Can we please Buff Taliyah?

Sinister Clone·Nov 17, 2016·26 votes·4,198 views

Maybe its just me but being a level 7 Taliyah pre the nerf I loved playing her and could win games more than easy in my elo. She was fun for climbing etc but ever since the damage reductions and the no more minion damage i find laning and well almost all of her strong suits gone. Like yea she can roam early like she supposed to but i dont do any damage in the process. Early game hitting the enemy with a w e q was deadly and lane punishing and now it just tickles. EVEN MORE SO now with the assasin update even with her mine field fizz,rengar,talon still destroy considering you cant punish them and get ahead as before. I just find her to be nearly unplayable now :

71 Comments

AstôlfoNov 17, 201612 votes

Better yet, could we just revert her to pre-6.14? Which solves every single fucking problem?

GULAG 4 UNov 17, 20161 votes

How exactly?

AstôlfoNov 17, 201619 votes

Every single change from 6.14 completely ruined her.

Changing W to vector cast was retarded and lowered skill floor from needing to learn it to brain-dead easy. Removing W lockout meant W-E was now possible instead of E-W, which was far harder to land on an intelligent opponent and took far more skill, practice, knowledge, etc etc. Adding bonus Q damage was stupid and unnecessary. These changes made her far more easier as well as able to do far more things than she originally could accomplish.

As a result, they completely fucking gutted her damage, especially on her E, because of the W-E possibility now. E-W used to be able to deal like half health or more in early. And now it's fucking useless trash.

Riot listened to dumbasses who barely played Taliyah, if at all, for advice on the changes, over people who actually played her a shitton since release.

GULAG 4 UNov 17, 20163 votes

Okay, thank you. I really didn't know why since I've never really gotten to play taliyah and all I've ever done against her was to stomp her ass.

AstôlfoNov 17, 20166 votes

People didn't want to have to learn the casting mechanism of the old W. And they didn't like not being able to W-E which even a braindead monkey could do, instead of actually having to spend time and effort to learn how to do her E-W and actually land it (due to how blatantly obvious it was as well as the delays on both).

So Riot listened to them instead of the people with experience on her who said she was fine. And added all sorts of random unnecessary shit to make her generalist instead of specialist. And made playing her braindead easy. So as a result, they had to gut her damage. And now she's trash, thanks to that.

GULAG 4 UNov 17, 20163 votes

TLDR: revert button pls

Comrad BlackNov 17, 201611 votes

I'm glad I'm not the only one who hates the vector cast. It somehow is both easier and feels worse. I had no trouble landing/using the old casting system. I miss skilled Taliyah plays being rewarded with chunking people for 50% of their hp, the nerfs to allow her to be easier also left her feeling super weak.

The Q buff was actually what made me stop playing her, just because I knew it'd trigger an avalanche of nerfs leading to unplayability/heartbreak. I'm a bit sad I was right.

Personally, I'd basically want a reversion to like 6.10. Then I'd just want them to make standing on worked ground more of an active choice then a "You're 50% weaker on this, because fuck you". Like keep the speed buff, but make the Q refund way more forgiving - still only throws out one rock, but refunds the majority of the mana and CDR, so it's actually advantageous if you're in a fight where changing the direction of the Q is useful - maybe also/alternately add like a phage movespeed passive when triggering Q on worked ground, to accentuate her kitting.

That said, they're probably doing something to Ryali's in 6.24, so it's unlikely we'll get the old Taliyah back completely. Hopefully they remember she's a core user and throw her a bone.

inplaneNov 18, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Comrad Black,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tQ1c7Twy,comment-id=0002000000000002,timestamp=2016-11-17T23:59:53.675+0000)

I'm glad I'm not the only one who hates the vector cast. It somehow is both easier and feels worse. I had no trouble landing/using the old casting system. I miss skilled Taliyah plays being rewarded with chunking people for 50% of their hp, the nerfs to allow her to be easier also left her feeling super weak.

The Q buff was actually what made me stop playing her, just because I knew it'd trigger an avalanche of nerfs leading to unplayability/heartbreak. I'm a bit sad I was right.

Personally, I'd basically want a reversion to like 6.10. Then I'd just want them to make standing on worked ground more of an active choice then a "You're 50% weaker on this, because fuck you". Like keep the speed buff, but make the Q refund way more forgiving - still only throws out one rock, but refunds the majority of the mana and CDR, so it's actually advantageous if you're in a fight where changing the direction of the Q is useful - maybe also/alternately add like a phage movespeed passive when triggering Q on worked ground, to accentuate her kitting.

That said, they're probably doing something to Ryali's in 6.24, so it's unlikely we'll get the old Taliyah back completely. Hopefully they remember she's a core user and throw her a bone.

