@Riot Meddler or Repertoir- Stealth and True Vison

biomaster·Aug 12, 2015·2 votes·2,168 views

I read one of your comments regarding Akali's twilight shroud and how'd you want to remove the hard counter effects of true vision from trinkets and wards.

First of all does that mean Riot sees true vision items like that as bland and unimaginative countering or is it just Akali's case being special? If you d consider it as unfun and uninteractive countering would there be any plans to change this at some point?

As a Shaco main who's played a few other stealth champs I've always felt salty on how Riot gave me this really fun ability I can do alot with, but then they give everyone a free counter that doesn't even take up an item slot to counter it.

Yes I am biased but I'd like to here your take on the matter. Pls and Ty.

12 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 12, 20155 votes

Imo true sight as the current only answer to stealth is not ideal. Maybe it means we should be using more Eve stealth type stealths, or maybe access to true sight shouldn't be so instantaneous of an effect as it currently is with Pink Wards and Red Trinket. It would be cool if stealth users could outplay or mitigate anti-stealth mechanics, but really all they currently have is getting out of line of sight of the true sight source.

ArchenzAug 12, 20151 votes

May i ask how that new ward is doing? If we get a good counter to stealth that would mean you would be free to buff champions like twitch and Evelyn!

I understand things like stealth are had to balance around kits, like any other champion besides eve would be broken with eves passive, so that's why she cant really be as strong or have as much cc as others. But something like the mandarake ward would allow you to buff them

DesideriumAug 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Maybe it means we should be using more Eve stealth type stealths

I don't think so. Having more innovative stealth could be an amazing solution, but then there will be a lot of clarity issues with that. There will be a lot of new players that will be confused when they put down a pink ward that claims to reveal stealth, only to get killed by an enemy that had a "different kind" of stealth.

Proximity-based stealth, like Eve, isn't innovative at all. All it basically does is just force you to buy a pink ward instead of a green ward if you want to protect your lane from her ganks. Additionally, the range where she becomes revealed to you is far too low to be able to play against her meaningfully. She just shows up, because her ult range is the same range as her reveal range, slows you, speeds herself up, and breaks off her Q key while killing you. She may not be a rework priority, but we really don't want any more of her mechanics in this game.

It is pretty hard to brainstorm different ways stealth can work in this game, though. Evelynn's proximity based stealth is a failure gameplay-wise. Akali's area of effect stealth is actually interesting, but is far too easily countered, and just feels like it falls short of what it could really be. Talon's stealth is probably as well done as stealth can get in the game, because it does more than just stealth him. Even if the stealth is taken away, he can still use that mobility to do other interesting things, like more easily dodge skillshots while his E is down, or catch up to his fleeing targets.

I think Talon is the best example of stealth, and his stealth should be used as a standard when implementing it in the future. Don't give someone stealth just so they can 100-0 someone without them having a chance to react (Eve) or just a little bubble that can very easily become pointless (Akali) but something where the stealth is an added mechanical bonus (Talon) that he can use to outsmart his enemies if they don't have a pink, or catch up to them when they do.

TheLastBaron88Aug 12, 20155 votes

I think stealth as a mechanic is made harder to deal with by a lack of true sight as a champion mechanic. Was really surprised when Quinn was released without Truesight on her W, tbh.

macromiteAug 12, 20151 votes

I just thought of a good idea, what if instead of a standard pink there would be something like a ward that has rek'sai tunnel vision instead. it doesn't reveal who is there, and it stops showing them if they stop, and it won't reveal on minimap so you need to actually watch it. it would still help against stealth ganks, and still be a meaningful counter to stealth in general, but it won't be as hard of a counter.

SuperLuigiLXIVAug 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Imo true sight as the current only answer to stealth is not ideal. Maybe it means we should be using more Eve stealth type stealths, or maybe access to true sight shouldn't be so instantaneous of an effect as it currently is with Pink Wards and Red Trinket. It would be cool if stealth users could outplay or mitigate anti-stealth mechanics, but really all they currently have is getting out of line of sight of the true sight source.

