If ranged champs have a better laning phase

ACENOX·Oct 15, 2016·56 votes·2,550 views

can they have a worse teamfight? thanks

55 Comments

LadracOct 15, 201617 votes

No more Lissandra nerfs pls

Irelia BotOct 15, 201618 votes

They were only going to remove her passive

Not like anyone would notice /s

Meep ManOct 15, 20166 votes

I think it's more can they be easier to kill

Bladerunner7777Oct 15, 20162 votes

they are easy

Quinn top vs Malphite top

Quinn wins lane and malphite can't do anything.

Doesn't matter

If Quinn doesn't end fast enough then Malphite will win by default because he is infinitely more useful to his team.

Gnar is super squishy in mini form and his engage is extremely telegraphed. The only problem with him is item 3022 imo

Kennen is pretty annoying. However if you can manage to summoner 3 him in a teamfight then he becomes way less effective. This relies on your support not being a retard which is why a lot of people still complain about Kennen (in Solo Q). Do note that Solo Q Kennen =/= LCS Kennen so you can't really use that as an argument because they're almost 2 different games.

rtbf225618241Oct 15, 20163 votes

And Nasus? Garen? Darius? Renekton? Mundo? Illaoi? Kled? Trynda? Maokai? They have a few tools but not much against basic attacks. You can't go all-in early.

Darius is sort-of struggling less but not against ranged enemies that don't overstep the Q/E range.

Troll for TrumpOct 15, 201613 votes

Darius gets shat on by everything and their mothers that are ranged. He will only win a matchup vs any ranged champ if the player playing the ranged champ is bad.

SlythionOct 15, 20167 votes

As a Darius main...I can honestly say that the only reason I do well in a ranged matchup is due to playing against bed players

There is absolutely no reason for a ranged champion to lost to Darius unless you get camped by the jungler

Bladerunner7777Oct 15, 20162 votes

I have played Gnar item 3071 item 3009 item 3022 against Darius before

I feel evil

Troll for TrumpOct 16, 20161 votes

The exception is teemo.

It's kinda sad to say Teemo has been outclassed in this meta. He will have a lead for a bit early, but as soon as Darius hits 6, Teemo's fked.

Only Play DariusOct 16, 20163 votes

Love when I somehow crush a Gnar in lane as Darius and they complain that my champion is "broken" and "one of Gnar's hardest counters"

Phoenix Kotori Oct 15, 20162 votes

Ranged counters juggernauts, Renekton & Mundo have better teamfights cause they're such good damage soaks and Maokai is anti-mage tank, so yeah he's weaker vs auto attackers additionally he's a good team fighter.

Kled has ult to team fight better and he can deal with ranged ok if he plays well, while Trynda just needs a rework.

rtbf225618241Oct 15, 201610 votes

Ranged counters everyone that's not ranged,

Ftfy.

Mundo has his ultimate but with Executioner's, that won't be as useful honestly. Renekton either bursts his opponent or misses it cuz they dodged it and then gets severely punished.

Kled's ult is honestly the only thing that makes him good. The rest is pointless in most cases given the amount of mobility in the game right now so his Q will snap a lot.

TeCoolMageOct 16, 20164 votes

Not really, fiora, zed, Talon and Yasuo are meant to counter ranged champions

Hinagiku33Oct 16, 20162 votes

I mean Zed and Yasuo sure, no problem.

Talon...eh, maybe when he had his Silence. He doesn't really counter ranged champs since he's melee and uses mana, so he can't just spam his W for poke and wave-clear and can't poke with his auto-attacks in between using his W. He's got a gap closer, but just having a gap closer doesn't mean you "counter" ranged champs in lane phase.

Fiora is...weird. She has her W to block nukes and CC but it's on a ~30 sec cooldown so it does nothing to protect her from constant ranged poke. She has her Q to jump in and proc her Vitals, but the range is so short that she can't really get through a creep wave so she ends up taking tons of poke and minion aggro damage if she even tries to trade against a ranged champ. Combined with a complete lack of wave-clear and ranged poke in her kit making her bad at last-hitting under tower while also having no way to farm safely if a ranged opponent stalls the wave.

