I literally bought darius for this exact reason and do well because of this.
Also, aren't champs considered op if, idk, they're banned or picked EVERY GAME EVEN IN WORLDS?
RiotMeddler43 votesHaving power not be a factor in why you pick a champion is one of our goals. We won't always get it right, but it is something we aim for.
Exactly what 'balanced' should mean is also a tricky topic. Balanced for pro play, such as Worlds, will sometimes be different to balanced for regular play (e.g. champions that strongly reward teams that have played together a lot and are on voice comms). Similarly a champion that's balanced for high tier ranked (which is what we most often focus balance on) may be noticeably stronger at less experienced levels of play (e.g. Garen or Amumu) or too weak (e.g. Azir or Le Blanc).
warwiller2 votesMeddler
Balanced means not having one champion have 10000 overall dmg while the other has 1000 and same other stats, whats so tricky about comparing two numbers
RiotMeddler49 votesIf the goal is to make things that are exactly equal, then yeah, I'm with you that balance is easy. When it comes to hard to compare effects on the other hand, particularly when some are much more powerful in certain circumstances than others, it gets quite a bit more difficult. Comparing the value of Rek'Sai's tremor sense in organized 5s versus Silver solo queue for example gives two really different outcomes. It's a lot more valuable in organized 5s, what does that mean for the overall balance of the character? Heimer's turrets by contrast wreck a lot of players pretty hard in solo queue until a certain skill level, but then fall off massively in effectiveness against a team of skilled players, particularly when that team moves and coordinates well as a group.
Skias19 votesIf the goal is to make things that are exactly equal, then yeah, I'm with you that balance is easy. When it comes to hard to compare effects on the other hand, particularly when some are much more powerful in certain circumstances than others, it gets quite a bit more difficult. Comparing the value of Rek'Sai's tremor sense in organized 5s versus Silver solo queue for example gives two really different outcomes. It's a lot more valuable in organized 5s, what does that mean for the overall balance of the character? Heimer's turrets by contrast wreck a lot of players pretty hard in solo queue until a certain skill level, but then fall off massively in effectiveness against a team of skilled players, particularly when that team moves and coordinates well as a group.
I have a lot of concerns when it comes to champion Identity. For instance, champions like Kassadin. He's supposed to be a mobility king. But even spamming riftwalk, cannot escape Yasuo, Kalista, Ekko dashes etc. Are we going to see some toning down of the mobility on champions that perhaps shouldn't have superior mobility as part of their kit? Not saying they shouldn't have any, but it feels really bad to pick a champ for mobility and you can't outrun anything but Veigars.
MrWasjig5 votesI love how this problem of mobility creep is repeatedly ignored by Reds. Makes you think it's what they want to happen.
Silents4295 votesOr it's irrelevant to this conversation and they have at least a hundred other things they can be doing right now.
pWasHere2 votesThis is a thread about balance, so it is very relevant.
Silents4293 votesNo this is about clarifying there balance philosophy, while the question was an entirely different matter.
MrWasjig2 votesSo maybe it was. The matter was still completely ignored. Doesn't make the issue of mobility creep any less of a reality. Those downvotes are probably from people who main champions that are helping to cause the problem.
Silents4292 votesIgnored, or better things to get done, they have to deal with people from these boards, reddit, support, so many places. They will never respond to everyone, and saying they are just ignoring them is unfair to them.
Sozan51 votesIt must be rather tough to balance for different levels of play.
I mean, even taking Lulu top or mid as an example - she doesn't shine at any levels of play except the highest. Balancing her around that level of play will make her useless in all SoloQ and leaving her as she is kills diversity (I believe she is nearly 100% pick/ban right now in Worlds).
manbearswine2 votesIt must be rather tough to balance for different levels of play.
I mean, even taking Lulu top or mid as an example - she doesn't shine at any levels of play except the highest. Balancing her around that level of play will make her useless in all SoloQ and leaving her as she is kills diversity (I believe she is nearly 100% pick/ban right now in Worlds).
That specific case actually isn't that hard.
Just undo ALL of the changes to her since s4(and preaseason s4),it will probably solve the problem(mid/top lulu mostly became a thing due to her increased ap ratios,which support lulu makes very little use of).
