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I'm Frustrated with Riot's Balance Team

Praetor Don··108 votes·7,285 views

Expect this to be updated and edited once I realize how bad this is formatted/grammar.

I don't even know where to begin, I'll try to be civil as possible and I ask that you the community do the same.

I'm tired of being pigeonholed in the jungle into 3/4 different champions, forced to buy one of two choices for smites, and how difficult it is to jungle (low xp, low gold) even though I rarely play jungle. If you screw up a gank, you're behind.

I'm tired of the same champions every game.

I'm tired of Kalista , LeeSin , JarvanIV , Zed , etc.

I'm tired of the nerfs to champs that may be problamatic, but wouldn't even be considered OP in most people's minds.

I'm tired of the hypocrisy and being left in the dark.

I honestly don't understand why the changes in patch 5.4 to Kassadin and Veigar were put through when there's so many more issues with mobility (think Nidalee ) and "counterplay" (think Kalista ).

I shouldn't have to rush the same item every time I go up against Zed if I want to have even a chance of winning.

This is one of my biggest issues, DFG is removed, certain champs that DFG was core on are promised compensation. What do we get? Ahri : mini-rework, insanely broken when the changes first go through on her q Veigar : mini-rework, "counterplay adjustments"/nerfs Mordekaiser : mini-rework, I don't even know what Mordekaiser is supposed to be anymore, a bruiser with no damage/cc?

I'm not high elo, I don't claim to be the best at the game. However, I have played for a while (since season I). I'm entitled to my opinion, and everyone else is as well. Take this for a QQ thread if you wish, however, all I'm asking for is more clarity from the balance/reworks team.

I posted a satircal video as a joke, and it's the top of the boards, not something I thought would happen. As sad as this is, it shows the general consensus of the vocal part of the community at the moment. Take this into consideration.

tl;dr You really should read the whole thing. Basically, asking for clarity on why they're doing what they're doing from the balance/reworks team.

Thanks for reading.

53 Comments

Retillin17 votes

The only one I understand is is Veigar. I don't agree with it, but I understand. Veigar was being used in Asia as a support to counter hyper mobile champs (esp Kalista). Riot was not happy with it, so they nerfed him.

DomainSpecific6 votes

The problem with Veigar is that his stun offered very little counterplay until you got a full MR item while the champion as a whole was rather weak (pretty similar to Eve's situation).

Now, Riot gave A LOT of counterplay to his stun without buffing enough other parts of his kit, making him way worse since his only redeeming feature was removed.

It's like if Riot removed Poppy's passive but gave her 10 less mana cost on each of her spells.

Retillin2 votes

Poppy is my favourite champion... I am so scared for her rework...

A Superb Villain29 votes

Veigar "You're next."

http://i.imgur.com/aBIhi6n.jpg

Retillin1 votes

Hahaha, oh god that's amazing.

Trídent1 votes

That face will give me nightmares.

PerishSoftly1 votes

Ahahahahahaha! Oh god, I saw that and was like "Wood League Adventures!"

2 much sauuuce4 votes

10/10. You have my upvote sir

Yormaughm4 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Superb Villain,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=u1lNGs1v,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-27T01:52:53.595+0000)

Veigar "You're next."

http://i.imgur.com/aBIhi6n.jpg

I also play Poppy....and Evelynn. And I'm scared for both of them. Riot just hates every champion I play, or me in particular, I'm not sure which.

MrBuffington1 votes

I think/hope since Poppy is actually due for a rework/relaunch, a better comparison would be to Sion (arguably among the more successful reworks/relaunches) than Veigar (minor changes, I wouldn't even call it a rework).

Rrett1 votes

pretty similar to Eve's situation

wah!? Eve was strong, really strong, in that she could pretty much 3v1 and wipe out the tankiest person instantly. That's not exactly weak.

LeeDark2 votes

No, like Retillin said, the problem with Veigar is that soon enough, pro players were going to be playing him as a support to stop those #LCSBigPlays from the ridiculously mobile champions.

ecneregilleb11 votes

I think the problem is Riot thinks they are providing clarity with why they do certain things in patches with the "patch rundowns."

Normally I like the patch rundowns, they are pretty informative and explain why some changes are made with relatively un-baised opinions or reasoning behind the changes that they do... that said, this past one was appallingly 100% baised on their side. They actually brought in live balance guys (frankly I'm surprised they even showed their face, the way a lot of people are upset at that particular department the past month or so) to "explain" why they did what they did, even though what they explained was counter-intuitive of the truth.