They were originally planning to reduce her Q CD by 50% when used on Worked Ground. I can get why it was thrown out the window, but it's kind of saddening that a buff like that couldn't even pass.

EcchiOtakuTMNov 18, 20162 votes

Aside from vector, I agree.

Far too clunky with it.

HazyCloud7Nov 18, 20163 votes

I was in favor of vector casting instead when her kit was first revealed, but after all of the changes that came along with it when they finally changed it, I realized it made her a lot harder to balance.

Plus side is that Daniel Z Klein actively listens and responds to feedback, so perhaps those changes will end up being reverted.

BoulderoxNov 18, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Every single change from 6.14 completely ruined her.

Changing W to vector cast was retarded and lowered skill floor from needing to learn it to brain-dead easy. Removing W lockout meant W-E was now possible instead of E-W, which was far harder to land on an intelligent opponent and took far more skill, practice, knowledge, etc etc. Adding bonus Q damage was stupid and unnecessary. These changes made her far more easier as well as able to do far more things than she originally could accomplish.

As a result, they completely fucking gutted her damage, especially on her E, because of the W-E possibility now. E-W used to be able to deal like half health or more in early. And now it's fucking useless trash.

Riot listened to dumbasses who barely played Taliyah, if at all, for advice on the changes, over people who actually played her a shitton since release.

Don't forget how riot hotfixed her E when people were maxing E first, and they immediately hashed that, then continue to nerf her E and nerf her q minion, but in the end choose to front load it all into her Q, 3 sec max cd, ffs that is silly item 3116 , gl escaping... but her W is crap alone, and passive and ult are useless in lane, and she can't do what RIOT CREATED HER FOR and i quote:

If she's winning trades and dodging ganks, Taliyah excels at pushing waves into towers with her area of effect attacks. Once she's pushed her wave, her passive lets her bust out her rock-board and surf over to a friendly lane with tremor-inducing speed. She'll cruise alongside the map's walls, constantly gaining movement speed before blasting into a buddy's lane.

huh, funny how that is not allowed now

Sinister CloneNov 17, 20163 votes

Either a revert or some kind of damage buff. Her combo feels harder to hit(or its to easy to dodge) and she doesnt feel rewarding. its like picking shaco, you get flamed before match begins item 3070 item 3649

GULAG 4 UNov 17, 20163 votes

Poeple flame other people for picking a champion that isn't urgot or aatrox now?

MooooooooreDakkaNov 17, 20163 votes

Dang, you beat me to it.

DoseqisNov 18, 20163 votes

She doesn't have problems though, she has a 50% winrate which is right on the target?

AstôlfoNov 18, 20163 votes

Her identity and abilities are all trashed now. That is irrelevant.

Leo1024Nov 17, 20167 votes

Taliyah got gutted, straight up, she has a weird kit which made her fun, and a no damage ult to compensate for the waveclear, but now they took her wave clear away so, where's the upside to her? nothing, she doesn't do great in lane, waveclear is shit now, and she can't roam very well either

i find it super ironic that i can roam more with Ryze or Ekko while Taliyah , literally made to roam, does it the worst

it's so sad to see such a new champion get gutted this early on in their development as a champion

TheWoollyMammothNov 18, 20166 votes

So I guess I'm the only one who thinks her damage is obscene? She sh!ts damage early game if you know how to apply the combo. Damn near always get a kill level 2-3. Snowball into obscenity till really late game, when I tend to fall of like a rock. (edit* Getting focused by everyone because of what you did to them early tends to make that happen)

Try building luden's--->sorc/swifty boots---->deathcap--->morello/voidstaff. Conserve mana, wait for the right moment, and then go kill someone, or 3. Abuse her out of combat move speed. You only ever stay in lane long enough to kill or clear. All your lanes pushed? Go bother the fuck out of the enemy jungler. Take a few of their creeps. Shoot a full length Q so far up their ass they spit granite for the next 30 secounds. You have a kit made to grant you stupid map pressure. Abuse it.

Edit** Thunderlord's and flash,Ignite. Leave that ghost crap behind for vic and cass. You dont need to ghost out if you kill them first.

GayFluffyUnicornNov 18, 20163 votes

From what i've seen ,i only played against talijah twice and both were clearly master or challenger smurfs considering they got to diamond with 60-70% winrate on average in a few 50 games, they all rushed rylais making it impossible for your to escape once you got hit by one Q.

TheWoollyMammothNov 18, 20161 votes

I am not going to pretend I'm a god Tali. I'm sure as hell not the best. But I hate rylais on her. Mostly because I prefer to abuse the move speed passive and in worked ground. Kite for DAYS! Also, they cant dodge if you can move faster then them and predict movement.

