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@Riot Suggestion to fix probably some Support Issues - Sightstone Versatility

Warden Karma··56 votes·3,303 views

Hello Community and Member Riots :)

Supports are in a better spot now than seasons before, but there are still many issues with them.

  • Supports have "3 Core Items" to buy.
    • Named: Sightstone, one Supportitem + Boots. While other roles have less Core Items to get and have often choices what to buy, Supports dont in case of the SIghtstone, which is maybe the most important Core Item for them.
  • Sightstone favors Tank Supports.
    • While Health is useful in the one way or another for every Support, it is not so effective on Utility and Poke Supports than on Tank Supports.
  • These Issues reduces the Support versatility
    • Especially for Supports, who are relieing on Items to be effective e.g. Poke Supports.

The Idea of having a choice among several Sightstones is not a new one. But with my Suggestion I want to fix more than just the Sightstone Problem. I also want to fix the Core-Items Problem. With Sightstone giving Movementspeed, Boots become actually an option for many Supports – now you can more easily exchange Boots for another Item, which offers you MS, such as Twin Shadows or even an Item without.. The downside of this is, however, the increase in price for the Sightstones. Upgrading a Sightstone costs ~200 more than before, but are much more worth the gold than before. Also the last Upgrade refils itself - like the Wardtrinkets, which fixes another issue a little: to teleport back to base just to refill your Sightstone.

Upgradeable from a new Basic Item, the 3 new Supportstones represent Defense, Aggression and Utility and are so to say Counterparts to item 3303 item 3301 item 3302. You are free to Combine the Sightstone and the Supportitems.

Edit: I decreased the flat Movementspeed but made it higher when out of Combat (like Mobility Boots). It also does not stack with Boots. On top of that you can add a boots enhancement to your Sightstone :) Leaves the Problem how to prevent laners to buy it.

[New Item]: Tigereye http://i62.tinypic.com/5v2no4.jpg _325 Gold + and one of the Following/their Upgrades: item 3303 item 3301 item 3302 _

  • [Unique: Enhanced Movement]: + 10 Movementspeed. Increases to 30 when Out of Combat for 5 Seconds.
  • [Unique Passive]: Places a Ward, which lasts for 3 Minuts. (1 Stack, refill by visiting the shop).

Tigereye can not be bought if you have one of the Jungler Items.

For the Next Upgrade you need to have one of the following/Upgraded: item 3098 item 3096 item 3097

Amber http://i61.tinypic.com/o5xgu0.png http://i62.tinypic.com/5v2no4.jpg + item 1028 + 300 Gold

  • 200 Health
  • [Unique: Enhanced Movement]: + 20 Movementspeed. Increases to 60 when Out of Combat for 5 Seconds.
  • [Unique Passive]: Places a Ward, which lasts for 3 Minuts. (4 Stacks. Stacks refresh by visiting the base)

Rubellite http://i60.tinypic.com/2ive883.png http://i62.tinypic.com/5v2no4.jpg + item 1052 + 300 Gold

  • 30 AP
  • [Unique: Enhanced Movement]: + 20 Movementspeed. Increases to 60 when Out of Combat for 5 Seconds.
  • [Unique Passive]: Places a Ward, which lasts for 3 Minuts. (4 Stacks. Stacks refresh by visiting the base)

Jade http://i59.tinypic.com/308ikwo.png http://i62.tinypic.com/5v2no4.jpg + item 1027 + 300 Gold

  • 200 Mana
  • [Unique: Enhanced Movement]: + 20 Movementspeed. Increases to 60 when Out of Combat for 5 Seconds.
  • [Unique Passive]: Reduces the Cooldown of Active-Items by 7,5%.
  • [Unique Passive]: Places a Ward, which lasts for 3 Minuts. (4 Stacks. Stacks refresh by visiting the base)

Ruby item 2045 http://i61.tinypic.com/o5xgu0.png + item 1028 + 600 Gold

  • 400 Health
  • [Unique: Enhanced Movement]: + 30 Movementspeed. Increases to 90 when Out of Combat for 5 Seconds.
  • [Unique Passive]: Places a Ward, which lasts for 3 Minuts. (5 Stacks. Stacks refresh by visiting the base)
  • [Unique Passive]: Refills one Stack each 90 Seconds.

Amethyst http://i58.tinypic.com/28vawxd.png http://i60.tinypic.com/2ive883.png + item 1052 + 600 Gold

  • 60 AP
  • [Unique: Enhanced Movement]: + 30 Movementspeed. Increases to 90 when Out of Combat for 5 Seconds.
  • [Unique Passive]: Places a Ward, which lasts for 3 Minuts. (5 Stacks. Stacks refresh by visiting the base)
  • [Unique Passive]: Refills one Stack each 90 Seconds.