Ranged top laners just make me not want to ever play Fiora, which kinda just kills my desire to play a lot of the time :(

rtbf225618241Oct 16, 20162 votes

Fiora lacks enough damage and has one Q to close the gap with which is really easy to deny.

Yasuo, Talon and Zed are normally in the Top lane? What? I haven't seen a Zed or Talon in top lane for ages.

TeCoolMageOct 17, 20161 votes

Zed can go top lane to counter pick certain ranged champs and I thought your 'fix' applied to ranged champions in general since there aren't even that many ranged non ADC top laners in the first place

rtbf225618241Oct 17, 20161 votes

"Can" is the word that doesn't apply here. You're most likely a team without a tank or a jungler without damage cuz they have to make mostly tank items because of you. Zed is not a top laner. Countering means nothing if your opponent knows how to play from behind. This is a low elo mentality.

I could give you 10 different melee top laners if i cared to look them all up.

TeCoolMageOct 18, 20161 votes

Countering means a lot, playing from behind is a minimum requirement to be good at the game, not a reason to ignore being countered. A gnar with 2k gold will always be less useful than a gnar with 3k gold, but knowing how to play with 2k gold while everyone else is above that is a requirement to function in the team, not a sudden 'get out of jail free' card that makes you as useful as a fed gnar. It's not a low elo mentality, a low elo mentality is that picks don't matter at all.

I also never asked for you to list melee top laners.

rtbf225618241Oct 18, 20161 votes

Countering means nothing if you're above Gold. People don't lose in 20 mins often. This isn't S5s Pre-season.

playing from behind is a minimum requirement to be good at the game,

How the hell do you consider yourself to be a valid source to make such a ridiculous claim when you've never even touched Ranked/Competitive play? Playing from behind is something you learn in Mid/High-Gold.

Playing from behind is crucial to not losing the game just cuz you were countered. If playing from behind wasn't possible, League would be a mixup of Rock,Scissors,Paper and nothing would be possible to be played around.

More useful? How in the hell are Top laners useful to their team? If the Top laner leaves to gank or whatever, the opponent can fast farm and push. If they TP same thing, especially worth if the TP gets cancelled. Top laners normally fight against each other or farm and push their advantages but they are usually at equal footing depending on the matchup. Pantheon for example is relentlessly pressuring for turret dives and such while Nasus just wants to stack.

Picks matter to the team, not to you. You may go 0/10 as Malphite, you'll still be 20x more useful to your team than that Top Zed.

If you'd say that superior champions in lanes win games (which they do in low elo) then everyone would pick Ziggs, Xerath, Taliyah, Brand, Ezreal and so on just to stay out of range and deal free damage but that's not how League works because getting kills doesn't matter if you can be wiped out by a superior composition. Your kills won't help you when you are stunned or suppressed or ignited at 100 hp or don't scale properly at appropriate times and simply get outdamaged before your power spikes.

In the late game, there are no "fed" players since everyone is fully built and on equal ground.

since there aren't even that many ranged non ADC top laners in the first place

That's why i said it and i'm not going to list them anyway because it would take too much of my time.

TeCoolMageOct 19, 20161 votes

Countering means nothing if you're above Gold. People don't lose in 20 mins often. This isn't S5s Pre-season.

And games don't last 60 minutes often either, so being fed almost always matters to a large amount. In fact, most 45+ minute games are bronze because no one knows when to push to inhib.

ranged

but

non ADC top laners

not

non ranged non adc top laners

Complete opposite.

Picks matter to everyone, including you. If there's a braum support, corki adc, syndra mid and nautilus jg, zed beats most tank picks, and countering still matters.

How the hell do you consider yourself to be a valid source to make such a ridiculous claim when you've never even touched Ranked/Competitive play? Playing from behind is something you learn in Mid/High-Gold.

Because I can play from behind? Stop pretending there are actual barriers like rune slot unlocks or mastery points based on rank. I can know how to ward, build defensively, stay back, and peel without being gold or even playing ranked.

Playing from behind is crucial to not losing the game just cuz you were countered.

no, playing from behind is required to play the game at all as there are almost no games where everyone on your team is fed and you aren't behind in gold compared to anyone on their team. This is even assuming you're top and not jg or support.