Sozan51 votesI don't think it would help. Most changes were actually reverted, the only buffs that remained are;
5% AP scaling on passive 10% AP scaling on W 20 base shield on rank 1 E (it evens out later on)
And things that were nerfed:
Q slow now decays W doesn't give Ability Power (I think it was 60 AP at max rank) W duration lowered at low ranks (was 5 seconds at all ranks) E have 80 base damage less and 20% lower AP scaling on damage
I wouldn't be surprised if old Lulu would actually be even stronger at solo lane. Nobody played her there because very few players realized how great of a solo laner she is (and they "discovered" her after the 3.14 changes).
manbearswine1 votesI don't think it would help. Most changes were actually reverted, the only buffs that remained are;
5% AP scaling on passive 10% AP scaling on W 20 base shield on rank 1 E (it evens out later on)
And things that were nerfed:
Q slow now decays W doesn't give Ability Power (I think it was 60 AP at max rank) W duration lowered at low ranks (was 5 seconds at all ranks) E have 80 base damage less and 20% lower AP scaling on damage
I wouldn't be surprised if old Lulu would actually be even stronger at solo lane. Nobody played her there because very few players realized how great of a solo laner she is (and they "discovered" her after the 3.14 changes).
Let me list the buffs(which remained),and I'll ignore the mana regen changes(cause they are tied with mana regen changes).
E - Help, Pix! Base shield strength increased to 80/120/160/200/240 (from 60/105/150/195/240)
W – Whimsy Movement Speed bonus now scales at +1% per 10 Ability Power (0.1 AP Ratio) COST: 65/70/75/80/85 mana ⇒ 65 mana at all ranks
Passive - Pix, Faerie Companion Added a 0.15 Ability Power ratio
As you can see most of this are ratios,and they aren't small ones at that,we both know that her speed boost for example turns a 5 second 30% speedboost into a 5 second 80% speedboost,and the increased damage on her passive(remember that she tends to cast it on an auto attacker) is far from small as well.
support lulu makes very little out of these changes,can't say the same for top/mid lulu.
Sozan51 votesI mentioned all of them (except the mana cost on W).
And yes those are ratio buffs, but she also got a major ratio nerf (the 20% on her E). Also, I agree that W ratio is by far the biggest buff - at least in mid-late game (early the old one was better, thanks to the longer duration). Still, I wouldn't say that new Lulu is strictly better at top lane than old Lulu (old one would have significantly stronger early, thanks to 80 more damage on E (rank 5), 20% more scaling and full duration on self-cast W, but would fall off a bit harder than current Lulu).
I don't think that reverting the Lulu to her state pre 3.14 would stop her from being picked top and mid in high level play - though it would bring more power to support Lulu and that would be cool. :D
manbearswine1 votesI mentioned all of them (except the mana cost on W).
Well you said the buff on passive was 5% ap ratio,it's actually 15%.
And yes those are ratio buffs, but she also got a major ratio nerf (the 20% on her E). Also, I agree that W ratio is by far the biggest buff - at least in mid-late game (early the old one was better, thanks to the longer duration).
Well I'm not sure how exactly its usage distribution goes,but e was and still is much stronger defensively than offensively,as a shield is basically reversed true damage and it had about the same damage+ratio when used defensively as offensively,just that offensively it was mitigated by mr.
Still, I wouldn't say that new Lulu is strictly better at top lane than old Lulu (old one would have significantly stronger early, thanks to 80 more damage on E (rank 5), 20% more scaling and full duration on self-cast W, but would fall off a bit harder than current Lulu).
Thing is that as much people whine about lulu as a lane bully,I don't feel like she really can bully most meta top laners,with double jungle start+tp+cheaper mr it is very hard for lulu to bully anyone anymore,she relies on her lategame.
I don't think that reverting the Lulu to her state pre 3.14 would stop her from being picked top and mid in high level play - though it would bring more power to support Lulu and that would be cool. :D
Well I'm not sure,I actually want to see how it does in competitive,but I don't want to see what the casters want me to see,so I really can't stand watching it.
...why can't we spectate competitive games in the client like in dota...
Sozan51 votesI wouldn't say she relies on lategame either. She relies on the fact that gold pools in pro scene are very similar to each other.
There are less kills, less snowballing and generally less gold than in your standard soloQ games. For example, in a 30 minute game the pros usually have 40-45k gold each team with even a few thousand difference being a game changer. 30 minute game in soloQ - one team have 46k, the other have over 54k and the game is far from over.
