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Can we talk about Marksman/ADC build pathing, it is in a poor state.

aGa1axy·4/15/2015, 2:49:58 AM·36 votes·4,101 views

I am a Diamond 2 Marksman/ADC main and I am writing this in hopes that Riot will look into ADC build pathing because I believe it is in a very poor state.

tl;dr BT, Botrk, Essence Reaver should be changed to be good first items, BT and Essence Reaver should not be built out of BF Sword.

PROBLEM: First off, ADC's having to go IE first hurts them in many ways, first off you have to buy a BF sword early in the game. BF Sword SHOULD NOT be an item you have to buy in the early game, it is too expensive, no other role in the game has to buy an item component that costs anywhere near 1550 gold so early in the game. Popular starting items for others roles are athene's, morello's, any jungle item, ROA, trinity, frozen heart, spirit visage, etc. When building these items you do not have to sit on a lot of gold like you do when buying IE. For example, when building morello's you at most have to sit on only 880 gold to combine it, for frozen heart, you have to sit on at most 450 gold to combine 2 cloth armors to make warden's. But with IE you have to sit on 1550 gold to buy 1 piece of IE while, for example, morello's is made of 2 items that cost 820 and 600 gold, and those items are made even cheaper items. This is also bad for newer players. When I play normals with my friends that are mostly silver I constantly see the other ADC go back and not buy anything because they feel they are really far behind if they don't buy BF sword first.

PROBLEM: Due to ADC's having to build IE first, they are very weak until they hit 2 items. IE is not a good item by itself so you are extremely weak until you get an attack speed/crit item. Before when BT first was standard you had 100 AD which was great for your autos and your abilities so you could start fighting right away. If you watch pro games, especially in korea, you see pros buy an avarice blade after pickaxe or bf sword in nearly every game, this is because they know they are almost useless until 2 items so they are going to farm as much as possible to hit 2 items faster. I think there is a problem when we have ADC's buying early gold generation.

Problem: ADC build pathing problems continue throughout the game. Right now, tanks are extremely strong and ADC's are the main role to take down tanks. Right now the standard build is IE, Shiv, Last Whisper. The problem here is you cant do much to change this build. Before with BT start, you would get zeal second and if you have a tank on the other team get ahead or if you fell behind you could very easily just get a last whisper after getting zeal, then finish PD/shiv. You do less damage overall but you still have everything you need to kill the tank, lifesteal, attack speed crit, armor pen, you just have a little less atack speed and crit, which isnt a huge deal. But in this current patch you have to finish PD or shiv after IE because if you do not youre not getting much out of your IE because you dont have enough attack speed and crit. Whether you are behind or not it doesnt matter you have to stick to that build. Next you need lifesteal, you can buy a vamp scepter which delays your build by 800 gold and doesnt help you very much by only giving you 8% lifesteal. Then you get last whisper. Now you have another problem, if you need to buy mr, which you do at some point in almost all games, you can buy a null magic mantle but now you have 6 items with vamp scepter and have to wait 2700 gold until you get a BT. This is a huge problem for obvious reasons. If you decide to go with mr and bf sword you have to get 1950 gold with no lifesteal to get BT, which is extremely difficult to do especially in this current meta. If you decide to risk not getting mr and get bf sword and vamp scepter you can run into the problem of gettiing one shotted incredibly easily.

SOLUTION: BT should be changed to not build out of BF Sword, it should instead follow a similar build path to ghostblade and BotRK. I am not sure exactly what the stats and components of BT should be because it is something that needs lots of testing but idealy we have 3 options for ADC's to build early, BT which can give lifesteal and AD, BotRK which can give lifesteal, AD, and attack speed, and Essence Reaver, which gives lifesteal, AD, mana regen, CDR. The pathing for these items should be something along the lines of bilgewater + long swords, or maybe vamp + brutallizer, etc. IE can remain the same because buying BF late game is fine.

51 Comments

Saianna4/15/2015, 3:15:51 PM13 votes

"no other role in the game has to buy an item component that costs anywhere near 1550 gold so early in the game."

item 1058 Ofc mages have to buy mana regen item first.