If you'd say that superior champions in lanes win games (which they do in low elo) then everyone would pick Ziggs, Xerath, Taliyah, Brand, Ezreal and so on just to stay out of range and deal free damage but that's not how League works because getting kills doesn't matter if you can be wiped out by a superior composition. Your kills won't help you when you are stunned or suppressed or ignited at 100 hp or don't scale properly at appropriate times and simply get outdamaged before your power spikes.

No, superior champions in lanes don't win games, but they make it a hell of a lot easier, stop pretending being countered does absolutely nothing to the team and playing behind is as good as playing from ahead, otherwise in pro play there'd be 20 - 0 in 5 minutes and the team with 0 kills doesn't care as they can 'play from behind' and still have a good chance of winning. If someone picks a ranged champion that counters top lane tanks, tell the jungler to take a god damn top lane tank instead of saying "oh being 0/10 doesn't matter, it's not like their 10/0 top laner can do anything with those kills after shoving and roaming"

In the late game, there are no "fed" players since everyone is fully built and on equal ground.

The game doesn't revolve around late game. It revolves around who gets to the nexus and destroys it first. If I pick a counter, I end the game before it reaches late.

More useful? How in the hell are Top laners useful to their team? If the Top laner leaves to gank or whatever, the opponent can fast farm and push. If they TP same thing, especially worth if the TP gets cancelled. Top laners normally fight against each other or farm and push their advantages but they are usually at equal footing depending on the matchup. Pantheon for example is relentlessly pressuring for turret dives and such while Nasus just wants to stack.

Top laner leaves to gank, and gets a kill. Even if the opponent pushes, it's still a kill. And what's the point of even pushing advantages if I can just 'play from behind' and be as useful? Why should I ever go pantheon when I can go for a late game champion if counterpicking doesn't matter?

And implying anyone, even the island top laners, aren't useful to their team, is the last thing any good player would say. Everyone is useful, even from behind as everyone gets a game where they're behind at some point, but a fed player is almost always going to be more useful.

Also, what exactly is the point of even complaining about ranged countering non ranged if counters don't matter at all?

rtbf225618241Oct 19, 20161 votes

most 45+ minute games are bronze

I didn't know Diamond is Bronze then. Or Platinum in S5. Or Gold in S4. Cuz 45 minute games happen everywhere.

Also, i didn't know LCS was Bronze. Or that half the teams at Worlds are boosted Bronze.

What? Are you even listening to yourself? Corki can jump and turn around, Syndra has a stun and ult, most likely Zhonya's. Braum has ult Exhaust and passive, Nautilus NEEDS TO BASIC to stun Zed and can follow up with a slow, a knockup slow and a disable grab.

Are you talking about League or Overwatch? Cuz cc matters a lot more here.

Yea you can know that without straining whatever skill you have because you are playing in Silver rank by default as an Unranked player. I'm not surprised.

I was going to say you may aswell play only Normals but you already are.

And i didn't imply on having things locked from rank. Already shows your ignorance, because your account is lvl 30 - therefore everything is unlocked.

What is this even supposted to mean? That there are no games where your team is behind and is also fed? Do you know what fed means? Kills don't make up for farm lost sometimes but it KILLS the enemy, removing them from the game for 20 seconds on average. Good luck farming while you're dead!

Being countered only works when the enemy team or your team can't handle it. The lane may push but you can rotate and deny that shit. I already said that mid to late game compositions outweight early game advantages. Noone gives a shit if you lost your first 2 turrets in Top lane, that 700 stack Nasus WILL do something to make up for the losses.

You're assuming that every counter will get kills. They will not, they'll harass and they have their weaknesses. You can easily farm under your turret and in LCS matched, people don't shove lanes cuz the jungler will rape them if they do that. They're organized pro teams, not SoloQ players or better yet, your Normals players where noone takes the game seriously.

Wtf are you even talking about? You can't baserace it, the enemy team can just turtle out the game and wait for late by playing it safe until they have more power. You're gonna end the game before 30? Good luck with that!