One of the more ludicrous things I remember from the rundown was "Sivir has very short range, so beating her up with Caitlyn is a very good option in lane" (paraphrased only slightly) ... ... ...Sivir is like the best counter to Caitlyn. Spell Shield basically negates an entire ability of Caits (traps) which gives her endless mana to continuously spam Boomerang Blade all day, making up for range immediately. She never actually HAS to get in Caits range, lol. Dont forget she can Spell Shield Cait's ult too! Arguably there are ways for Cait to outplay, but that line just floored me for a second watching that video.

This line came from a "Live Balance Team" member. I lost a LOT of faith right there and then. It's the first time I actually ever felt this way towards the live balance team.

Next up: Kassadin is mentioned. They claim to have balanced him around competitive play, saying he stamps out picks because he's super oppressive. The only example they give of picks stamped out? Lux. A champion that was seen once (to my current knowledge) in the past 2 seasons in competitive play (HotShotGG played her when he subbed midlane at one point.) BTW, he lost. Miserably. And not to a Kassadin either. Logic.

I feel like they just kind of skimmed over the fact that Veigar could potentially achieve the same amount of AP that he can now post Q-rework. Sure he can hit 2 minions at once now, but unless they forgot... the same amount of minions spawn each wave. Veigar players have been extremely vocal about this fact, claiming that they could easily get most if not all of the minions per wave anyways when it was a single target ability. So the net gain of AP over the course of the game is literally 0. It's now just "easier to obtain" That's where I feel true Veigar players feel cheated, because he received a delay on his E (personally I do agree with this mechanical change. It makes sense; though .75 second may be a touch high), but also R got toned down. So overall, it's basically a full nerf. They called them buffs (9:50 in video).

These are just the primary examples that stood out to me. I did indeed watch the video a couple times to actually go over all the changes in my head and actually think about how they affect the games current live status.

To me, it just feels like they are trying to fix the leaky sink while ignoring the overflowing toilet.

B3ER10 votes

I successfully pulled off jungle Alistar today. Fuck what Riot wants.

Keevalroy11 votes

{quoted}

I successfully pulled off jungle Alistar today. Fuck what Riot wants.

Nerfs incoming.

aaronconlin4 votes

Jungle Alistar used to be a thing, and it was strong as hell so Riot already nerfed it. They wanted Alistar to be a support that can roam, so people took him to the jungle and did well, so "diversity", Riot nerfed it.

Although I will admit, getting head butted away from your tower then knocked up all in one second is pretty messed up

Newb the Legend1 votes

{quoted}

I successfully pulled off jungle Alistar today. Fuck what Riot wants.

Braum and Alistar jungle ftw

Thefriendlyorc8 votes

Morde changes are so confusing. He has a lot of the same problems and his 'buffs' are niche at best. The most devastating change is his regeneration nerf that devastated his laning.

Learn 2 Swim8 votes

multiple people are downvoting any criticism posted towards riot pretty much 24/7 so the topic gets buried

Sir ArmaMalum5 votes

Obviously I can only speak for myself in this case, but I can say I downvote a good bit because there's a difference between criticism and, to be frank, bitching. Specific points and reasoning being the main factor.

This thread specifically admits to being an individual opinion as well, which is a lot more than most can claim. I see a lot of posts that claim their opinion as facts and refuse to believe otherwise. Can't reason with them, so downvote.

Praetor Don2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir ArmaMalum,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=u1lNGs1v,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-02-26T21:54:48.559+0000)

Obviously I can only speak for myself in this case, but I can say I downvote a good bit because there's a difference between criticism and, to be frank, bitching. Specific points and reasoning being the main factor.

This thread specifically admits to being an individual opinion as well, which is a lot more than most. I see a lot of posts that claim their opinion as facts and refuse to believe otherwise. Can't reason with them, so downvote.

I've seen similar opinions from around the forums, my friends share many of these opinions (from unranked to diamond). I admitted this could be taken as a QQ thread, but all I'm really seeking is closure. Please excuse the salt, and thanks for stopping by.

Sir ArmaMalum3 votes

Sorry, I hope you didn't interpret that as dismissal of your post, I actually appreciate your post more than most. Largely in the fact that you admitted it was an opinion and gave specific pain points. Opinion being opinion people can disagree with you but not change your points because they're stemmed from your experiences specifically.

In other words, I can't say I'm having the same issues that you point out, but neither can I say they're not happening. And while I'm no red I can at least say I appreciate the fact that you thought about what you're going to say instead of spewing vitrol. Thank you.

Hibeki13 votes

You have to admit there is a damn good reason to bitch at this point.

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

Being upset does not excuse raging for no given reason. And even when reasons are given if you refuse to consider all the possibilities then you're simply being part of the problem. The simple fact is, people will be upset at change. People will espeically be upset at change they don't immediately like.

