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The Cassiopeia PBE Kit Update: Non-PBE Edition

Tolinar··5 votes·1,268 views

I don't have a PBE Account so I can't comment on the other discussion - that's its own problem, in and of itself...

... more importantly, I don't think I like these proposed changes to Cassiopeia, because it damages every reason I play the champion.

  • Major loss of Zone power and lane pressure. I understand this is intentionally getting nerfed, but while Cass's ability to safely force enemies down was important - equally important was her ability to safely farm. Miasma was already very on-and-off about last hitting until its power was increased substantially. With the total power on her W halved, it's more likely that Cass will simply tickle minions.

  • From no dependence on cooldown, to a cooldown contradiction. Cass's abilities used to properly sync up with her cooldowns. She was a champion that never needed cooldown. Now you have increased her cooldown rate while at the same time dangling a huge, sudden cooldown spike on Cass's Passive Stack; you tempt players to simply avoid getting cooldown and dealing with pauses between abilities until they get it for free.

  • From straightforward, strong AP ratios, to confusing auto-scaling AP tradeoffs. Noxious Blast now has a terrible AP ratio, and Miasma has also lost a large rate of power. Cass's new passive grants her a 30% AP Boost when maxed (very late game) This might seem appealing but it COULD be translated into simply a 30% AP Ratio Increase. Allow me to demonstrate.

To give this new passive some much-needed CLARITY:

  1. What do I get for damage?

Cass's current ratios of Noxious Blast: 0.8 Miasma: 0.15 Twin Fang: 0.55 Petrifying Gaze: 0.6

Are being traded for these AP Ratios that grow like so, from (Previous) 0 stacks (start) --> 187 (midgame) --> 374 (late game)--> 375 (maxed)

Noxious Blast (0.8): 0.35 --> 0.376 --> 0.4 --> 0.455 Miasma (0.15): 0.1 --> 0.107 --> 0.115 --> 0.13 Twin Fang (0.55): 0.6 --> 0.642 --> 0.69 --> 0.78 Petrifying Gaze(0.6): 0.5 --> 0.537 --> 0.575 --> 0.65

Let me remind you that AP Ratios are like growth multipliers. Cass has lost a fairly large amount from her flat skill damage, but her growth curve has also essentially been "wimped" on everything but Twin Fang. I will come back to that, but for now let's focus on clearing up the truth with this new passive.

  1. How long does it take to stack? (edit: Oh neat. The boards are too stupid to see the header as a 2.)

Provided you use every single poison skill to poison an enemy, and an average foe takes 4 seconds of damage from Miasma (they get out of it fairly quickly) you will get: 3 stacks per 4 seconds from Noxious Blast, level 1 on. (0.75 stacks a second) 4 stacks per 15 seconds from regular use of Miasma from level 3 on. (0.26 stacks a second) Up to 6 stacks per 30 seconds for killing 6 minions that are poisoned. (0.2 stacks a second)

Like Nasus's or Sion's passive, it can be stacked faster or slower depending on your ability to last hit - but also on your ability to hit enemies with your skill shots. In theory, A Cass could max this passive out in 6 minutes of laning - but I estimate it will take a more average player from 25 to 35 minutes to max the passive.

Let's get back to my main criticisms.

  • Cass's kit has become too one-dimensional. She's lost a lot of her flexibility and nuance; She is simply Twin Fang girl now. This is my main criticism to this adjustment.

Cassiopeia has lost 30-50% of the flat damage, half the early move speed boost, 40% of the mana efficiency (more, early) and 50% of the growth, from Noxious Blast.

She's lost 50% of the flat damage, and 33% of the early growth, on Miasma, as well as the ability to keep her zone of control constantly projected early on. Now it will be cooling down half the time. Later with free 30% CDR and a better 'ratio', you finally get your old skill back.

She's lost 25% of the damage and 20% of the growth on Petrifying gaze, for ten measly seconds of cooldown. (less than 10% cooldown improvement)

So she lost her cheap and safe Karthus-like harasser, she lost her consistent zone control, she lost her waveclear and she lost the punch to her key AOE ultimate... What does she get for all these "tradeoffs"?