And Lulu doesn't snowball that much. She brings a lot of utility and decent damage however, which skilled teams can utilize to great effect. In SoloQ the snowball potential is much more important than utility and not needing that much money to be effective.
manbearswine1 votesI wouldn't say she relies on lategame either. She relies on the fact that gold pools in pro scene are very similar to each other.
There are less kills, less snowballing and generally less gold than in your standard soloQ games. For example, in a 30 minute game the pros usually have 40-45k gold each team with even a few thousand difference being a game changer. 30 minute game in soloQ - one team have 46k, the other have over 54k and the game is far from over.
And Lulu doesn't snowball that much. She brings a lot of utility and decent damage however, which skilled teams can utilize to great effect. In SoloQ the snowball potential is much more important than utility and not needing that much money to be effective.
I disagree with this.
If you look at top winrates,many of these champions aren't snowballers at all,going by champion.gg: You have morde,which is blatantly overpowered so we will just ignore him. then you have lux,which really isn't much of a snowballer. then you have annie,which is solid at snowballing,but not something amazing. then you have blitz,which is kinda open for debate,but let's say he is good at snowballing. then you have malphite,which isn't much of a snowballer. then you have wukong,which is open for debate. then amumu which isn't a snowballer. then you have malz which isn't much of a snowballer. then you have zyra which isn't a snowballer. and these are the top 9 winrates(I ignored top karthus as it was just with a 0.2% pickrate)
(generally to be a snowballer you need good mobility to force trades,and well...damage to get kills from those trades)
Finally I would like to remind you of janna(who was nerfed over her winrate) which was the very opposite of a snowballer,and of course you have soraka,which actually is a very hard snowballer but not in the "must get kills" sense(and in fact one can claim lulu to be similar to her).
OKAY SO THE POINT OF THIS WHOLE LONG THING IS: I think people very much overrate snowballing potential in solo q purely over ego("hurr durr,me team is retarded,me genius,me must carry scrub team"),it really isn't very important.
DokiDokiTodoroki1 votesHow would you describe snowballing then? If you're saying that Lux and Annie aren't much then I don't know what you expect. They both have relatively low CD combos that can one shot lane opponents and squishy targets when ahead. A fed Malphite and Amumu become nigh unkillable, which is a huge asset to a team in soloq. A fed Malz's e and a fed Zyra's q can take out half the health of a squishy target. If that's not snowballing, then what is?
manbearswine1 votes[{quoted}](name=Squishy BunBun,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t1sEJUPd,comment-id=000800000000000500000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-09T03:41:33.859+0000)
How would you describe snowballing then? If you're saying that Lux and Annie aren't much then I don't know what you expect. They both have relatively low CD combos that can one shot lane opponents and squishy targets when ahead. A fed Malphite and Amumu become nigh unkillable, which is a huge asset to a team in soloq. A fed Malz's e and a fed Zyra's q can take out half the health of a squishy target. If that's not snowballing, then what is?
If that is snowballing,then I don't know what isn't.
Snowballers are assassins,things like zed,riven,le blanc,rengar,katarina,akali things which go nigh unstoppable and will just keep on getting bigger the moment they get a lead,things which will just kill you under tower if they have a lead,things which you can't get near when fed,and will just go destroy other lanes instead.
Basically things which can force trades easily and then win those trades,mobility and reliability are key here. Lux has neither,a fed lux has no reason to snowball out of control compared to a zed,annie has issues with mobility,so even if she get's a lead champions can still farm from a distance(there's still an issue with her flash combo,but that one has a large cd),zyra is so fucking immobile and unreliable there's very little ways for her to force further advantage from a current one.
Zed in the meanwhile will just get in your face and all in you the second he has a chance(with little regard for your tower as well),riven will just run at you with stupid mobility,damage and cc,rengar will keep spamming his ult for easy kills if her gets a lead,these are snowballers.
DokiDokiTodoroki1 votesSnowballing is taking a lead and pushing your advantage further. Almost every champion can do this, even if some bruisers like Lee Sin or Pantheon fall off harder late game and have to compensate with build paths.
