Can somebody explain why the whole juggernaut concept is considered "balanced"?

CorgiParade··2 votes·827 views

Why is this even a thing? Juggernauts are designed to do loads of damage while also soaking up loads of damage. A lot of the juggernauts are supposed to be easily kiteable or whatever, but I'm still REALLY not seeing that. Garen's Q will work perfectly against any isolated champion who attempts to kite him, other than somebody with slows. Illaoi is currently ridiculous, especially with her AD ratios. Darius can flash + E if he needs to. Skarner just isn't SLOW. Mordekaiser might be the only one who is truly kiteable. Are there supposed to be other "cons" I'm not aware of?

20 Comments

Lord Boltrix3 votes

Here is the thing: champion balance isn't solely focused on individual counterpicking, but also what your team as a whole offers, you yourself may not have the cc and kiting ability in your own pick, but perhaps with your team as a whole, that may be the case. After all, if the only way to deal with Heimerdinger - for example - throughout the game was for his lane opponent to pick a hard counter, then Heimerdinger would be extremely powerful and likely seen much more often. But Heimerdinger has weaknesses that show themselves later on the game past the laning phase where he isn't just immobile but has to set up a control zone that people can just simply avoid a confrontation within.

The Juggernauts have their own weaknesses, while they would like to build full damage with a little tankiness, the Juggernauts need that tankiness to be able to survive the initiation into a teamfight and perform to their best. A team of highly mobile enemies will just simply not let the juggernaut engage, and a team of crowd control will peel said Juggernaut so hard they'll wonder if they aren't one of Soraka's auto-attacks. So maybe laning against a juggernaut you don't have the tools to beat them yourself, then adapt: play safe near your tower, get jungle ganks on what happens to be a highly immobile champion who will at least have to burn a flash or commit to his position despite the gank.

Sometimes you will face a lane where you can't do anything too proactive and have to rely on the aid of your teammates, that is a reason why certain favorable and unfavorable matchups exist and why people have to learn to adapt to each and every situation. Unless you are a one-trick pony who can only play one champion in one position, try learning other champions who fare better, or take the time to adapt your own playstyle if you expect to go against that particular champion that brings you trouble.

That is the name of the game: adapt and evolve, and become a Legend.

Erockandroll2 votes

Aside from Darius Apprehend and Scarners ult. They really don't have hard CC. Also, they don't have any dashes. At best they have MS boosts.

The only qualifier I would put on here is, your probably going to want CC yourself if your actually going to kite them. (unless you were say, Kalista)

CorgiParade2 votes

Yeah, I guess the lack of CC is something. However, I'd still say that juggernauts are unbalanced. Garen, for example, can have up to 5000 HP and 200 of each resistance while still being able to kill squishies and maybe even anybody who isn't super tanky.

Dediguise1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, I guess the lack of CC is something. However, I'd still say that juggernauts are unbalanced. Garen, for example, can have up to 5000 HP and 200 of each resistance while still being able to kill squishies and maybe even anybody who isn't super tanky.

lol he has to get to them. which means that your entire team has to be out of position.

CorgiParade2 votes

Yeah, no. He's tanky enough to the point where he can run in and run out without dying.

Erockandroll3 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, I guess the lack of CC is something. However, I'd still say that juggernauts are unbalanced. Garen, for example, can have up to 5000 HP and 200 of each resistance while still being able to kill squishies and maybe even anybody who isn't super tanky.

Well that's because their Squishies. Most glass cannons can't handle bruisers, so they wouldn't be nearly as effective against their slightly tankier cousins.

That in mind, I don't actually think their damage itself is the problem. Trading a tanks CC for damage, while keeping all the surviveability is pretty okay. (in theory anyway) What people tend to forget though is that defensive stats scale way faster than offensive ones. 100 armor cuts physical damage in half. Which is why a Juggernaut who deal way less damage than an ADC will almost always out duel an ADC.

Probably the best counter to a Juggernaut would be a Duelist. Someone designed to 1v1.

Quepha2 votes

The title of the thread says juggernaut CONCEPT but then you start talking about specific instances.

The concept is that they're kitable and have low range. Those kinds of characters need the durability to survive against a full team of 5 for a little bit to last at all in a team fight, and they need the damage to kill a target while surviving to be a threat that demands attention instead of this sort of refrigerator that sits next to an adc who is getting back more health from lifesteal than they could ever deal. To counter this, their low range means that even thinking about trying to deal damage puts them in threat range of someone on the enemy team, and even if they are very durable, they will still eventually go down in a 1v5, and their kitability means that burning cc on them can prevent them from dealing any of their damage at all.

If you're saying that juggernauts are not kitable or their threat range is far enough that they can deal damage safely or their raw power is such that they can't even be focused down, then that isn't a problem with the concept, but the implementation.

CorgiParade2 votes

I gave specific instances because as far as I've heard there are only five true juggernauts in this game right now.

They're kiteable? Sometimes. Low range? They're melee, that's a given. They need the durability to survive, they have the durability to survive, they have the damage to kill more than one target. More often than not, in late game any juggernaut can run into the enemy team, 5 people or not, kill who they're looking for and leave. That's one of the most unbalanced things there could possibly be in this game. At least assassins rely on their target being out of position or isolated.

It's most certainly an issue with the concept. The only times they could possibly be kited is when they're up against somebody like Kalista or Lulu, which in most cases they aren't, so their laning phase is just ridiculous. Team fighting is a bit less ridiculous, but if a juggernaut gets far enough ahead or sometimes even EQUAL in laning phase they can dive 3-5 people.