Twin Fang has lost 33% of its flat damage, but gained 5% more early growth, scaling up to 23% more at the very end. It also has a mana refund, so it can be used to last hit those minions that are not going to die anymore from your poison, and later tacks on a modest heal.

Also, when maxed, Noxious blast gives 10% more move speed and Miasma slows 10% more. But who's going to max those? So that means, the slows and move speed bonuses are weaker and less frequent than before, until later in the game.

There's no question. Every aspect of Cass's damage potential has been watered down, except her Twin Fang. She is now 100% reliant on it. She needs to use it to last hit, because she now needs the mana fixing and her poison isn't going to kill minions as reliably any more, even if she levels it up. She can't rely on Noxious Blast and Miasma to grind down early opponents... which means in matchups against Zed, Akali, Fizz, Katarina or Talon, she now has no way to win - she would have to get close enough to land Twin Fang, and she's not tough enough for that. Every assassin mid just got a golden ticket to feedsville. And she's nowhere near burly enough to muscle around an aggressive top lane, like a Jax or Riven.

  • Because of Cass's new, one-dimensional kit, her item builds have also become one-dimensional.

Cass used to be able to build a little tanky and do just fine, because her total AP ratios were so strong and her poisons could frequently kill enemies after death. She had room for it too, with no need for cooldowns. Now with an AP Ratio flat heal on her E, Noxious Blast and Miasma doing tickle damage, and all her ability damage/healing/mana recovery stemming from spamming Twin Fang every 0.5 seconds, there's not much question.

She has to be built AP Glass Cannon. Otherwise, Cass's entire rework is for nothing. Her flat damage and ratios are now too pathetic to manage anything but the highest-hype Twin Fang.

I think I have covered all my reservations about this kit. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go practice Swain... I am about to lose my mid Farmer/Bruiser Carry.

11 Comments

Ceteral3 votes

The changes are taking her from a capable jungler to almost not possible which is my biggest concern. I love jungle cass. :/

Serpents Embrace1 votes

From no dependence on cooldown, to a cooldown contradiction. Cass's abilities used to properly sync up with her cooldowns. She was a champion that never needed cooldown. Now you have increased her cooldown rate while at the same time dangling a huge, sudden cooldown spike on Cass's Passive Stack; you tempt players to simply avoid getting cooldown and dealing with pauses between abilities until they get it for free.

This this this this this! I can deal with the loss of damage from base and ratios, especially if the "consistency" is as good as they claim (but I doubt it). This huge CDR spike on a kit that now craves CDR ASAP is so stupid and seems like it will feel so bad. Not to mention the whole problem with CDR over saturation in the first place, and how TERRIBLE it will feel if you ever wanted to try Athene's or Morellonomicon (which is always in my build on 3s) because it will push you over the cap and make you feel stupid.

The item concern is so valid, too. She's currently so flexible, and I just don't see her being half as good with Tear items or Spell Vamp/Spirit Visage MR tank against heavy AP team because the kit just doesn't seem to support that as well with the huge focus on spamming E to get any real damage.

YouLostMe1 votes

Since Stashu said the numbers are up in the air, I don't think pegging growth rates or % loss in damage is a good idea. But to the non-number problems you have...

  1. Cass is supposed to last-hit with twin fang The mana refund and bonus mana gain, along with extra damage and life gain on twin fang makes it so she won't "tickle" minions but will instead poison them and then spam twin fang till they die. Farming is easier than before, especially at low levels.

  2. Yes, encouraging players not to buy CDR (and remain weak) and then be rewarded with CDR is weird. But it's not bad, it's just weird. It also allows for a huge power spike. I don't see this going through because the jump in power is counter-intuitive, but I don't really see a problem with having Cass wait for bonus stats to come.

  3. The AP ratio changes are not confusing unless you make them confusing. The point is that her earlygame gets nerfed (AP runes, items, masteries let her bully less) while her lategame gets buffed (AP mostly cancels out, but Rabadon's and other passive effects are bonus). This is a good place to talk about how much you say she deals no damage, when you did the freaking math and showed that her overall AP ratios are almost unchanged if you account for passive AP, except the spell that got a buff is more spammable so her dps is probably going up.