Alot of people are saying she has no ability to kill before being killed. I figured that they may have more success if they used my pref'd build. Hell, OP builds seraphs for some stupid reason, WHILE running barrier. You cant survive everything and want to kill everything at the same time. Thats called being broken... or kennen, depends on what you prefer to say really.

GayFluffyUnicornNov 23, 20161 votes

Hmm but isn't it kinda the same? If you slow or outrun them with higher ms is practically the same, isn't it? Okay seraphs even for me seems bullshit tbh xD (never ever played talijah except one aram game q.q). Haha kennen, yeah xD I can't say much about summoner choice. In nearly every game i pick exhaust as top or midlaner and many players flame me for it but it is just such a broken spell for duels. I bet it would be nice on talijah as well epecially during laning phase. But why not rush morello into ludens? Doesn't she have huge mana problems?

TheWoollyMammothNov 24, 20161 votes

Nah, slow helps your team more. move speed is better for constant roaming. pick offs. While the slow will help you in teamfights. the map pressure you can exert with more movespeed and your passive becomes unparalleled after level 6.

Exhaust can be done, but when you consider the cd's on her q I prefer to have that extra pocket damage form ignite.

Taliyah in terms of damage and clear gets crippled by her passive. The more you spam the less damage you can do at any given moment. So until later on you dont want to spam very much. It can get you killed. Conserve q's, use aa's to help clear. Q is for champs and casters not melee minions. when you get a chance or level 6, play like an assassin. clear waves. leave. The bonus ms from ludens and boots will be worth far more at this point of the game then any rylais slow. You will need to be carefull where you step, cause you are squishy as hell. But the E scaling slow will provide plenty enough slow to hit a full q combo. plus a w sending them back into the pit. When you do return to lane, your passive worked ground will be up for far shorter, giving you an easy waveclear soon enough.

I'm not saying forgo the morello (or in extremely bad cases RoA) but she scales EXTREMELY hard with ludens first. Ludens into D-cap (with Thunderlords) Will have you killing just about everything. FAST.

DoseqisNov 18, 20166 votes

http://champion.gg/champion/Taliyah

Has the ideal winrate right on the dot???? why would you buff a perfectly balanced champion

Chembaron YamadaNov 18, 20166 votes

I don't get it either. She seems pretty balanced to me. She even is actually kinda hard to play, so her winrate shouldn't go too much above 50% in my opinion.

GayFluffyUnicornNov 18, 20162 votes

That's it. She isn't freelo anymore, meaning press Q to shove the enemy under his turret at level one and oneshot him at level 3 with EW/WE however+ignite and go roaming. She now needs actually skill to playand that's why they ask for buffs. If you look at her mains sitting on a whopping 66%winrate which lasts for several patches now she is extremely strong in the right hands and worth maining.

WoonStruckNov 18, 20162 votes

Watch out, Nep2une's 'smurf accounts' (lol he's B5 with 30% win rate) are downvoting us for speaking the truth. Haha.

All of his posts are upvoted a minimum of 3 times even if what he says is blatantly incorrect (like with A.Sol; also posts disproving him all have -3), while ours are downvoted a minimum of 3, when these all happened during extremely inactive hours in NA. Nep2une's the only one on the boards that cares that much about this much about Taliyah and obsesses so much about specific threads lol.

Can almost guarantee I'm right, as I see this happen in every thread he's in that he commits to.

In addition, poll and upvotes/downvotes on main post are going more and more out-of-favor (total upvotes hasn't gone up at all) in regards to the OP, meaning new people looking at the thread would be more likely to agree with us, as opposed to disagree.

AstôlfoNov 18, 20162 votes

Lemme have some of that tinfoil too? And for "extremely inactive hours in NA, people are posting quite a lot. Maybe you should pull your head out, it might help you see better.

SoundChaosDebugNov 17, 20165 votes

I tried to play taliyah mid the other day and I was getting wrecked by an AP malphite who only had to push R to out play me.

SpecterVonBarenNov 18, 20164 votes

You say this as if this wouldn't happen to a lot of mid lane mages.

bad arcade kittyNov 17, 20165 votes

from your description looks she was broken though

Leo1024Nov 17, 20166 votes

kinda busted yeah but AurelionSol was a complete fucking monster on release, he was nerfed too but not to the ground, Taliyah is unplayable at this point while is still super strong, seeing a 67% win rate and 42% pick ban rate at worlds

AstôlfoNov 17, 20163 votes

Aurelion got gutted too, it's just Worlds plays on patches several patches behind.

bad arcade kittyNov 17, 20164 votes

{quoted}

kinda busted yeah but was a complete fucking monster on release, he was nerfed too but not to the ground, is unplayable at this point while is still super strong, seeing a 67% win rate and 42% pick ban rate at worlds

the worlds was played on 6.18 patch though

also both a. sol and taliyah have a winrate increase this patch

Leo1024Nov 17, 20165 votes

an increased winrate doesn't mean they're fixed, fizz was at a 49% winrate and he was buffed significantly but taliyah just got health and 20 seconds off her worked ground, does nothing to compensate for her nerfed E damage which was fine after 6.14 and her Q no longer doing extra damage to minions

HupsisNov 17, 20165 votes

I think she's in a relatively good spot.