If you think that assassins are the only ones that can snowball, then clearly you have never seen a fed Draven, Jinx, or Vayne. If a Katarina is reliable and they're not, then we must be playing different games. A fed Lux can blow up a Zed before he even steps in range to R. In fact, a fed Lux can blow up almost anyone before they come in range for ANY of their abilities because of her insane range and ability to full combo someone and actually kill them. Compared to Zed, who can only assassinate one champion mid to late game, Lux has much more overall impact in a team fight and will have a much higher damage output when ahead. Any laner with kill pressure should be able to capitalize on a lead and eventually abuse any champions on the enemy team that are too far behind to catch up. All those "criteria" that you mentioned apply to champions like Lux, Annie, and hell, even Zyra, but you're choosing to ignore their strength and would rather just ignore the very obvious weaknesses of the close ranged, very squishy assassin type champions.
Anyway, the way that this discussion even started was because they said that Lulu doesn't have snowball potential and thus isn't seen much as a solo laner in soloq. I personally agree with this, because Lulu is not designed to be a carry like most of the other champions that have been mentioned. Her utility is almost godlike but it also involves putting your faith in one member to carry you and that's not going to happen at basically any level of soloq. Her damage output will be relatively low, and that's what keeps her from being a snowballing champ, not the fact that she's simply not an assassin.
manbearswine1 votes[{quoted}](name=Squishy BunBun,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t1sEJUPd,comment-id=00080000000000050000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-09T04:21:28.353+0000)
Snowballing is taking a lead and pushing your advantage further. Almost every champion can do this, even if some bruisers like Lee Sin or Pantheon fall off harder late game and have to compensate with build paths.
That's why I said "If that is snowballing,then I don't know what isn't." ALL champions snowball,some just do it harder than others,these guys are "snowballers".
If you think that assassins are the only ones that can snowball, then clearly you have never seen a fed Draven, Jinx, or Vayne. If a Katarina is reliable and they're not, then we must be playing different games.
Let's say I played a game with jinx,draven,vayne and katarina in it,and one of them got 20 kills,which one do you think that was? That one was the snowballer. Sure some adcs are more snowbally than others,but the biggest snowballers are mostly elsewhere.
A fed Lux can blow up a Zed before he even steps in range to R.
No,she can't.
In fact, a fed Lux can blow up almost anyone before they come in range for ANY of their abilities because of her insane range and ability to full combo someone and actually kill them.
If you get easily hit by lux snare at max range then you suck.
Compared to Zed, who can only assassinate one champion mid to late game, Lux has much more overall impact in a team fight and will have a much higher damage output when ahead.
This is basically "lux is a strong champions",strong=/= snowbally. Hell take akali for example,45.31% winrate,but we both know she's one of the hardest snowballers in the game,and surprise surprise,she has an average of 9.87 kills per game,highest of all mid laners,lux on the other hand,sitting on 54.84% winrate,nearly a massive 10% more has an average of 7.26 kills per game ranked 24/45 for mid laners.
A good snowballer can force trades easily,lux cannot do that.
Any laner with kill pressure should be able to capitalize on a lead and eventually abuse any champions on the enemy team that are too far behind to catch up.
But some do it better than others,and lux is NOT among them.
All those "criteria" that you mentioned apply to champions like Lux, Annie, and hell, even Zyra, but you're choosing to ignore their strength and would rather just ignore the very obvious weaknesses of the close ranged, very squishy assassin type champions.
What The natural and obvious strength of not snowbally champions is that they are much more effective when behind compared to their snowbally counterparts,a riven when behind is nearly worthless,and lulu when behind is still extremely useful. I even told you that snowball potential is overrated,what are you talking about?
Anyway, the way that this discussion even started was because they said that Lulu doesn't have snowball potential and thus isn't seen much as a solo laner in soloq. I personally agree with this, because Lulu is not designed to be a carry like most of the other champions that have been mentioned. Her utility is almost godlike but it also involves putting your faith in one member to carry you and that's not going to happen at basically any level of soloq.
Isn't this exactly what janna does,yet got nerfed really hard for that? Do you pay no attention to the abomination which is soraka right now? This is just not true.
Sozan51 votesI think you missed my point a bit.
manbearswine1 votesI think you missed my point a bit.
- Snowballing is something that every champion can do (Lulu included). It just means that a champion gets an advantage and then uses it to secure even bigger advantage. It doesn't have to include kills, but it usually does (since kills give you significant gold lead).
- Lulu however, is a champion which doesn't rely much on snowballing, nor does she snowballs as hard as most other top and mid champions (she doesn't get as tanky, nor as damaging - and her utility do not scale that hard either).