  4. Her mana efficiency has not gone down. There is a mana refund on twin fang, and I would be surprised if her mana efficiency goes anywhere but up. Now that her old passive is gone, her play patterns are less of a noob trap too.

  5. Saying Cass is too one-dimensional is like saying marksmen are too one-dimensional. She has a spell that's point-and-click and deals damage with a low cooldown. Her other abilities set her up for the point-and-click. That's pretty much exactly what a marksman does, and the concept space for marksmen is so enormous that there's a whole role dedicated to them.

  6. She has lost damage on her Q, and her W, and her R, so that she gets more damage on her spammable twin fangs ability. That is totally awesome, especially considering her R got 10 seconds more uptime and she gets free 30% CDR. She now has passively has ~40% CDR over her old kit.

  7. People who will be maxing noxious blast and miasma are people who will be level 15, which is a pretty common level to play at. I don't see how giving more lategame speed/slow is something you should ignore for a character that is designed to be a lategame carry.

  8. You appear to be severely confused about how assassins burst people down. Not everyone is like leblanc with full line of sight and a DFG ready. If Cass gets near someone to harass (like she's not supposed to) she has a slow and a speed boost to get away when they jump on her. If she burns both of those spells to harass or is too far out to get to safety when attacked, then she's being played very poorly and that's not a problem with the champion.

  9. Cass is definitely not one-dimensional, especially considering how many free stats she gets. Her high CDR and low-cooldown mana refund lets her spam more lategame so she can pick up Rylai / Liandry. Her high AP ratio on twin fang lets her go for large burst. She can rush Catalyst and get a RoA without feeling bad for not being a lane bully. Her really large AP also makes her a good choice for Lich Bane if she wants more burst. AP Glass cannon isn't even the beginning of her possibilities.

Serpents Embrace3 votes
  1. So I use all my abilities to farm and push lane to expose myself while wasting the tools i would otherwise use to try to starve assassin lane opponents farm so they can't blow me up as soon as they buy an item.
  2. It is bad, not weird. It limits the number of items Cassiopeia can use and not feel wasteful. You want to buy anything with more than 10% CDR? Prepare to waste some gold. Morellonomicon is out for good. With the overabundance of CDR in items, pots, buffs and masteries you're basically FORCED to get something else. Azir's AS for CDR is smart. Giving people heaps of CDR is bad - just check Zyra/Heimer CDR. It's dumb and it makes them feel bad for itemizing things that would otherwise appeal to them.
  3. The AP ratio changes understate how important Cassiopeia's early game is to her mid and late game. If she can't bully someone else off farm - they will outscale her. Even with the E changes, because no matter how consistent it is it won't matter when that Ahri or Zed with the same gold of you blows you up before you can cast it three times.
  4. Yes, you get mana back if you waste a cast on a minion. Unless you're speed clearing all the minion waves with all your abilities because your lane opponent is AFK it's a high risk, low reward mana refund.
  5. Except Marksman have access to crits. Marksman don't have to continuously choose their auto attack targets, because champions will remain attacking something if you don't issue another command. You don't have to follow them with your mouse. You're free to move the screen manually while you chase, or free to line up your dash to secure a kill or escape a CC. Cass doesn't have that, and because her E is a continuous point and click she won't and with this new style of play on her she isn't compensated with good damage on her other abilities. And calling her itemization one dimensional is completely valid when the entirety of the CDR group of items has been forced out of her possible pool.
  6. It's really not "totally awesome". If you land Qs in lane you don't get anything for it, and if you land them late game but can't chase in to range for E you don't get much from it then either. 30% isn't much higher than the current 25%. And YET AGAIN, free CDR is NOT a good thing unless you're playing a match with no items.
  7. :\ You're severely under-estimating how important laning is to Cass, and how the new kit would make her laning phase the complete opposite of what it currently is.
  8. You appear to be severely confused about how assassins burst people down. :\ If LeBlanc is your go to, you're a few patches behind because most f them have strong CC.
  9. You're right. She isn't one dimensional. She WILL be. Free stats make characters more one dimensional. Balls of stats do what they do, have strict itemization because they only need one or two stats because their others are compensated, and are only capable of doing specific things in certain situations because they're not adaptive or flexible. Look at Jax or Fiora. They basically get pigeon-holed in to the same builds every match they're played because they are almost non-functional with them. No matter how you want to argue "but you could get [other AP item] on her now" is useless because there's still a whole section of the store (and a large one, at that) which will no longer be a good option for her because she will waste a large portion of the stats.
YouLostMe1 votes

