Dorans v Cull, Patch 6.2

Parceval·Feb 5, 2016·5 votes·2,057 views

After having some time to test it out, I'm curious what the community thinks?

The delayed gold advantage of ~2 kills seems significant. Though the differential of 80 health, 1 damage is not small.

39 Comments

Best KhaZix VoidFeb 5, 20164 votes

still awful still needs to just be admitted as a horrible mistake and removed from the game.

khorneyFeb 5, 20163 votes

why is it awful

DREADN0UGHTFeb 6, 20161 votes

Dlwhy not just improve it?

Very Hard EngageFeb 5, 20162 votes

i was building it on kog maw only, as "on hit" health seemed good for him :)

now its more of uh, "farm lane, ill pick up cull, enemy only wants to trade? pick up dorans blade"

so namely, enemy is draven, cait, lucian, etc, dblade, im up against ezreal, kog, twitch, vayne, ill grab cull.

SH AzykanFeb 5, 20161 votes

I'd probably still go D.Blade vs twitch. If he sees you come into lane with a Cull, he is very likely to play more aggressively since he can snowball hard if he gets an early lead. If you start cull he can see that as a chance to push his extra early stat advantage on you.

ParcevalFeb 5, 20162 votes

Why would this post be downvoted? It's 100% constructive. This community confuses me.

Dominick DestineFeb 6, 20162 votes

I'm not an ADC player but I would love it if my ADC took Cull in farm lanes.

(Ex: Ashe + Janna vs. Ezreal + Soraka )

Meep ManFeb 6, 20162 votes

I'd say Cull still needs a small buff. I would say decrease it's cost by 50 and it's a good pick. Make it like Dark Seal and let me pick some potions with it.

RebonackFeb 6, 20162 votes

I would personally like to see the whole gold farming part of Cull get the axe. Buff its stats and making it the sustain-focused AD starting item. Get rid of the lifesteal on DBlade and improve its HP a bit.

So the choice would come down to 'Do I want sustain to fight off poke or do I want HP to survive an all-in?'

Wolfram OxfordFeb 5, 20161 votes

I will grab cull on people who need one core item, like Vayne, Ezreal, Kalista, but only if I am comfortable with the lane. If I am against Sona MF I might just go with D blade instead. Although I do like the gold and sustain it offers usually you will end up selling it early and after that you won't benefit from it's stats while with D blade you can hold onto it during mid game and still benefit from the AD and lifesteal. So I am thinking that maybe riot should increase the amount of CS you need to cash in at just so the person can benefit from Cull a bit longer, and then get more gold. I am thinking around 125 CS.

ParcevalFeb 5, 20161 votes

That's a good idea, actually. Delayed the gold reward would help it to remain a little more viable. Also, honestly, I think it needs to be a bit more effective in trades. Like +5 health per hit. Something to let it sustain well in the early-mid before dorans outpaces. Because Dorans is strong until 4th or 5th item as a slot filling value.

SH AzykanFeb 5, 20161 votes

extra hp on hit definitely needs to be looked at for Cull. Because it SHOULD be for extra early sustain to survive the early game. But right now there is very little reason to take it over dorans or even corrupting potion.

khorneyFeb 5, 20161 votes

cull is better then dorans but keep thinking its not

SH AzykanFeb 5, 20161 votes

k, I'll keep going all in on lanes that start cull, denying them cs, and generally just winning and snowballing my lane because I am starting with a stat advantage.

There is a reason nobody is actually using cull as their highest winning or even most used starts on champion.gg.

Champions like Gangplank and Vayne should be heavily drawn to it, but it is terrible even on them.

khorneyFeb 6, 20161 votes

Why would they use it.... It's meant for A can you last hit and B can you Clear fast. As varus I use cull because A I can last hit and B I kill cs fast off his q

SH AzykanFeb 6, 20161 votes

you dont clear as fast with cull...it has less AD you dont last hit as well with cull...it has less AD

Yes you can still do both, it isn't that limiting. I would recommend avoiding using it on Varus on any lane that can engage on you or your support, or if you are facing a lane that Varus can bully (he bullies several adc's pretty hard actually)