Sapphire http://i61.tinypic.com/k2067d.png http://i59.tinypic.com/308ikwo.png + item 1027 + 600 Gold

  • 400 Mana
  • [Unique: Enhanced Movement]: + 30 Movementspeed. Increases to 90 when Out of Combat for 5 Seconds.
  • [Unique Passive]: Reduces the Cooldown of Active-Items by 15%.
  • [Unique Passive]: Places a Ward, which lasts for 3 Minuts. (5 Stacks. Stacks refresh by visiting the base)
  • [Unique Passive]: Refills one Stack each 90 Seconds.

You can Upgrade your final Sightstone (Ruby, Sapphire, Amethyst) with the Boots Enhancements in the end. This would made 15 Sightstones in the end (Junglers have 16 Items to choose from).

Thoughts?^^

** Some "crazy" Ideas:** ----- Give Supports with a Sightstone an Orb flying behind/around them with the reprensitive Color of their SIghtstone, changing eachtime the Sightstone is Upgraded (growing bigger, getting a form, maybe even like a pet? Like devourer but with Faes or something? Each stone could have another animal?)

What also should be done:

item 3098

AP 10 --> 20

item 3092

AP 50 --> 70 [New Passive]: Reduces the actives Cooldown by 5 Seconds for each enemy Champion hit with it.

93 Comments

UPfreely4 votes

what if they just removed sightstone and made it a boot upgrade?

Delioth2 votes

Then we couldn't have our pick of boot upgrades- rather than making more choice, it just frees up an item slot but denies supports from having the boots we would rather have.

I guess it solves the problem of laners taking it... but even then, if it works out decently enough you end up with both sides in every engagement taking those boots instead, and vision becomes out-of-hand. If it doesn't work, supports would probably want it the way it had been because it strips a choice away from us (Yeah, many of us get mobi boots anyways, but it at least feels like a choice; "I'm getting these so I can go help mid and jung when they need it," rather than "I need to take this because I'm a support and have to take the vision option.")

I'd prefer the OP's suggestion. Seems a little complex, but that's probably just the formatting- fixable with decent diagrams (Like the shop menu gives). Not sure about the movespeed, since I run movespeed quints anyways and it's not as good as getting boots, but I like where the rest of it goes.

UPfreely2 votes

well it doesn't have to be tier 2 boots, it could be like alacrity or captains the reason i'm not super fond of the OP's suggestion is that its still an item you 'have' to buy. you always have to spend an item slot/lots of money on this vision when i'd rather spend the bulk of my gold on situation items i buy for their effects. i.e. if you always had to buy dorans blade into IE into statikk shiv it'd be very boring, no? granted rushing boots isn't always appealing but i find it more palatable than sacrificing an item slot.

Devack The Holy1 votes

They tried something similar during Black Market Brawlers... It didn't work...

RIP Teleport Enchantment. You never had the chance to show how OP you were...

UPfreely1 votes

a summer spell is... radically different... imagine flash boots or ignite boots or exhaut boots, they'd be mandatory due to their massive strengths. this is basically a boot you can upgrade to yellow trinket so you can keep your sweeper or pink ward trinket.

Devack The Holy1 votes

It didn't help that said enchant was bugged and caused the item to never be purchasable. In which case, the same may happen if they do a item 3361 enchant.

RookPusher3 votes

Me and my 10k donation to Riot last year fully endorse this 1000%.

Throw the supports a bone. We already play the most boring, most abusive role. If you've given the junglers diversity, just give it to the support. Love this.

Warden Karma2 votes

Thanks :)

WiegrafOfValor3 votes

I would build this items in any champiom, any role..

45 MS + 400HP = HECARIM META :D

45 MS + 60AP = AHRI + LB META :D

Warden Karma5 votes

You have to have item 3301 /item 3303 /item 3302 too then^^

WiegrafOfValor2 votes

Even better, generate gold just reduce my power spike.

I'm not saying the idea is bad, just need something to make the item attach to the support role.

Robert Smith3 votes

what is stopping a nonsupport from buying this? Smite at least stops some from getting devour

Warden Karma14 votes

You have to have one of the Support Items: item 3301 item 3303 item 3302 ^^

Robert Smith3 votes

But what is stopping them from buying that Riot said they don't want to buff spell thief because mid mages might take it

Davy Crockett1 votes

some mages already take it mid anyways such as Xerath and lulu (then again im bronze so...)

Auryiel6 votes

No one worth balancing around takes Spellthief mid

KingKong23505 votes

does your mid hate CSin? Because spellthief passive is deactivated for 15 seconds after you kill a minion. If your mid lane would rather generate gold by poking for +15 gold every 45 seconds, time to find a new mid lane. Unless you expend all 3 charges, cs while 3 charges build up, and then blow all 3 charges instantly again. I don't think that would work either though

Auryiel2 votes

Not sure why you're saying that to me and not the other guy... lol

50000000000000002 votes

It can work on mages with DoT (Brand, Cassiopeia, and Morgana). Probably not worth it, though. Doran's Ring gives better mana regen.