  1. Yes. That is how being a carry works -- you are weak earlygame and strong lategame. Assassins are your counter.

  2. This is like saying "There are AP ratios on Zed, and that's bad because people want to itemize AP on Zed". It's only bad if you want to do weird unintuitive things, which is to say it's not bad.

  3. The AP ratios are to [i]compensate[/i] for her buffed lategame. She has lower ratios because she gets more AP and more twin fang spam. And no, Ahri and Zed will not blow you up if you are good unless it's normal (remember, you're a carry) or you play very poorly.

  4. This is a spell that has a 0.5s cooldown if it procs off either poison and literally gives you 3% mana at no cost if you last-hit with it. How on earth is that "high risk, low reward"?

  5. Marksman get crits while Cass gets better AP scaling, so that's moot. The continuously attacking targets is not a thing -- at any moderate level of skill, you will want to constantly re-evaluate who you are attacking (not to say anything of the people who literally make their attack a keybind). And no, losing some (not even all) of the CDR items and literally none of the tanky AP, pure AP, utility AP items is in absolutely no way "one-dimensional". I already even gave examples.

  6. If you land only your Q and no other spells then you will deal very little damage, sort of like how a Jinx landing a snare but not auto attacking will deal very little damage. This isn't even a bad thing, it's how gating is supposed to work.

  7. I assume you're conceding that being level 15 is common, but yes I agree that Cass's landing will be very different. And that's good, because her current laning involves her bullying the enemy carry in unhealthy ways, and now it will not involve that.

  8. If "LeBlanc is common" is all you got from that point, I'm going to ask you to read it again. You can literally replace that with "Syndra", "Kassadin", or "Fizz" and the meaning is identical. Again, you appear to be severely confused as to how assassins burst people down.

  9. No, she will not be one-dimensional. I'm sorry if using present tense confuses you, so I will stick to future despite her currently being on PBE. Free stats do not make characters more one-dimensional (Marksmen and Soraka say hi), and she will be nowhere near a "ball of stats" considering she literally will get 2 bonus stats and 1 of them is a multiplier (she has to build it anyways). And again, the "whole section of the store" is literally only items with 20% CDR and nothing else. That counts... item 3174 item 3060 item 3110 item 3165 item 3050 and item 3187. Considering how many of those would actually be useful on her, I can't see much one-dimensionality at all.