Waaaaaay back on the old boards, I posted about this and got ignored. Riot needs to rely less on wards and "avoid this area" type effects, and more on actual champion effects. Short-lived vision skills, like Quinn's Heightened Senses or Ashe's Hawk Shot, need to also reveal stealthed champions for a short duration and ping them. Things like Kalista's ghosts probably don't deserve that, since they last too long. I'm on the fence about whether or not Warwick should have it on his Blood Scent; I'm inclined to say he should for the purpose of being a hunter who sees you by smell. Diana's moonlight needs to reveal stealthed champions. Most marks that champions can put down need to reveal stealthed champions, like Kennen's Mark of the Storm or Gnar's Hyper. I would even go so far as to say Thresh's lantern should reveal stealthed champions, on account of it's a lantern, and that Orianna's ball should have a radius of true sight around it. Pix should also have a radius of true sight; one of Lulu's spells already explicitly uses Pix to keep vision of an enemy. Other interactions are easy enough to come up with.

I believe that stealth detection as a mechanic belongs on utility-focused champions. Supports mainly, but champions in other lanes that have a focus in teamfights over individual plays should also have something. Take top lane as an example. I would be against giving Tryndamere or Singed stealth detection, since their weakness is meant to be getting caught, and Tryndamere isn't a teamfighter anyway. I would be against giving stealth detection to Maokai, seeing as his entire kit peels for people. But Shen lacks Maokai's peeling, he needs to be more proactive with his protection, zoning, tanking poke with his shield, etc. So maybe he gets stealth detection too. Garen has almost no form of peel and a lot of difficulties engaging, since he's mostly limited to "run at the enemy team," so I think it's reasonable that he should be difficult to engage on himself in return.

And, of course, as more champions get anti-stealth, you guys can start using stealth more freely as a mechanic.

One thing I do think should happen is that certain bits of stealth should be enhanced--but only VERY SPARINGLY. Like, Akali's Shroud should probably also do bush-style "you can't see in here unless you come in here" since she's very reliant on the Shroud for her mind games and survival. Wukong's Clone skill should render him immune to True Sight, since he's so reliant on mind games and absolutely needs that one second of stealth to try and outplay the enemy. Perhaps Shaco's ult or Leblanc's passive should also be immune to True Sight, since they're such short periods of invisibility and play into their kits heavily defensively (and offensively in Shaco's case).

Vistha KaiAug 12, 20151 votes

Frankly this works both ways.

For example Karma's Focused Resolve granting vision of the target, but not preventing Akali from entering stealth and effectively breaking the tether.

Or was it stealth(pun not intended) changed? I don't remember that being in patch notes.

ZaenosAug 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Imo true sight as the current only answer to stealth is not ideal. Maybe it means we should be using more Eve stealth type stealths, or maybe access to true sight shouldn't be so instantaneous of an effect as it currently is with Pink Wards and Red Trinket. It would be cool if stealth users could outplay or mitigate anti-stealth mechanics, but really all they currently have is getting out of line of sight of the true sight source.

Just tossing an idea around, but maybe stealth could involve cones of vision? Invisible unless an enemy is facing you. It could encourage actually stealthy vs careful play rather than just 'you see me or you don't'. Clarity wouldn't be too difficult if cones became visible while in stealth, though I'm still thinking how it could be clear for everyone else...

Also, have you considered a mini Eve- style effect for Teemo's shrooms? Like, walk slow and careful and you may see and disarm them, but run blind and you're likely to trip over it?

ZyorhistAug 13, 20151 votes

what if vision of a stealthed unit showed a blurry version of them that took up a larger radius. Skill shots could hit them still but nothing else could (ie no lock ons) and their hitbox would be the same as they are still within the blurred area somewhere. Creates counter play for both parties and doesn't remove either effect from the game.

Prospector PeteAug 12, 20153 votes

I understand where you come from, but they can't just remove true vision entirely. There needs to be some sort of counterplay to champions like Shaco.

biomasterAug 12, 20151 votes

i understand, I just feel like there could/should be more interesting/interactive counterplay then just hit 4 when he qs. People always complain how unfun it is playing against shaco but when everyone and their grandmother has oracles really makes me nothing more then a glorified split pusher

ShahamutAug 14, 20151 votes

RIOT, have you ever considered getting rid of trinkets and leaving that special slot open as a WARD item slot?

Giving the trinket slot is cool, because it encourages everyone to help in the vision game, but I feel like people are crutching on it as an excuse to not buy more.

Not having free pink wards available would be a step in the right direction I think.

(Also, throwing a plug for ruby sightstone letting you place one more ward than normal out there)