Well I would say my reply to the other guy(which I confused to be you >_>),is still relevant to this.
Some of the champions which are most likely to win games are not good at snowballing,in particular you have the example between lux and akali,having nearly a 10% winrate difference,but akali getting notably more kills than lux even so,snowball potential in soloq is highly overrated due to egos,janna was a testament to that,soraka still is.
manbearswine1 votesI'm gonna put this here cause otherwise you don't get a notification,these forums are annoying...
[{quoted}](name=Squishy BunBun,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t1sEJUPd,comment-id=00080000000000050000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-09T04:21:28.353+0000)
Snowballing is taking a lead and pushing your advantage further. Almost every champion can do this, even if some bruisers like Lee Sin or Pantheon fall off harder late game and have to compensate with build paths.
That's why I said "If that is snowballing,then I don't know what isn't." ALL champions snowball,some just do it harder than others,these guys are "snowballers".
If you think that assassins are the only ones that can snowball, then clearly you have never seen a fed Draven, Jinx, or Vayne. If a Katarina is reliable and they're not, then we must be playing different games.
Let's say I played a game with jinx,draven,vayne and katarina in it,and one of them got 20 kills,which one do you think that was? That one was the snowballer. Sure some adcs are more snowbally than others,but the biggest snowballers are mostly elsewhere.
A fed Lux can blow up a Zed before he even steps in range to R.
No,she can't.
In fact, a fed Lux can blow up almost anyone before they come in range for ANY of their abilities because of her insane range and ability to full combo someone and actually kill them.
If you get easily hit by lux snare at max range then you suck.
Compared to Zed, who can only assassinate one champion mid to late game, Lux has much more overall impact in a team fight and will have a much higher damage output when ahead.
This is basically "lux is a strong champion",strong=/= snowbally. Hell take akali for example,45.31% winrate,but we both know she's one of the hardest snowballers in the game,and surprise surprise,she has an average of 9.87 kills per game,highest of all mid laners,lux on the other hand,sitting on 54.84% winrate,nearly a massive 10% more has an average of 7.26 kills per game ranked 24/45 for mid laners.
A good snowballer can force trades easily,lux cannot do that.
Any laner with kill pressure should be able to capitalize on a lead and eventually abuse any champions on the enemy team that are too far behind to catch up.
But some do it better than others,and lux is NOT among them.
All those "criteria" that you mentioned apply to champions like Lux, Annie, and hell, even Zyra, but you're choosing to ignore their strength and would rather just ignore the very obvious weaknesses of the close ranged, very squishy assassin type champions.
What The natural and obvious strength of not snowbally champions is that they are much more effective when behind compared to their snowbally counterparts,a riven when behind is nearly worthless,and lulu when behind is still extremely useful. I even told you that snowball potential is overrated,what are you talking about?
Anyway, the way that this discussion even started was because they said that Lulu doesn't have snowball potential and thus isn't seen much as a solo laner in soloq. I personally agree with this, because Lulu is not designed to be a carry like most of the other champions that have been mentioned. Her utility is almost godlike but it also involves putting your faith in one member to carry you and that's not going to happen at basically any level of soloq.
Isn't this exactly what janna does,yet got nerfed really hard for that? Do you pay no attention to the abomination which is soraka right now? This is just not true.
SpecterVonBaren1 votesYou forgot the removal of her ability to shield allied minions. sigh I still miss that.
Sozan51 votesActually, in what I wrote at start I didn't miss it.
However, that was simply too long to keep (so I rewrote my whole post) and besides - shielding minions was more of a gimmick than anything else.
SpecterVonBaren1 votesit was useful for pushing or denying a canon minion.
badooga1 votesObviously, a champion with a high skill floor and/or high skill ceiling should win more games in higher tiers like Gold, Platinum, etc, all the way up to Worlds level. A champion with a lower skill floor would be best suited for lower tiers, but these champions should generally not have such a high skill floor to compensate.
Regarding the comparisons you made, Garen and Amumu are supposed to be used more at lower tiers of play, but this is not the same as a champion being "OP" in that tier due to that tier not being able to perform counterplay as well. When a champion is picked in higher tiers more, a similar approach also applies: being meant to have a higher level of sophistication and skill put into that champion shouldn't necessarily cause that very champion to be worse in other tiers; they should be able to perform well in all tiers as the higher skill ceiling can be utilized better by better players, who may need this to do better against their high tier opponents. But of course, this skill ceiling should not translate to being OP in higher tiers.