Serpents Embrace2 votes
  1. Clearly, we're going to need to establish a mutual definition of "carry" because ours clearly don't align. To me, a carry is someone who is a primary damage source. They can be ADCs (Marksman) or APCs (generally Mages, but also some Supports and Fighters). However, the power curve of "weak early, strong late" does not apply to all carries. Caitlyn, Graves, Miss Fortune, Teemo, Urgot, Quinn and a few others have notably strong laning phases, but are weaker in team fights or sieges - or both! Since there is no traditional laning late game and all encounters fall under lane sieges, jungle team fights or objective skirmishes these "carries" do not follow the power curve you describe. Why should Cassiopeia be forced to subscribe to that power curve when it's one she currently does not fill and honestly doesn't seem to have the capability to fill?
  2. You're going to need to use a better analogy because that one doesn't make any sense to me, as AP doesn't have a hard cap.
  3. "They won't kill you unless you're bad" is terrible reasoning.
  4. Without any ability to trade they will stomp all over you in lane regardless of how either of you play. They have the tools, and you will have none until you've maxed out your skills and have a sizable item collection and you're not going to get those when they can zone you out and kill you repeatedly because you have no safe farming tools and no trading potential.
  5. It's high risk, low reward because it's never going to be in a vacuum. Using it to farm and still have .5 seconds means the target needs to be poisoned. Currently, that's easy enough if you want to push a lane because your Q and W are maintainable assuming you have mana. This will no longer be true, as the cooldowns are longer (much, in W's case). In order to utilize Twin Fang's mana refund you will need to poison a minion before you kill it. Your poisons are AoE, so this will push the lane. Then, you need to use Twin Fang to hit a minion low enough to die to it. This will broadcast your location, as well as keep you stationary during cast. Congratulations, you have not only told your opponent what you are doing - you've used at least 2 of your 3 basic abilities to do it - and therefore have an almost non-existent chance of retaliation when you eat their skill shots and auto attacks.
  6. Criticals are 200%+ your regular damage. The additional scaling you get per rank of E doesn't compare, and can't because it's consistent. "not a thing" to how the game works? Re-evaluating doesn't come in to play in to how the game functions. "What your supposed to do" has nothing on how the game actually works. Your champion will continue to attack and cause damage until you give further input is a thing that happens. I didn't say it was the best, I didn't say it was what they should do. It is simply a game function. One that Twin Fangs will never have a comparable function to because it's an ability.
  7. You just compared a damaging harass ability to a utility CC ability, this is on par with your AP Zed analogy.
  8. You'll really need to clearly define "unhealthy" and "carry" for this comment to make much sense.
  9. Syndra and Fizz definitely to not have the same burst pattern as LeBlanc, as they both use CC up-front to disable counterattacks. Most assassins have CC or powerful dodging tools - both of which Cassiopeia can't deal with late game which seems to be to your liking. However, neutering her late game also ensures that she just can't deal with them at any point of the game. You won't be able to beat a clumsy Fizz or LeBlanc in lane by chasing them down after their burst with Qs. I'm not upset assassins deal with her late - it's upsetting that she can't deal with them early because that's the point in the game she's able to outplay them and stop their late game from ruining her.
  10. Marksman and Soraka are not balls of stats. I'll go with Soraka, since you named her specifically. Soraka gives no permanent stats, and can only give health and temporary armor. It's not the same as a ball of stats. It's not even close
YouLostMe1 votes

  1. You're right, I'm going with the old DotA version of "carry", which is "scales really well with items, crap without items". But that is what Cassiopeia will be filling, and she will have the capabilities to do so. Whether or not she belongs in that role is a different question, but your complaint is about how her kit is terrible and doesn't work and etc etc. Whether Cass should be a lategame character with consistent DPS instead of an something else is a different topic entirely.

  2. You said that Cass players will feel dumb for buying CDR and that makes her design bad. I told you that's like saying Zed should have AP ratios or else people will feel dumb for buying AP on Zed. That is because both statements make the same amount of sense -- certain champions are designed to get and not get certain stats. You would not buy AP on Zed, you would not buy CDR on Karthus, you would not buy Crit on Veigar.

  3. I suggest you re-read what I said, because there is a difference between playing a champion in the wrong way and "being bad". Now, I would wonder why you (as a player of a squishy character with a weak earlygame) is trying to trade with an assassin instead of just farming from range and outscaling them. Unless you're doing it wrong on purpose...

  4. So, I'm going to have to clarify a few things for you, since you appear to be confused. First, Q and E both have range so you can use these abilities away from your opponent and you don't need even need to get within range of their gap-closers. Second, Q has a small AoE and can be targeted to hit one or only 2 minions. Third, you don't actually need to get the cooldown reduction on Twin Fang to get the mana regen. Four, more than one champions can use two abilities to farm (hi Ziggs, hi Syndra) and they don't get totally jumped on by assassins even when they use it to clear an entire wave. Now that you know those things, you can see why Twin Fang isn't nearly high-risk while still providing a rather large reward.

  5. I think you need to remember what this discussion is about. This is not about whether a Marksman can do more damage than Cass if she casts absolutely nothing except Twin Fang (because that's nonsense). This is about if Cass has a one-dimensional build, which she does not because her scaling AP gives her the same breadth of itemization as marksmen and her Twin Fang cast patterns are pretty much identical to marksmen attack patterns. And again, you really should know that marksmen auto attacking whoever they first attacked is low-skill behavior and that few to no people with experience actually do it, making the playstyles of Cass and marksmen relatively similar (and thus there isn't anything lose in terms of required items).