Quepha2 votes

{quoted}

I gave specific instances because as far as I've heard there are only five true juggernauts in this game right now.

They're kiteable? Sometimes. Low range? They're melee, that's a given. They need the durability to survive, they have the durability to survive, they have the damage to kill more than one target. More often than not, in late game any juggernaut can run into the enemy team, 5 people or not, kill who they're looking for and leave. That's one of the most unbalanced things there could possibly be in this game. At least assassins rely on their target being out of position or isolated.

It's most certainly an issue with the concept. The only times they could possibly be kited is when they're up against somebody like Kalista or Lulu, which in most cases they aren't, so their laning phase is just ridiculous. Team fighting is a bit less ridiculous, but if a juggernaut gets far enough ahead or sometimes even EQUAL in laning phase they can dive 3-5 people.

If your team can't kite any of the champions you mentioned in the OP then your comp is REALLY low on cc. Even having a Janna, Alistar, or Poppy anywhere on your team should make peeling a breeze, any mage with a skillshot snare can shut them down, champs like Tristana and Vayne have more than enough self peel to handle themselves...

CorgiParade1 votes

I should think you forgot about cooldowns, if you think having a Poppy or a Janna suddenly makes kiting possible. Alistar? Sure. It's not like he's going to be in Garen's lane.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

I should think you forgot about cooldowns, if you think having a Poppy or a Janna suddenly makes kiting possible. Alistar? Sure. It's not like he's going to be in Garen's lane.

Wait, you're talking about the lane phase of juggernauts now? I thought you were complaining about their team fight.

CorgiParade1 votes

The teamfighting only gets ridiculous if they do well in lane, which is way too often.

AHeroNamedHawke1 votes

{quoted}

Why is this even a thing? Juggernauts are designed to do loads of damage while also soaking up loads of damage. A lot of the juggernauts are supposed to be easily kiteable or whatever, but I'm still REALLY not seeing that. Garen's Q will work perfectly against any isolated champion who attempts to kite him, other than somebody with slows. Illaoi is currently ridiculous, especially with her AD ratios. Darius can flash + E if he needs to. Skarner just isn't SLOW. Mordekaiser might be the only one who is truly kiteable. Are there supposed to be other "cons" I'm not aware of?

So literally anyone?

Also Apprehend doesnt pull dashes anymore, so its extremely easy to avoid even if he does flash

CorgiParade1 votes

So literally anyone?

Sorry, what? I don't understand.

CorgiParade1 votes

EDIT: I also realize that for the most part the juggernauts can't really carry. They mostly fall off if the team isn't doing well (except for Garen.)

HEAljvLykd1 votes

You complain about Juggernauts, someone else complains about assassins (Zed, Rengar, Talon), others complain about Veigar and other mages, others complain about items (Frost Queen's). If everyone is complaining about everything, everything is balanced.

CorgiParade1 votes

I really don't agree with your point of view at all. I legitimately don't see a reason why juggernauts could be considered balanced. They lack CC, and they COULD (COULD!!!) be kited, but those are the only cons that I can think of. Assassins always have a definite, abusable downside to them, which is typically their squishiness or susceptibility to being killed in a team full of players with crowd control. Assassins can't get kills in teamfights unless somebody is out of position. Mages have similar issues with squishiness that assassins do. As far as items go, my only complaint is that AP items were nerfed and AD items were buffed.

Juggernauts? They're a whole different story. I can think of maybe two weaknesses that they have, and one of them doesn't even apply all the time. Kiting and lack of CC, the former being the one that isn't always possible. Juggernauts do incredible amounts of damage, and they can also soak up incredible amounts of damage. I see people complaining about Tahm Kench, but I think that the juggernauts are just as bad as he is. Juggernauts may not be able to carry a team like other champions do, so if the rest of the team isn't doing at least decent then the juggernaut will lose the game more often than not.

In order for me to consider juggernauts "balanced", they really need to be evened out. I don't think any game should ever allow situations where somebody is unkillable, which happens quite a lot with juggernauts if they are ahead in the game. That's just how it is, but it's not how it should be.

Dediguise1 votes

Juggernauts are antiengage champs. They murder teams who rely on hard engage because they want you to come to them. They also tend to work better when fighting multiple people. As long as you trade evenly with them you can beat them by split pushing or kite comps or anything other than wombo combo. They lose against duelists, but have an easier laning phase than duelists.

So basically they counter go to strategies of low level players. To beat them you actually have to outplay and or outthink them.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

You're not supposed to be able to get away from juggernaughts 1v1 once they have Dead Mans, or else they'd be completely worthless. They're still very easy to kite and collapse on as a team, so do that. Juggernaughts are carries that are tanky and provide an excellent counterbalance to anti-carry teams that have pretty much dominated League since it was released. People always asked why they should pick Garen and Darius over Maokai and Sion, and now they have their answer. And people always asked why they should pick control mages over assassins, and now they have their answer for that too. Juggernaughts finally filled in the third side of the triangle: mobility which counters ranged which counters juggernaughts which counters mobility.

Gigahappytown1 votes

Juggernauts are slow champions that deal lots of damage and take lots of damage

they are designed to win if the enemy just runs at them and trys to fight head on

However due to items and other champions juggernauts are not as slow as they supposed to be leaving them with little counterplay

IE garen and items like swiftness boots black cleaver zz`rot deadmans

and darius morde illaoi with champions like zilean lulu and items like deadmans righteous glory and that item 3069

Right now garen is the only viable juggneraut due to him being _very _ hard to kill and being very fast.

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