A good example of this COULD have been Ryze. He is a simple burst mage where you can go R>W>Q>E and try to kill someone. However, better players would be able to utilize the more sophisticated parts of his kit, and use other combos that use his full potential better. This does NOT mean that Ryze should have been able to perform the way he did after his rework, when he was OP due to the extremely high skill floor that you added, which was too much and made him OP.
When designing and balancing champions, their kits do not have to have a team element to it (Fiora's new ult, Kindred's ult, things like that). A champion could easily have a full solo-player like kit, but to perform well with the champion, their weaknesses should correlate with how a team works (like an ADC should be immobile or lack defensive CC, and to compensate the support or other members of the team are able to peel with CC or healing).
BluePolarizer2 votesYou have mixed up ”skill cap" with "team utility". Riven doesn't have much team utility, but a very high skill cap. That is why she isn't good in pro games while she absolutely shit stomps solo queue. Same with Fizz.
badooga1 votesOne of my points was meant to be that team ultility and skill cap should not necessarily be related. Champions like Riven, when balanced in terms of solo play, can perform well as her team can compensate for her weaknesses (lowish range besides ult, for example). They way I wrote this was a bit confusing, but thanks anyway.
shadecrapper2 votesSo can Riot then release a statement saying "Gold players and down, we've heard you but balancing the game for you is too hard. So, get over it or get good."
warwiller1 votesIf the goal is to make things that are exactly equal, then yeah, I'm with you that balance is easy. When it comes to hard to compare effects on the other hand, particularly when some are much more powerful in certain circumstances than others, it gets quite a bit more difficult. Comparing the value of Rek'Sai's tremor sense in organized 5s versus Silver solo queue for example gives two really different outcomes. It's a lot more valuable in organized 5s, what does that mean for the overall balance of the character? Heimer's turrets by contrast wreck a lot of players pretty hard in solo queue until a certain skill level, but then fall off massively in effectiveness against a team of skilled players, particularly when that team moves and coordinates well as a group.
There's only one level of comparison, the level of logic. Logic calls for variety and speciality, not filling people with so much abilities they burst by being looked at
LankPants5 votesHaving power not be a factor in why you pick a champion is one of our goals. We won't always get it right, but it is something we aim for.
Why are extreme outliers like Sona allowed to exist for years then? Sona's been pretty much garbage since mid S4, and yet only nerfed her since that time.
TurquoiseYoshi2 votesIt's a lot easier to let a bad champion rot for a while than it is to let a champion be OP for a while.
therealdragon2 votesHaving power not be a factor in why you pick a champion is one of our goals. We won't always get it right, but it is something we aim for.
Exactly what 'balanced' should mean is also a tricky topic. Balanced for pro play, such as Worlds, will sometimes be different to balanced for regular play (e.g. champions that strongly reward teams that have played together a lot and are on voice comms). Similarly a champion that's balanced for high tier ranked (which is what we most often focus balance on) may be noticeably stronger at less experienced levels of play (e.g. Garen or Amumu) or too weak (e.g. Azir or Le Blanc).
ok I do get that. In worlds the players (are supposed to) have coordination and work together. In soloq high ranked, judging by complaints on the boards, the coordination isn't always there.
Also, when you say balanced, are you aiming for everyone to be OP and in that, no one is? Basically: http://i.imgur.com/oeTX2a9.gif
Or are you aiming for legit balance where tanks will tank damage without doing much damage, mages will be able to burst someone in a blink, etc?
edit: got a better nerf for darius since the last one was nothing xD. Increase the cd of Darius' Q. Currently, he can basically spam his Q and heal his opponents damage without much mana issues. If the cd gets increased however, he'll have to be more careful where and when to use his q. This will make players actually have to use his q skillfully instead of "Oh I missed with q? Try again in 6s lol"
Caezium3 votesHis Q is 1 bleed stack, on each unit hit by it.
The Queen Viper12 votesJust please for the love of god, do NOT let **CertainlyT ** design champions again.
TomA3X6 votesHe's a fantastic designer, i'd much rather they didn't let you play league again.
The Queen Viper4 votesHi, CertainlyT fanboy!