Only thing I'd change on her is her R leveling. Instead of having 3 ranks I think it should have 2 much like Ryze's ult does. The one extra skillpoint should go to Q and it should be adjusted accordingly. I think the wall range should be changed from 3000 / 4500 / 6000 units to 3000/ 5000 units.

I just think utility ultimates should never have 3 ranks. The skillpoint would be much better spent on something else since the rank 3 upgrade is rarely necessary.

This goes also for champions such as Bard Kalista RekSai TahmKench

However Riot is all about increasing clarity. Having multiple champions who have an extra point in their Q would be confusing... but then again it rises the question about Ryze being an exception.

AuraCreedNov 18, 20165 votes

Do my eyes deceive me? Do I see a Taliyah post asking for buffs? Upvote good sir!

TBH W Vector cast is cancer and should be reversed.

CalabokNov 18, 20165 votes

Thalya is fine. She's just not freelo anymore, sorry.

SaiannaNov 18, 20165 votes

As long as it won't be brain-dead Q buff.

Her Q is strong enough imo.

Sinister CloneNov 17, 20164 votes

Great to see people agreeing with me. Its just I remember a time when I could maybe hit a full combo, clear wave and made a decent roam but now i get one shot in lane by all mids regardless or res :p Im only of gold elo but I still feel She could use even the smallest buff. I went from a really good win rate and feeling confident every match to.. A feeling of "do I wanna have fun by playing Taliyah? but am I ready to lose"? item 3070

TheHappyReaperzNov 18, 20164 votes

"I could win games more than easy in my elo" Hence why she won't be buffed.

inplaneNov 18, 20164 votes

For people saying her winrate proves that she's balanced, I'm sorry but it doesn't prove anything as of right now.

Remember. The Assassins just got reworked. Two of the imfamous Blink Assassins Katarina and Talon were recently reworked. They have the lowest winrates in the game. The two Assassins who hard counter Taliyah have the lowest winrates. Add that with how dedicated Taliyah mains are the only ones playing her with that 0.88 Playrate.

I think most of you can put two and two together and see why champion.gg isn't very accurate right now. Mind you Flex Queue is still a thing.

GayFluffyUnicornNov 18, 20164 votes

Yep and those mains do fine with a 66% winrate. Holy shit i imagine Zed mains having this winrate.

DracocrashNov 18, 20164 votes

I wish they would just focus on balancing current dead champions, rather than releasing one every day lmao.

Sinister CloneNov 17, 20163 votes

Bringing back and kind of damage or even scaling buffs Its just I feel weaker than almost every mid

Sinister CloneNov 17, 20163 votes

Lol yea :P its really lame to que up for a ranked and have people flame for simply you playing your comfort pick. Despite everything shes my favorite champion in which I miss being usefull

inplaneNov 17, 20163 votes

Taliyah mains have been talking about giving her E a Poppy W effect. That way it can punish gapclosers without completely exploding them. Some have suggested a Cassiopeia W Grounded effect for Taliyah 's E, but it's not a very good idea for many reasons.

And of course, Riot Zenon is working on that pathetic W with the QoL change. Honestly, it cannot come any faster. It's the least Taliyah can get after 6.14.

AlbuquerqueNov 18, 20163 votes

I love Taliyah, but I feel like the nerfs to her E damage were unnecessary. It's difficult to land against good players, and she pretty much only has 2 damaging spells,being her Q and E. W's damage is negligible and is only used for the E knock-through damage.

With that said, I feel like she's really close to being in a perfect spot power wise, but she just needs a couple tiny buffs.

Increase the damage of her E back to pre-nerf values
Make her Q deal 25% bonus damage to minions. It's not as oppressively high as it used to be when it was 50%, so she won't be able to clear a full wave with a single cast, and it's a much needed buff because right now it takes about 3 full casts of Q to clear a minion wave throughout most of the laning phase, and that's even when it's used on new ground, not Worked Ground.

I remember reading on Reddit somewhere a week or two ago that the balance team was "looking into" certain buffs/changes they could make to her but I haven't heard anything since.

BoulderoxNov 18, 20163 votes

next patch is what i heard, and i feel ya bud

SpecterVonBarenNov 18, 20163 votes

Simple number changes won't be enough, they need to change something about her kit or else she'll just keep fluctuating between oppressive and mediocre. Her kit is just poorly designed with a split between wanting to be a zone control mage and a roaming ganker.