GP wants to reach 2-3 items ASAP, the extra gold gen from Cull should theoretically make that faster. It doesn't though because he just gets steam rolled when taking it. Vayne doesnt get much extra AD for a while, so D.Blade doesnt scale as well on her AND she wants to hit her item spikes asap

khorneyFeb 6, 20161 votes

you really are comparing 2 ad making all the difference ..... and varus q deletes whole waves cs with 1 q so how is that bad

delonixFeb 6, 20161 votes

Not a huge deal, but Kog'maw's highest win rate start on champion.gg is actually Cull. I guess if you think that "there is a reason nobody is actually using cull..." then it follows that there's a reason people are using Cull. At least on Kog'maw, it seems to be a better start than Doran's Blade.

SH AzykanFeb 6, 20161 votes

actually he kinda makes sense, since it would work with his w extremely well, and he has to play insanely safe to start. I went through most champs I figured would like Cull before posting that but must have missed him. It is only 220 games though for him, so it might just be for a completely ideal lane ( KogMaw + Janna vs Ezreal + Soraka type of lane)

Sire HippingtonFeb 6, 20161 votes

no one forces you to sell it after reaching stacks. At that point, it's basically free 7 ad, as it gives the entire cost back without even selling it.

Wolfram OxfordFeb 6, 20161 votes

You sell it for roughly 200 gold, thats a lot.

khorneyFeb 5, 20161 votes

cull is better by far do the math yourself , the 3 % lifesteal is nothing until you have well over 100 ad..... becuase culls flat heal of 4 is higher then dorans blades heal not to mention its the most gold effieicient item in the game getting all your starting gold back is op

SH AzykanFeb 6, 20162 votes

80 flat hp on d.blade, the 3% lifesteal scales with later items/levels (culls does not). Cull puts you at a disadvantage starting in lane, so the enemy can already push an advantage and get ahead.

Cull needs to give more sustain to be worth using, so it can be used against poke lanes or just to keep alive in the early game while playing safe.

khorneyFeb 6, 20161 votes

So far I haven't lost and your point is minute since cull is gold efficient Doran isn't so In turn I'll have all my starting gold back meanwhile you'll lose gold so what's your point I have had 0 issue using cull cull is good for people who can clear fast and if you can't last hit that's not my problem I also use it with the kill a unit get 20 hp back not the lifesteal one

SH AzykanFeb 6, 20162 votes

I can last hit with no runes/masteries/items on zilean...I have 0 issues with farming.

If you are playing with people who don't pressure you for starting sub-optimally, congratz, abuse the shit out of cull. Might as well go for tear > RoA on every AP champion as well since they give the most AP possible late game for an exchange in having no early pressure/damage.

Also the lifesteal one and the 20 hp return every 20 seconds arent even in the same tier so...

khorneyFeb 6, 20161 votes

i know but i liek my mastery that way

SH AzykanFeb 6, 20161 votes

I meant you can take both the lifesteal one and the 20 hp on last hits both.

20 hp one is on the same tier as the one that increases damage you deal and damage dealt to you the lifesteal one is on the same tier as the one that gives AD/AP per level

Dominick DestineFeb 6, 20163 votes

{quoted}

culls flat heal of 4 is higher then dorans

I'm pretty sure Cull's flat heal is 3, not 4.

khorneyFeb 6, 20161 votes

0hh my bad so once you hit over 100 ad Doran passes up culls heal

SH AzykanFeb 6, 20163 votes

you are forgetting the 80 flat hp on dorans...which really is significant, especially if you get engaged on. and you know how easy it is to hit 100 ad?

This is why people want the hp on hit to be increased to 5, to give it a leg up in sustaining vs Dorans being better at all-ins

DesideriumFeb 6, 20161 votes

If the hp on hit was increased that high then AP mid laners will start picking it up.

SH AzykanFeb 6, 20161 votes

and forgo a lot of trade potential and mana regen from dorans ring. It would be a trade off, That's what it needs to be. Not just it being straight up worse than the other options in every scenario other than your lane being 100% free farming for both sides

Old Man TeetoFeb 6, 20161 votes

Cull doesn't offer % lifesteal, so it doesn't scale as well meaning you need a lifesteal item sooner.