Yeah you also don't need to rush IE. Sometimes it's worth it, sometimes not.

This thread came to life because ADC main can't live with new meta that doesn't include ADCs. That's all.

Now you can all downvote me.

FantasySniper4/15/2015, 5:00:52 AM9 votes

Building the lifesteal items out of item 3144 is not a good idea. You'd need to add an active to every one of them to stay consistent. If BT built out of two Vampiric Scepters and BFS, I'd be cool with it.

If item 1038 built out of lesser components, like they did with item 1031 item 1057 item 1011 and are about to do to item 1043 , there would be a better build path for these items.

ER needs a differing build path from BT, but it can't be using a unique advanced item. That would cause too many balance issues with mana-dependent AD laners. I propose Forbidden Idol just plain added to the build path, and it doesn't need to replace what BFS becomes.

Woken Spectre 4/15/2015, 2:49:26 PM3 votes

If find your post disappointing, you seem to complain about the inner essence of ADCs themselve, and not about true problems, Because I agree with you, the build path is poor but for other reasons. First of all, Concerning the awkwardness of ADC items such as BF-made items which are really hard to buy, I think it's intented, and even more, i claim that it's precisely what makes ADCs what they are : A late-game power.

It is something that must be part of ADCs items because it allows to create really powerful items for ADCs once they're built as a reward for a really hard buildpath. Also a really hard buildpath makes sure Solo Laners won't jump in ADC items, you know if Botrk wasn't made of midgame items people wouldn't build in solo lanes, and that's it in a classic ADC build you only have items that are hard to buy or that are not efficient unless you already have another item that is hard to buy ( item 3046 item 3087 are only efficient if you already have item 3031 without what bruisers may want to buy them if they want an AS-based agressive option.) (item 3085 only buildable buy ranged, and so on ) And directly it seems altought that Adcs are have so few options that they to do the opposite : like to buy items that were first made for bruisers to get an Early power spike (item 3142 ) And as long as the item for adc is not awkward to build else bruisers/assassins/ oridon'tknowwhatrole tend to build it too, because then it's OP (item 3035),and when an item is clearly made for ADC item 3508 people don't build it, it's never strong enough, and people would prefer to have it for their bruisers and just look at the treads about Essence Reaver, everyone wants an early buildable item in the path so they could spam on Toplane. and you don't want that do you ? (Pantheon )

Also, i really don't get why you would like Adcs to have to get LS as a first option only, i mean it should be a choice, but not the only option. Why could'nt people chose between an early/lat LS ? Because you seem to regret more a 100AD items, which i would like to have for Casters ADC to be efficient early and who would get beaten by AA ADCs in Late game because they would have a crit-based build which as you said, needs more items, What is the point of having only One choice early ? Which is a really akward game period for ADCs, when BT was the first Items only Caster were viable options because it was OP, now it's the opposite, because if your character can't handle to start by IE then it's not viable. I think riot should try to give more Options to ADCs, How is it normal that a caster adc builds as much crit as an AA-bases one ? How is it normal that you have only one armor penetration viable option that you build every game ? How is it normal that you have only one DMG+Crit option ? How is it normal that you have no early counterplay against AP carries when they have some against AD's ? I think the whole of the items lately created by Riot are in a Toxic situation or an unviable one because ADC items are really getting insanely strong in late. How is it normal that your build is the same for 90% characters ? And how do you explain that the few exception never make their build differently in more than 90% of the games also ? Why don't we have something like a REAL offensiv option out of sheen ? Why should we share the more bruiser-like option ?

Let's be serious LW is OP,botrk is else useless else OP (Vayne ), same for runaan Kalista ) i think ADCs should get more things to custom their stuff according to their characters, the build isn't necessarily bad, it's boring, it's always the same. Now you are defintely right with the tanks being OP being a problem, but that's the fact of Bami stuff now, not the fact of ADC, balance will make it normal again in a few patches.