I knew you'd be like "Oh ganks and gets a kill." this doesn't always happen and you totally ignored the counterpoints i made for that. You're clueless. Top laners aren't assassins so don't expect them to get kills by their mere presence. They usually zone out enemies or assist in kills.

Pantheon is strong through early and Mid game. Everyone knows he's worse in late game if he fucks up his W. That's all there is to him. It's why he is not as popular right now.

If the Top laner leaves to gank

Leaves from where do you think? The Jungle? The Baron pit? Where?

If you would read what i said, i was clearly talking about the laning phase. Outside the laning phase when you're grouping, ofcourse everyone will play a part. That's like saying Supports aren't useless in lane to everyone and you thinking they are. Roaming isn't laning and Soraka's R is 1 thing across all Supports.

NarasimhaOct 16, 20161 votes

Or you know, pick the champs meant to punish ranged. Irelia, Akali, Fiora, etc.

rtbf225618241Oct 16, 20162 votes

Only Irelia is strong enough to kill before being killed. Fiora doesn't have that much damage anymore so she'll get spaced out by keeping a distance regardless.

Trust me, i tried playing Fiora against a Gnar and a Kennen. Nightmare.

NarasimhaOct 16, 20161 votes

Kennen, I can go for, he can be a bitch.

But Gnar I'm surprised at. Mini Gnar is too squishy to take a lot of damage early. If you keep Qing to him, he'll have to run. And your Q is on a much shorter cooldown than his hop. And Mega Gnar's CC is so telegraphed, you should always be dodging or parrying it. It's really an easy win for Fiora.

AhristocatsOct 16, 20161 votes

you're aware that the 6 items that gnar builds makes him tanky as hell? gnar no longer builds shit like item 3153 now it's item 3071 item 3022 item 3143 item 3065 . He has 2 as steroids, his E has a short cooldown in late game, and does 180+6% of his hp into damage, and he has his W to do damage. he doesn't need any offensive item.

NarasimhaOct 16, 20163 votes

Probably quite a good thing then that he doesn't start with those items in the laning phase, isn't it?

AhristocatsOct 17, 20161 votes

are we talking about teamfights or not? cause that's the point of this thread.

rtbf225618241Oct 17, 20161 votes

Gnar's R allows him to just farm with Q and let you push under his turret. Now unless you want to turret dive an imminent Mega Gnar, you're not winning a laning phase with Fiora against Gnar. Not to mention the items Gnar builds which is pure health and damage early on.

WoonStruckOct 15, 20168 votes

A) Nobody was talking about ranged ADCs top

B) Gnar is not super squishy in mini form because he builds all HP/resistance items. He needs the Kled treatment, though not as severe.

C) Having to use a summoner spell to counter a champion shows that they're a problem. A specific summoner spell is not the answer to a champion being too strong. That's just silly. Please never attempt to be on a balance team.

Bladerunner7777Oct 15, 20162 votes

A) Nobody was talking about ranged ADCs top

"if ranged champs have a better laning phase..." k

B) Gnar is not super squishy in mini form because he builds all HP/resistance items.

Talking out of your ass, much?

Straight from the wiki: Mini Gnar has the fewest active abilities of any ranged champion (Hyper.png Hyper and GNAR!.png GNAR! are fully passive effects) and the lowest health at Level 18 (1645)

When you build Sona full tank, she is still going to get blown up by most everything. She simply doesn't have the base stats or kit to function as a tank.

The same goes for Mini-Gnar, he has some of the lowest base stats and his mini kit forces him to kite like an ADC in order to survive. Nothing in his kit is helping him sustain in a fight.

C) Having to use a summoner spell to counter a champion show that they're a problem. A specific summoner spell is not the answer to a champion being too strong. That's just silly. Please never attempt to be on a balance team.

This is only proves your ineptitude

You're the type of player that complains about Olaf Zed MasterYi yet is adamant on taking summoner 6 over summoner 3 . Or complains about Soraka DrMundo Swain and would still take instead of summoner 14 .