  6. When I write an analogy that compares one thing to another non-identical thing, it doesn't mean the analogy doesn't work. I encourage you to read it an think about it, because the point is not that two identical abilities cause two identical outputs, but that two similar abilities cause two similar outputs.

  7. The word "carry" was never mentioned in my comment, so it's weird you want a definition here. But I defined it above for you. The term "unhealthy" means "bad for the game". And since Cass's current lane bullying is bad for the game, you can see how it perfectly fits the term "unhealthy".

  8. Again, when I write an analogy that compares one thing to another non-identical, thing it doesn't mean the analogy doesn't work. In addition, I think you need to remember the context of this discussion. This is what you said

she would have to get close enough to land Twin Fang, and she's not tough enough for that. Every assassin mid just got a golden ticket to feedsville

To this I responded that "not every assassin is like LeBlanc with full line of sight and a DFG ready" (which is to say, not every assassin can instantly burst you down to 0 HP). Because such a thing does not exist, and thus assassins will not be able to totally kill Cass every time.

Janna, Yasuo, Taric. Free Stats =/= Ball of Stats

Serpents Embrace2 votes
  1. So you admit that the main issue I take with this rework is true, but you continue to argue that it's invalid. This is a radical change from her current power curve, and it's not one that's a smooth transition, either. Cassiopeia is an established character with an established fanbase - not even the designer working on it should have the right to come in and decide what she should be when she already is something else, and it's not a different argument since her identity is under the knife in this one.
  2. That's still just a really shitty comparison. Cassiopeia is actually very strong with CDR now, it's one of the reasons Morellonomicon is good on her in TT. It allows her to have her ultimate up more often, and works well with her current Q and W's cooldowns if you need more zone control. "Buying AP on Zed" is not a good comparison because he has another purchasable stat that is functionally the same in AD. There is nothing Cass would be able to build in place of, and giving her an assload of free CDR just worsens the already existing problem of CDR oversaturation. So maybe you can stop with half baked analogies and give me a real reason for force Cass out of items she's already buying.
  3. :|
  4. You are so fucking condescending it's getting really difficult to try to respond to any of your ill thought out messages because the majority of them are blatant insults. With the changes proposed, Cass' Q and W do not deal enough damage to effectively push a lane as quickly nor as safely as Ziggs or Syndra. Having to use the shorter ranged E will put her at risk, and must be done minion at a time. You will be at more risk than a safe farmer, but you are still expected to get safe farm while at the same time poisoning enemies (who more oft than not will not be grouped with minions) in order to accrue stacks of your new shitty passive. So tell me, how is it low risk when you're expending so much for something so easy for others?
  5. What this is about? I never said she has to deal more than a traditional ADC. The problem here is you're pretending that her DPS potential will be as easy to utilize as a traditional ADC when abilities do not have the same type of functional support that an auto attack does. She will become more one-dimensional because her passive, bases and ratios are not going to support some of the alternative builds she can currently function with. She needs AP for the % gain on the passive to really mean anything. She needs AP for the healing off of E. She's not going to be able to buy lower tier AP items or defensive items because instead of being slightly less effective she'll be a quarter or less at best.
  6. :|

I assume you're conceding that being level 15 is common, but yes I agree that Cass's landing will be very different. And that's good, because her current laning involves her bullying the enemy carry in unhealthy ways, and now it will not involve that.

Take your own advice. And I'm stopping here because I'm just too drained to respond to any more of your insulting replies that deal more with attacking me and my experience than actually continuing the debate or supplying anything new to the narrative.

YouLostMe1 votes

  1. You are communicating two issues. The first is that this is not he normal Cass identity (I agree), the second is that the current kit is too weak (I disagree). All comments from me thus far have been contending the latter because your entire post is pretty much on the latter. I'm glad we got that cleared up.

  2. Yes, if you buy CDR on new Cass in excess of 10% you will be wasting that CDR. However if you buy AP on Zed in excess of 0, you will be wasting that AP. Buying stats that are not useful is not nearly an uncommon thing. The only thing that is uncommon is that the stat is delayed, which is an uncomfortable power spike, but that's not really bad like you keep saying it is.