DJ Di04/15/2015, 4:08:40 AM3 votes

As for champions not having to buy such high priced items, most Mages have to rush Hourglass when matched up against Zed/Talon. In those cases, I'll usually farm up until I have enough for item 1058

Earl Eulrich4/15/2015, 4:43:19 PM2 votes

-> http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/live-gameplay/hbEj1jWi-can-we-finally-phase-crits-rngesus-out-of-the-game

If we could change Crit to make it less mandatory because it´s just blantly overpowered early on if you get lucky and later on as a scalingfactor anad also adds burst and dps at the same time - making it the jack of all trades as Carry-itemization currently. If Crit stays untouched you´ll always have the IE/Crit-build ruling out everything else. BT/Botrk and even Reaver are already strong first items...but compared to an IE and a little luck they are just too balanced apparently.

Cindikle4/15/2015, 3:05:45 PM1 votes

BF swords are for power buys. Just like NLR. It's not rare for a mage to buy an very early NLR.

IE is rushed because it's so strong. Making BT's build path easier to follow wont really change this. Although I don't have a problem with it.

ER needs the item that was on the PBE that gave it some early game power. Currently Muramana outshines it in almost every way aside from the CDR. Which you can just invest in somewhere else with the 1k gold you saved.

junglerboy164/15/2015, 5:32:31 PM1 votes

I don't really care about what item an ADC has to build first, I just don't like that the only variance within each ADC's build is the order they build things in, sometimes deciding whether to get one crit item or another or to get X Y or Z defensive item.

As it stands, Mages build anything and everything including: item 3001 item 3174 item 3708 item 3716 item 3724 item 3146 item 3151 item 3100 item 3285 item 3041 item 3165 item 3115 item 3089 item 3027 item 3116 item 3040 item 3020 item 3023 item 3135 item 3157 item 3152. That's a lot of choices, and almost all of those items are used by at least some mages, some using almost all of those items effectively depending on the situation (only Mejai's, Twin shadows, and Gunblade don't show up regularly)

ADCs however build from the limited pool of very similar items: item 3153 item 3508 item 3022 item 3026 item 3031 item 3035 item 3004 item 3156 item 3139 item 3046 item 3085 item 3087 item 3072 item 3078 item 3142 item 3172 item 3141 . That might not look like a short list, but more than half of these items have redundant niches. The items that aren't redundant in their niche are the ones that people build almost every time.

item 3087 and item 3046 have no significant choice, the only question being which is statistically stronger.

item 3153, item 3508, and item 3072 have a slight choice, but almost always are also related to which is numerically superior.

item 3156 and item 3139 for MR, item 3035 and item 3142 for armor pen, item 3087 and item 3085 for wave clear, item 3172, item 3078, item 3087, and item 3046 for mobility, and so on.

The difference is that ALL ADCs primarily deal damage through right clicking, where mages deal damage through spells and abilities. almost all of those ADC items are exclusively based around how much damage you right click for, where the AP items have unique effects like Stasis, burn damage, on-hit effects, stacking mechanics, scouting, resources regeneration and more.

Curling Veigar4/15/2015, 6:06:46 PM1 votes

We should nerf jinx while we're at it too

JedenVojak4/15/2015, 6:45:34 PM1 votes

Couple of problems here.

First, yes bf sword is expensive, but you have the benefit of another champion dedicated to protecting you and getting you fed.

Second, ranged AD marksmen in this game are overpowered, or at least, considered to be mandatory. If they weren't, I wouldn't see one on both teams in every single game, so I don't really see any problems in their itemization.

Third, being weak early is probably the cost of having unmissable, no-mana-cost, sustained, ranged damage.

Finally if you're tired of building bf sword items, I believe Ezreal and Corki can get away with building a item 3042 or item 3078 first, while Vayne goes with item 3153.

I think the high emphasis on IE goes with the notion that you're playing the high sustained damage champion. I'm sure you could get away with other builds, you just won't do as much damage.

A Miss Fortune4/15/2015, 9:54:52 PM1 votes

I feel like ADCs typically build Infinity Edge then Phantom or Shiv (clueless to why Shiv even exists when Phantom is so much stronger and reliable) and when these two items are built they will start dealing tons of damage.