Unfortunately for all of us, it is quite clear that your beloved idol CertainlyT is incapable of designing balanced champions. Which creates a lot of issues, like this current Mordekaiser fiasco we have right now.
TomA3X9 votesI'm no fanboy, I just don't like arrogant pricks who would destroy a man's livelihood because they lost a few games to certain champions.
And for the record, it's the balance team which tinkers the numbers on champions, not the designer. CertainlyT dreams up some amazing mechanics.
Voluug138 votesAmazing mechanics only for the one playing.
And the balancing team cant do miracles.
Look at how overnerfed yet still dangerous is Yasuo.
Look at Morde's brokeness. Literal Pick or Ban on Worlds, probably gonna get ultra nerfed.
Look at Kalista and how unfun is to fight against her.
Look at Zyra needing to be overnerfed.
And no one is going to ''destroy a man's livehood''. But CertainlyT's design always fall into OP, toxic or both. He has good ideas but is completly terrible at implementing them. He shouldnt design champions alone. Make him a team designer with someone who can keep the tabs on balance while designing and keep CT from going overboard with the mechanic overload.
Vantooth2 votesPersonally I think it's a horrible philosophy to balance anything around worlds. They do not even make 1% of the player base. I'm not saying to ignore high-level pay but diamond/platinum is a much better reference than worlds. I do think balance should be given more attention around gold/silver/bronze since this is around 80% (I don't remember exactly so correct me if I'm wrong) of the players. So why is it that world/LCS/ "pro" play is such an important factor? Many things that works for them only work because they all know each other and have played hundreds of games together. So why nerf/buff those things in solo queue when it's very unlikely that it is overpower/underpower?
Biffolo6 votesBecause the highest level of play is the only group who uses all the tools riot gives them, and as such are the only group actually playing the game correctly.
Bionic Avian2 votesHaving power not be a factor in why you pick a champion is one of our goals. We won't always get it right, but it is something we aim for.
Exactly what 'balanced' should mean is also a tricky topic. Balanced for pro play, such as Worlds, will sometimes be different to balanced for regular play (e.g. champions that strongly reward teams that have played together a lot and are on voice comms). Similarly a champion that's balanced for high tier ranked (which is what we most often focus balance on) may be noticeably stronger at less experienced levels of play (e.g. Garen or Amumu) or too weak (e.g. Azir or Le Blanc).
I'd like to ask then, with Morde being so heavily powered (not overpowered, he has his weak points,) but early he's just a monster. Even with the community saying "Hey, he's kind of broken" on PBE, his numbers weren't toned down. He's been banned every game, amongst others in Solo Queue. They're like old Kassadin, someone who had to be begged by the community to be nerfed, and even then he's still really strong now (but not stupidly so.) I'm just curious how 4 champions who were clearly reworked from bottom tier to top-tier picks/bans got through PBE without any foresight into toning down the numbers beforehand.
I mean hell, I'm a dev in training, I know the struggle of balance, but with the community sending up red flags at every point that they could, isn't there a little bit. If champions have a sudden jump in ban-rate from 0% before worlds to 100% Pick/Ban participation, and the team that picked him wasn't even fully ready to play him (they just wanted to avoid BKT getting him,) and still tore up the enemy team, that leaves into question where the true balance of these champions lies. Their kits are heavy to damage, heal, and fight. But when you get one small lead on one of these, it's hard not to snowball.
Nagma2 votesCassiopeia buffs when ?
ihaveapotion1 votesHey im one of those players that intentionally picks 'up' champs and as a result of this loses every game, gets reported 9/10 and probably will end up a serialkiller irl because of the toxicity i have to deal with every single game of league. greets.
shadecrapper2 votesOkay... that doesn't make sense. Youre trying to change the game, which charnges power lvl's of champions. People picking different champions because of how strong they are is literally what pick and ban phase is... You also just released Fiora and the Juggs... But I guess saying "screw the lower levels of play, they don't matter" is cool too.
Abyssphere14 votesI don't get the point of this thread. Riot is more aware than anyone that they haven't achieved their goal, but it's a borderline impossible goal to achieve. They clearly are not OK with 100% pick/ban champions.
Voluug133 votesI could agree except for the fact they ignore the goal when they want and only for certain champions or designers. No is asking for perfect balance, but blabanty ignoring cases like Riven and Lee Sin because ''muh fanbase'' while pushing badly designed things like Mordekaiser and Cassiopeia. really says something.