Please never attempt to sound like you know what you're talking about

WoonStruckOct 15, 20168 votes

"if ranged champs have a better laning phase..." k

Thread is referring to AoE utility ranged champs. You think somehow ADCs are more relevant than them. k

Talking out of your ass, much?

Straight from the wiki: Mini Gnar has the fewest active abilities of any ranged champion (Hyper.png Hyper and GNAR!.png GNAR! are fully passive effects) and the lowest health at Level 18 (1645)

Gnar builds all tanky items. Missing 300 HP at level 18 compared to the average doesn't mean anything. Its essentially invalidated once he starts building HP. GUESS WHAT, HIS FIRST TWO ITEMS ALWAYS HAVE HP! Wow! What a concept! His two best damage-scalers also cover up and surpass his only realistic weakness!

FYI, active abilities don't make someone weak or strong. What each of the 5 'slots' for passive, Q, W, E, and R offer makes them weak/strong. Active/passive is irrelevant.

When you build Sona full tank, she is still going to get blown up by most everything. She simply doesn't have the base stats or kit to function as a tank.

Sona doesn't offer the CC/engage that Gnar does. Sona doesn't scale with item 3022 item 3071 like Gnar does. Sona doesn't have the mobility that Gnar does. Sona doesn't have the free damage or attackspeed that Gnar does. Sona gets completely fucked by mana costs, meaning another stat she can't sacrifice for tank stats. Sona's Q is absolutely worthless without AP investment. Sona's Q, W, and E were all gutted in order to provide AP scaling for their utility, enforcing non-tank builds even more.

Free stats make building tanky better, provided you don't need a specific stat to scale it. Please see every example of free stats/damage ever. Gnar has both.

The same goes for Mini-Gnar, he has some of the lowest base stats and his mini kit forces him to kite like an ADC in order to survive. Nothing in his kit is helping him sustain in a fight.

So having 3k+ HP and a multitude of resistances somehow makes Gnar squishy. Huh...

This is only proves your ineptitude

Actually, you're only proving that about yourself lol

You're the type of player that complains about yet is adamant on taking over .

Actually, in bad AD match-ups that can level 1-3 all-in against Vlad, I sometimes do take summoner 3 over summoner 6

You must be an idiot if you didn't think to look at my match-history before spewing your nonsense.

I've never complained about any of those three. Nice assumptions though. Taking exhaust for an Olaf or Yi. Lol. Your bronze is showing.

Or complains about and would still take instead of .

Never complained about those three either. And you're also an idiot if you think you have to take a specific summoner spell in order to handle those champions. item 3123 item 3165 work perfectly fine. Not that they're usually necessary anyway. They're just helpful. Damage is overloaded this season. Sustain is marginal help at best, and only if the enemy team has poor target prioritization.

Please never attempt to sound like you know what you're talking about

Read above and try to say that again with a straight face.

DengedenOct 15, 20164 votes

That's basically the idea. Only those 2 are ranged champions with a bad range v range laning phase. In exchange they get good engage if they use flash. In the end though, Kennen is squishy and Gnar needs to megaGnar.

The DeckownerOct 17, 20161 votes

Only those 2 are ranged champions with a bad range v range laning phase

Kennen is great in ranged vs ranged match ups(thus used as a counter to gnar and jayce)

DengedenOct 17, 20161 votes

Jayce and Gnar are both range-melee hybrids.

The DeckownerOct 17, 20161 votes

yet both of them mostly rely on ranged form to gain lane dominance.

DengedenOct 17, 20161 votes

But still rely on melee form to push someone out of lane. Which is why Kennen is good against them.

The DeckownerOct 17, 20161 votes

No.

The only reason Kennen is good against them is because he out range them when they are in ranged form.

DengedenOct 17, 20161 votes

Really. Really? It's that he has 50 range over Jayce and 150-50 range over Gnar that makes him win against them?

Not that they can't use half their kits against him without getting poked? Really?

The DeckownerOct 17, 20161 votes

Yes 50~100 range CAN win your the lane, that is the reason why Caitlyn is so broken in pro play right now because she guarantee a winning or at least even lane with her 650 aa range.