I think a few items could be made and a few nerfed so the build isn't so easy to guess. Really even Kalistas and Vaynes still build Infinity Edge immediately sometimes. The build path just needs to be edited so every ADC doesn't basically have an identical build.

MrSlowDie4/15/2015, 10:28:59 PM1 votes

they are very weak until they hit 2 items. IE is not a good item by itself so you are extremely weak until you get an attack speed/crit item.

I don't mind if a carry has to have weak early game.

Mandaari4/15/2015, 11:36:41 PM1 votes

Definitely agree aside from the assumption that IE is strictly a late game item, and thus doesn't need to be addressed pricing-wise. There are some carries that are very crit dependent, like Ashe who only has one AD scaling. TBH I think NLR and BFS both need to just build out of smaller components, like pickaxe + long sword x2.

Compare ADC items to AD caster items. You could build 6 straight long swords and have them all build into something that an AD caster would user. Traditional ADC builds only use two long swords.

Rivvy4/16/2015, 6:17:23 AM1 votes

Meanwhile tanks.

DontBanMeImDrunk4/15/2015, 2:52:14 AM1 votes

why are u commenting on these boards?

BlazinHot64/16/2015, 12:18:30 PM1 votes

Ive seen several of your examples in-game, where people are waiting for a BF sword. Im, also, an adc main. I dont agree with your reasoning and I see it as a problem where players are either a. limiting their options bc of a guide/advice or b. wont be flexible on their build path. Half the time in lane, you will have to back before you have ~1600 gold (item 1038 +item 2003 's). You need to then be flexible, bc going back to lane with nothing is the worst thing you could do. If you have an awful lane you can only buy a item 1036 . A lot of times I will buy item 1037 +item 1042 , which is not that bad vs a BF sword as most people try to say it is, expecially if you're in a mildly-passive lane where you can get a little poke going. Ultimately, in a perfect world I always want to start item 3031 item 3006 . Then based on if the other team has invested in armor or not, I choose between item 3072 and item 3035 . You absolutely need to be buying a damage item for the third item and most likely the fourth. I see a lot of people get shiv and PD as their third, but I rarely see that work out.

WolfChases4/15/2015, 3:51:06 AM1 votes

Yep, start with item 1055 and 1 item 2003 and wait for 1550 golds to go back and get item 1038. Who cares if you constantly have to trade in lane...I really hate to recall and come back to lane with item 1037 ...

LoL..I forgot...you can get ganked and forced to use ur potion or SS HEAL before you get 1550 :D :D So you cant sustain till 1550...Great. B.F should cost around 800-900 tbh.

RogueWill4/15/2015, 4:20:34 AM1 votes

I really don't see the problem with ADC being weak early... I mean they have their support for protection, don't they?

SerBlaise4/15/2015, 1:39:10 PM1 votes

I think the reasoning behind the expensive BF Sword is to try to push the adc's power curve into the late game. If you can't buy your big item without farming for a good while, then you can't get your power spike. maybe there is a better way of working the power curve, idk.

HeWolf4/15/2015, 2:11:54 PM1 votes

Of all the problems you've listed, I only agree with you in the buildpaths of BT and ER.

ER has been asking for a functional buildpath for a while, but the fact that some (a very few (okay, 3 or 4)) champions can actually use it in some specific situations makes it hard to change since they might be overpowered if the buildpath was somewhat easier. The item itslef should be changed and that could be a potential gamebraker.

BT is a great item that would be cool if it presented an alternative buildpath to ADCs. The thing is, ADCs are meant to be a big lategame force so their builds are usually the optimal to reach that point as soon as possible. They are optimized to the point that every ADC has ONE optimal build that they MUST follow in order to be that latagame monster, regardless of earlygame weakness. The only alternatives you have are Shiv/PD and you decide between them by your wealth at that moment.

Botrk is an item so easily exploitable by bruisers or fighters that I wouldn't recommend to change it substantially because it is always borderline broken.