meaning you're always forced into reacting to him.

Comrade NapoleonJan 20, 20161 votes

What is fun about playing lee in my opinion exist in other champs, for instance i love playing shaco i love mind tricks jumping around and tricking with my clone so i guess lee players feel kinda the same, q on jung monsters ward jumping combos with ult and so many tricks, its fun.

now the problem with Shaco that i need to really play well, farm, sneek on enemies and grab kills and assists to get gold then items AND THEN acquire the damage to let say 100-0 that poor enemy ADC. HOWEVER with lee you just DONT, you can 1v1 most junglers early the most of them cant run away from you, others who can out duel you dont have the necessary tools to catch up with you. all that with a simple item 1408 my point is lee has too much damage especially on his ult witch is a point click nuke with nearly no cast time plus the other effects (one of them is a sure hit on your "skill shot" which is really silly) , sure its melee but thats no problem for a champ with so many mobility options.

LaserDeathBladeJan 20, 20161 votes

He has a lot of mechanics in his kit, a lot outplay potential, and is multi-dimensional so he has options in any situation.

Most 'boring' junglers are kind of straight forward. They only have a few buttons to press, and they mostly only do 1 or 2 things but they do it really well.

What makes Lee attractive IMO is if you're a god at Lee Sin, you can potentially do everything very well as opposed to a lot of junglers who can only do a few things really well. This is kind of ironic though because if players were truly 'gods' at Lee Sin they wouldn't be in Gold or Plat or whatever.

IcyPepperJan 20, 20161 votes

What defines "outplay potential?" I keep hearing mobility, but I'm curious to see what you think.

LaserDeathBladeJan 20, 20161 votes

You can probably get a good idea from watching some Youtube Lee Sin compilations

But in general mobility and flexibility give you a lot of options not available to other champs. When a player uses these tools properly they can juke more, engage better, punish mistakes harder, capitalize advantages better, etc. etc.

Simple example is probably Lee Sin spots a skirmish mid or something, observes that major CC abilities are on CD, then ward jumps over a wall, Q->R->Q's someone away from their team and kill them while they're isolated. That's something a lot of junglers can't do, but at the same time most Lee Sins just fk it up and die. If you combo too slowly you're obviously just going to get CC'd and destroyed.

J EevoJan 20, 20161 votes

The overwhelming amount of options he has. Lee sin is incredibly versatile because of how many diffrent tools he has to do his job right - Q that can engage/run away/poke/ execute,

W can wardhop engage/run away / shield allies and himself/sustain

E aoe damage/slow benefitting from W's sustain,

R for running away/single and teamwide cc/burst/aoe damage/ setting up combos(and yasuo's shit).

Add to that early game dominance and good scaling (and wtf is that additional R scaling i don't even)

Meanwhile you look at someone who has at most 2 ways to use his skills, usually 1 for most champions per skill and you wonder why you'd even bother with playing anyone BUT leesin.

Old Man TeetoJan 20, 20161 votes

Feels rewarding to do his combo's, strong early so you can fight whenever you want to as soon as you want to, doesn't use mana so you can sorta spam willy nilly, assassin style of play early/snowballed.

The LovelessJan 20, 20161 votes

I'm no good at the whole Ward hop trick where u dive into the enemy team and then kick their squishy towards yours, but I like that he can choose when to engage with q's second cast. I prefer dps Lee > tank Lee since he has amazing ad ratios, and also used to play him mid instead of top or the jungle.

If you're anything like me, you'll like his damage builds and qq attack. Again, I'm really not used to ward hopping and prefer to manmode my opponent so they see me coming. If I know I have a stat advantage, I'll harass the enemy laner and try to kill or push them out.

Good luck trying an Insec play.

AbyssphereJan 20, 20161 votes

Sounds salty but I think it's just that he's impossible to punish. People will always, ALWAYS go for the safest possible option in their role, and Lee Sin has always been the safest jungler. Being able to run around the map in very aggressive places (e.g. consistent counter-jungling) knowing that you can bail at any moment if it does go wrong (which is in itself unlikely) is going to be enjoyable for a lot of people.

This is why when you compare the two premiere junglers of the LCS, Lee and Elise, you see such a difference in terms of popularity. Both of them have very overloaded kits with lots of options, but Lee has a huge number of defensive options whereas Elise is very lacking in that department. She doesn't get to feel invincible or like nobody can touch her if they catch her, so she gets played far less than Lee, despite being stronger in other areas.