You do realize Jayce and Gnar are shapeshifters, meaning they have 6 basic active abilities and a ult that has different effect in different form(or is the form changing ability in Jayce Nidalee and Elise 's case) , meaning they have 7/8 abilities right? half of their kit is literally the whole kit of a normal champion.

DengedenOct 17, 20161 votes

Cait isn't even remotely broken in pro play, don't even try to apply the anti-Cait circlejerk to pro play as well. She can abuse her range like she does because she has a support with her to peel and push. Top lane doesn't. (Try solo lane Cait and see what happens.)

You're really saying that shapeshifters without melee forms would make up an entire champion? Seriously? They're balanced around all their abilities, they can't stay in ranged form all game. Besides, you're contradicting yourself. You acknowledged that their ults transformed them, meaning they only have 3 abilities in their ranged forms. That doesn't "literally the whole kit of a normal champion."

The DeckownerOct 17, 20161 votes

want to play word game with me boy?

DengedenOct 18, 20161 votes

No. But you obviously want to, since you can't win this argument and only responded to the last part of what I said.

The DeckownerOct 18, 20161 votes

Cait isn't even remotely broken in pro play, don't even try to apply the anti-Cait circlejerk to pro play as well. She can abuse her range like she does because she has a support with her to peel and push. Top lane doesn't. (Try solo lane Cait and see what happens.)

ask any high elo player, watch any of the worlds adc match up stream, professional players all agree that this champion is the strongest laning adc, and that she can win all adc match up as long as the support match up is not ranged vs melee with the melee at her side.

You're really saying that shapeshifters without melee forms would make up an entire champion? Seriously? They're balanced around all their abilities, they can't stay in ranged form all game. Besides, you're contradicting yourself. You acknowledged that their ults transformed them, meaning they only have 3 abilities in their ranged forms. That doesn't "literally the whole kit of a normal champion."

You are just playing wih words here. as I said before

You do realize Jayce and Gnar are shapeshifters, meaning they have 6 basic active abilities and a ult that has different effect in different form(or is the form changing ability in and 's case) , meaning they have 7/8 abilities right?

doesn't even read the text in context and just pinpointing on one word, that is not how you win an arguement.

DengedenOct 18, 20161 votes

That doesn't prove the extra range is abusive in 1v1 lanes. It also doesn't prove she's OP, any high elo blablabla will also agree she needs to bully you out of lane to not be useless during the midgame.

Ok, fine. They have 4 ranged abilities. Without an (impactful) ultimate. With a kit that encourages you to switch to melee form to execute or engage the enemy. But according to you, they could stay in ranged form all game, the ranged part of their kit makes them a complete champion after all, according to you.

The DeckownerOct 18, 20161 votes

jesus how ignorsnt are you to think range doesn't win lanes? Extra range=one-sided trade. The one with longer range can freely land 1 to 2 autos before the enemy can get in range for autoattack, then simply walk back to get out of enemy as range.

DengedenOct 18, 20161 votes

100~ range isn't enough to do that. AA-windup is a thing. Creep aggro is a thing. The rest of their kits are a thing.

RossendaleOct 15, 20163 votes

What do you mean? It's totally fine that I get bullied around by the guy who then also gets to stunlock my whole team in a fight.

Celestial Lion12Oct 16, 20162 votes

I feel like they should add more damage reduction against aas vs ranged champions on dorans shield and make it give some more health regen. so melee champs can farm without getting poked out constantly

AlutrosityOct 15, 20161 votes

{quoted}

can they have a worse teamfight? thanks

Those are two of the worst examples for ranged champions having poor laning phases. The AD Ratio on Gnar's Q is huge, the range is enormous, and he can dance around his opponent with his hop while proccing %hp damage. Kennen likewise has mobility with his E which doubles as an engage and escape, his W is an autoattack steroid, and he can poke from decent range with his Q.

Secondly, both of them are reliant on proper positioning, meaning your best fights with Gnar are going to come while he's in megaform and if you're fighting in the river or jungle where there is lots of terrain, making for an easy ultimate. With Kennen you're typically supposed to come in from behind, a side lane, or brush and use that to engage your ultimate that way your team can either follow up or you take advantage of a hard engage from someone with a knock-up or snare.