I can't say "wait it'll get better", because people want change now. And that's understandable. They don't like how the game is right now but lo and behold the game has more than one or two champs, mechanics aren't as simple to balance as numbers and yes, there will be champs who are all around stronger than others.

Believe it or not it's changes like these exact ones that keep this game going. There will never be a 'perfect' state for the champions roster, it's impossible. Perfect imbalance is an actual design strategy developed more by the playerbase than anything Riot does.

Change will hurt. Big changes will hurt a lot. I'm completely ok with people being upset, I'm not ok with people refusing to consider other views. But sadly this is the case with every patch, the only difference is it's different people. Wait until a big Renekton or Shen change, then I'll be right where you are.

Hibeki10 votes

It's not being upset, it's being rightfully pissed off because riot is hypocritical in ANYTHING they do.

They say they listen but they don't at all.

Keeping changes going this way will just run this game to the ground.

LeeDark6 votes

Why calmly list the reasons? Not like Riot is actually listening anymore. Or they ever were, for that matter.

Nobody complained about Veigar, his pick rates and win rates weren't ridiculous. Some Asian teams were playing him as a niche support to counter champions like Kalista, a role Annie took up in the NA and EU LCS. And that was enough for Riot, simply because at some point years ago, they said that if Veigar saw play, he would have to be nerfed. They tried to disguise it as a rework, but that was just a load of crap. They didn't rework him; they nerfed him. Hard.

Sion was a rework. Do to Veigar what they did to Sion, and people might be a little happier. Make him virtually unplayable, and you are going to get bitching. And rightfully so.

SeCKS Egai3 votes

{quoted}

You have to admit there is a damn good reason to bitch at this point.

I have trouble even finding the motivation to run a co-op to reset first win these days, I don't get what they were thinking with introducing so many changes, particularly jungle which inadvertently affected everything else.

MuseCub6 votes

Bro.... just stop giving A f*** , i did

Praetor Don27 votes

{quoted}

Bro.... just stop giving A f*** , i did

I want to improve the game through feedback, I want to believe that's still possible.

Minrog20 votes

It's not possible anymore.

They parrot the same excuses about win rates, lack of counterplay and not wanting to play balance whack-a-mole as they did 5 years ago. What they really do is just randomly change stuff and cross their fingers. Once a change has been made they move on to do other make work.

The players of the game don't have any way of affecting this cycle. DOTA 2/HON never had a chance because they are basically clones of a hokey mod from 10 years ago with bad design principles. We'll see if this new Blizzard MOBA forces Riot's hand or succeeds in breaking the monopoly. If anyone can steal all of your casual gamers it's Blizzard.

BetterNerfRelly5 votes

I think they have a shot with Heros Of the Storm. It simpler but funner to play and the objective focus of it is leaps above the current mess LoL is in. In a year we will see how strong it is but right now its make playing Mobas for me more fun on average LEAPS above what League is right on average.

Count Tobi4 votes

Bitch what did you say about DotA

Hizsoo1 votes

Than you should start writing e-mail to the competent Riot employees in the office and don't give a f'k about boards. I imagine there are a lot of people who wants to improve the game through feedback here, but it is not really working out.

Waterstar13 votes

Balance does not exist in league ^^

Basidiomycota2 votes

{quoted}

Balance does not exist in league ^^

balance does not exist becuase every champ has to be mobile or no one wants to play it. veigar was not mobile at all so they just murdered him while everyone watched

Keltulis2 votes

All those Champs you listed are able to make LC$BIGPLAY$ while characters like mordekaiser and veigar cannot. Therefore, kalista, jarvan, and lee can be OP but those two cannot.

Rout logic at its finest.

bulldoggamer2 votes

I may not agree with you entirely but i just want to thank you for being civil. Its a rare thing to come across on these boards. So thank you for being civil. Me and riot (i assume) really appreciate it.

Leti the Yeti1 votes

welcome to the club bro, membership fees is 2800 RP a month enjoy your stay

NoblePeace1 votes

I respect Riot for all that they've done to make changes, but honestly I feel there not taking a proper direction. For example, yay a new support champion that can zhonyas a whole team, but why can't Taric make plays with his gems? I use to see everyone agree they'd rather see new defined older champions made new again, but now we have a new op champ coming out in place of, maybe instead of buffing the game we're slowly leaving behind we can just get rid of half of the older champs and start over? One thing is for certain, though, you often see the same champions, every match, and what we said might be read or might be ignored, my opinion is simple if you move forward you have to pickup your feet, if you don't pickup your feet then you're hardly moving forward.