Cull is close enough to potentially be usable now in some match ups, but so long as the aggressive laners like Lucian, MF, Caitlyn still see play it's not worth it.

However, I'm curious on using it for a lane swap where your ADC will be at no risk, it's only 1 AD lost for pushing, and over half of the CS you need will be gathered before you ever have to match lanes. Of course, then you could've just bought long sword + pots... hmmm

delonixFeb 6, 20161 votes

Assuming a free farm lane, Cull + 1 pot is more efficient now than long sword + 3 pots. Once Cull pops, it has given 450g, which is exactly as much as it cost. On top of this, you can sell it for 180g. Relative to starting with nothing, you will have +130g. If you start with long sword + pots, you are at -150g relative to starting with nothing. A completed Cull puts you nearly 300g ahead of the longsword + 3 pots start.

You're right that Cull doesn't scale well, but the argument against Cull is usually that it puts you at a disadvantage in the early game, where Cull's 3 health on hit is actually stronger than 3% lifesteal. You might want a lifesteal item earlier, but you could also build normally. The difference between 3% lifesteal and 3 health on hit is probably insignificant compared to champion level, items, and champion matchups.

Sire HippingtonFeb 6, 20161 votes

I think cull is in a decent spot right now. i use it either on very passive botlanes, or if i have an easy matchup top, like renekton vs nearly anything. If you don't fear an enemy all-in, caull really is great, it's esentially 7free ad and a bit heal for free in the midgam, and compared to dorans 400g more gold lategame. it's now prettymuch what it should be: high risk, high reward start.

Though i do think that dorans blade isn't the right counterpart, as longsword+3pots is nearly always better than dorans, and unless you have an easy lane also better than cull.

ParcevalFeb 6, 20161 votes

Well, for an adc, dorans scales beautifully into lategame. That 3% is no joke when you're doing 200+ per hit, it adds up a lot of health very quickly. The +3 just doesn't scale at all.

Sire HippingtonFeb 6, 20161 votes

alot of health is relative, you'd need to deal your own hp as damage 33times to fully heal up... Haveing 450g more gold ontop of the 7 ad is quite alot, it's nearly the upgrade from a longsword to a vamp-scepter, which gives 10%. And once you get full gear, dorans does nothing for you while the gold from cull makes you reach fullgear faster.

DeloricVIFeb 6, 20161 votes

I see a lot of people bashing Cull, saying that its gold generation sucks and should be reworked into an alternate doran's item like item 1082

However, why don't they just make the gold farming better? Or, why don't they take the stats away and make it cheaper, maybe buff the gold generation passive slightly to make it more attractive to farming champions. I mean, if it were more attractive to champs that need that sweet farm, it may see more play. Nasus, Veigar, Sion, and Vayne come to mind, but I'm sure there are many other champs that rely more on a safe laning phase with a lot of farm, not an engage-fest with constant trades or poke.

Personally, I've been testing it out on Veigar

You may think I'm mad, but it's an item that I buy when I just focus on farming. If I'm up against a match where the enemy either has no engage, or easy af to dodge skill shots, I grab cull and play so super passive, they can't even kill me with a gank. I just farm and get the free 300 gold a bit after 10 minutes, as long as I don't get bullied or pushed under tower too much (darn turrets taking potshots at my minions...). It's Ok, I guess. The passive gold is a joke when you're stacking this item. It'll take a while for it to stack up to a noticeable amount.

In theory, you could use this for a quick injection of gold, especially if you're behind and just defending... but a that point you don't stack it nearly fast enough. It's clearly supposed to be a starting item. I feel like it's misguided and suffers from the problems you have with some champions who are overloaded. If this thing were buffed to where the stats were as good as a doran's item plus the free 1 kill's worth of gold, no one would buy anything else before going to lane except under very fringe cases. But now, it's weak af because it does too much. Gives AD, gives life on hit, gives gold when you cs, and then a lump sum of 300 after you get 100 cs. That's a kill, just for getting cs, which is what you're supposed to be doing anyway.

I really want to like this item, but it's a hard sell.

Twitch ChatFeb 6, 20161 votes

it cant replace doran's as a starter item but dorans+cull early game is pretty good