  3. I suppose the point flows.

  4. You are literally telling me things that aren't true. I assumed you were confused, so I was clarifying them. If you already know those things aren't true, you probably shouldn't say they're true. For example, saying an assassin can totally kill Cass every time she comes to farm doesn't make sense unless you also think Cass isn't ranged. Saying Q will push a wave doesn't make sense unless you think you think Q cannot be aimed. And no, she will not push as quickly or as safely as Ziggs or Syndra, but they set a precedent for farming with 2 spells and not getting insta-shanked so obviously there is design space available for Cass to farm safely.

  5. This is what I said at the beginning of this comment thread:

Saying Cass is too one-dimensional is like saying marksmen are too one-dimensional.

I then went on to describe how her play pattern is like a marksman's, and that since marksmen do not have one-dimensionality, it's really not likely that Cass will have one-dimensionality. You the replied by saying that Cass does not play like a marksman (I refuted that on the basis of skilled play) and that marksmen have access to crits (I refuted that on the basis that Cass's AP steroid boosts her available item choices equally). Then you started talking about how marksmen deal more damage, which was confusing and pretty unrelated.

If this is too complicated, I can just explain the reasoning of each analogy instead of making analogies. I understand that it's difficult to see intent on the internet. It's just sort of weird that you dismiss the analogy as wrong by misinterpreting it.

For some reason, I missed the word "carry" in that. Probably because I didn't intend to write it. Good call. Pretend it doesn't exist since it's a typo, and the rest of the point flows.

BONUS: Having never attacked your personal experience or insulted you, I'm confused as to why you think those things are true. I'm here to clarify everything about this argument you are confused about, including how Cassiopeia's kit works, the kits of other champions, and what my analogies mean.

ploki1221 votes

Something I suggest for headers is the use of sharps.

#This is a title gives this

#This is a title

Which apparently doesn't work like before (or may work differently in comments), but used to be able to put double (##) or triple (###) sharps to change header style (more sharps means smaller headers usually).

As for the actual topic :

  1. Damages I believe it's a small damage buff in the long run, since your E will deal more damage (and heal you). However, it is true that you lost some amount of poke and early utility. Overall, this change (once the passive kicks in) I don't mind much. She's getting retooled and different, I'd wait and try her before I complain.

  2. How long it takes to stack Since you're proccing 3/4 seconds on Q, you can't proc 3 seconds on E, the best you can do is 1 every 15, or 2 seconds every 15 if the enemy stays poisoned for 5 seconds. Otherwise, I find it kinda ridiculous to see that

  3. Cass' kit is now one dimensional This one is a bit sadder. The fact that all her damages are frontloaded onto her E, and E refreshes on kill means that you have absolutely no reasons to level anything except E. On top of that, it means that her playstyle is pretty simple; Is someone poisoned? If so E him/her, otherwise poison him/her when it's safe. I liked the usage of W for zoning and Q for safe farming/poking/both, right now, both of these are much worse until late game.

  4. Her item build is one dimensional Actually the guy in charge of Cass commented a bit, and if you get Raba + %AP masteries, it would in fact be 44.45% bonus AP you have, not 65% since they stack multiplicatively (so AP1.31.05*1.3). So with standard masteries and AP quints + scaling AP blues, ou get 501 AP... I chose DFG instead of Seraph since it's simpler, but I suggest going RoA, Tear, Rabadon, Seraph, Void, GA for some overwhelming APs. It gives you a neat 850AP, while keeping boots and GA., you can trade boots for DFG to reach roughly 1065APs.

TL;DR : It's too soon to complain imo, but I really dislike it too. I feel that bruiser Cassiopeia is gone for good, and support Cass is also much much worse.

Beldori1 votes

Big question in my mind is what will be the CD on her twinfang WITHOUT poison since it is now a last hit tool, if we try to keep the CD low with poison it will either throw off timing on last hitting or push the lane or even both.

I think they need to remove the poison cd reduct for twinfang while changing the CD for twinfang to what the reduct is(0.5 sec i think) and take half of twinfangs damage become the proc on poison instead so using E to last hit is smoother and meshes a little better

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