MrBuffington1 votes

Maybe I'm just naive/optimistic, but I do think the game is headed in a good direction long term. The random whack-a-mole champion nerfs are discouraging, as well as the consistent and seemingly misguided nerfs to jungle, sure, but the frequency of reworks and systemic changes, again even though/if they prove problematic in the short term, it seems to me at least that the game is on the upswing, and that Riot might actually be working to fix some of the long standing issues that have worked their way into the game over the years. It probably means the game is going to be out of whack for a while, but I think/hope it'll be better in the long run.

In the mean time, the game is still far from unplayable, especially in solo q (you can get away with most things in solo q), there are always ways to adapt; I've changed my main many, many times, and I've learned to play old mains well enough to bypass some of the balance issues.

SEKAI1 votes

I am really, REALLY frustrated over Morde's "compensation".

This dude and me go way back, I HATE to see him receiving a nerf for absolutely NO reason at all. Can we just pretend that we never talked about giving him compensation buff in the first place?

Because this is just ridiculous, dear lord, what in the hell were they thinking when they were tweaking Morde?

aliRIPTUP1 votes

The Itemization choices is one of the biggest problems in league diversity issues.

E.g. We have the supposed Poke>Sustain>All-in trinity @ Bot... but the best start is the DBlade start. It's the best item for all ins. Hence the lane trinity favor's all in play over the other 2. So while Mid, Top and Support have plenty of viable and counter options for starts ADC has Dblade... Dblade or die. It makes the ADC champ pool real small and that is beyond boring.

kep675651 votes

PraetorDon, I'm so proud of you for writing this post. You have so many comments!! Why don't you come down to dinner tonight so we can talk about it? I'll try to be as civil as possible. lol Love, Mom

KaisadiIIa1 votes

if RIOT just stopped ignoring feedback from their community... And I'm not talking about all those "akali op" qq posts, I'm talking about feedback done by Diamond players, or people that have the most games played with certain champions, or well-reasoned, civil posts that bring new ideas that, may be balanced or not, but they are worth at least trying. Hell, PBE is supposed to be a test environment, we are supposed to see there a lot of tentative, experimental changes that may or may not ship to live, but at least they are tested. But nope, PBE is just what RIOT uses to debug what they already want to ship to live, your feedback is pointless for them, they just want you to report bugs.

The only team I can tell they take feedback seriously is the art team. When a certain skin or champion looks ugly or can be improved, they do i. On the other hand, balance team will ship what they want unless it's proven game-breaking (Lucian's PBE R). And that's why complete disasters like Cassio's rework has been shipped to live even when literally everyone told them it was unnecessary and useless.

Basically, asking for clarity on why they're doing what they're doing from the balance/reworks team.

btw it's worth saying that they have the legendary, politician-like ability of writing a whole paragraph without actually saying anything.

shadecrapper1 votes

They aren't doing a good job are they? Nurfed AP fizz, but made him an AD/tanky monster... he's even more broken now! Just took a dump on 3 champs that really didn't need anything done to them, or at least not out right nurfs. Are making any jungler not JarvanIV {{champion:64}Vi or RekSai(vi and Lee too) life in the jungle rather hard. It's not by chance you basically only see them

Newb the Legend1 votes

I can jungle with Noct, I just choose not to if Vi isn't banned because she can dominate through the whole game and doesn't fall off as hard compared to Noct

sethrock1 votes

preach

Nilok1 votes

A big concern I have is that the Balance Team may have a strong echo chamber now. People who are not in that group (us) find the changes out of touch and appear like favoritism towards specific champions by not touching them.

The Balance Team most likely gets feedback from people they talk to in the office, the most vocal posts on reddit/boards, and their metrics. The problem is these is that they only give a slice of the game, and even worse, metrics can be incorrect or manipulated as UPS is now going to have to be dealing with thanks to their Telematics system having bad data due to driver gaming the system so they don't get punished, which is simply a human thing that happens when someone knows they are being monitored.

Riot is going to need to do a lot of work to rebuild trust and improve constructive communication with feedback. When people don't trust you, they view you with animosity. When there is no constructive communication, people begin to resent you.

The last thing that needs to be fixed is the Gameplay Balance forum itself. Threads like these are born out of the mistrust people have for Riot and posting gameplay feedback gets buried under the resentment people currently have for Riot. This isn't constructive for anyone. The Gameplay and Balance forum should be for balance itself, not questioning if riot even listens or if such posts are even worth our time.

Riot will need to make major strides, as will we. This last point will not work without both sides coming to an agreement. If we change and Riot doesn't, these threads will simply bubble up again and it will revert to how it is and the mistrust will only grow stronger. If Riot changes and we don't, it will simply reinforce for them that we just need a place to vent instead of help improve the game and just try and run damage control as they move forwards with their changes.

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