TurquoiseYoshi3 votes

I can kinda see mid laners buying spellthief's so they could get Amethyst. You get money for harass, you get extra sight, move speed, and AP from some items. I would personally buy it early, use it to get a lot of nice dolla dolla and utility, and sell it late for pure AP. But the idea is definitely good.

Warden Karma6 votes

Spellthiefs passive is deactivated if you farm minions with it.

But I see it might occur to be abused (well actually of course it will if it works) so how about you need item 3303 for the Tigereye, and item 3098 to Upgrade it etc.?

TurquoiseYoshi3 votes

I actually didn't know the spellthief's passive is disabled by CS. The more you know.

Champion Skin1 votes

You could potentially use spellthief if you are able to clear the wave quickly and then it would likely take more than 15 seconds before the first CS in the next wave dies and you would have some time to proc the spellthief

I wouldn't recommend it... but you could possibly make it work (Oh and never get item 3098 )

item 3303 cost 365 gold and gives you at most 7 GP10 (2 GP10 and 5 gold ever proc and you get 1 charge every 10 seconds)

.

item 3098 cost 500 gold (for the upgrade) and gives you at most an ADDITIONAL 5 GP10 (5 extra gold on each proc)

item 3098 this costs more and gives less gold compared toitem 3303 and on top of that you will also get it latter on in the game... so it is almost never worth it to upgrade item 3303 (and most people don't think item 3092 active is worth the horrible stats the item has)

Need Gold 4 Tent2 votes

I can see it on mid roamers with mobility boots though. That, imo is the best way to utilize it on a non-support. Gank, come back to proc stacks and clear wave, gank again, repeat. I did roam twitch mid and noticed my cs was really lousy anyway (about the same as the jungler). While it's no good on twitch for sure, I can see it working on... Annie (autoattack easy proc and stupid ganks from level 2), Brand (decent ganks and easy passive proc) then all the poison mages because easy proc (except they don't roam well)... actually those are the only ones I can think of. Others either have a hard time procing stacks or don't really gank well early to afford roaming anyway.

That being said, there are better options.

Baby Ghoul2 votes

This would be such a great improvement to the game.

I do hope Riot looks at how some supports struggle because Sightstone doesn't offer them anything but health, yet it's a required item because vision is important. This would help so many supports become much more viable.

Divewing2 votes

If you intend to completely dissuade non-supports from getting any of these, movespeed + should be unique, otherwise I think this is pretty solid, heck even as is I doubt many non-supports would buy it

Mad Milliner2 votes

This is a pretty great idea. Probably not perfect, but a really good start toward supports having more fun.

Nekusen2 votes

its a good idea, BUT:

  • Movement speed should be in a different one, the common stat should probably be HP

  • All should only refill while visiting the shop, it makes for a more strategic thought when placing them. For self refilling there are the trinkets.

Ariel the Cruel4 votes

Sightstone is a sub-par option compared to upgraded yellow trinket. The primary reason it's bought is so the support can grab a sweeper. This is primarily because trinkets refresh. Unless you're re-positioning your wards constantly, the extra charges aren't necessary.

only zhule1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sjr1UvZN,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2015-08-25T04:29:16.276+0000)

Sightstone is a sub-par option compared to upgraded yellow trinket. The primary reason it's bought is so the support can grab a sweeper. This is primarily because trinkets refresh. Unless you're re-positioning your wards constantly, the extra charges aren't necessary.

Honestly i would LOVE wards to slowly refresh on item 2049 there are way to many games where as a support i have to decided between helping my allies or going back to base so i can refill my item so that i can actually provide vision for the team. It would be really nice to have a means to keep the map warded that wasn't popping back to base every 3 minutes.

Over all item 2049 is kind of a shit item. while i will admit that vision is super important, having a role be forced to drop 800 gold in the very early game is kind of shitty. Then have that item be stuck in the inventory till the VERY LAST POSSIBLE MOMENT is a real pain.

So i can think of two characters, Lee and Braum who can "abuse" sight stone even if they aren't in a support role. But other then those two, are there any other characters that people can think of who would grab sight stone in a non support role?

Ariel the Cruel3 votes

So i can think of two characters, Lee and Braum who can "abuse" sight stone even if they aren't in a support role. But other then those two, are there any other characters that people can think of who would grab sight stone in a non support role?

A) Barum can't ward hop. Sadly. B) LeeSin Katarina Jax Elise I feel like I'm forgetting someone.

only zhule1 votes

Can Elise repel onto wards? is she limited in where she can touch down by her vision? i honestly have never played her so i don't know what the limits on that ability are.

Warden Karma2 votes

Not to wards of her own team. I think you can do it with enemy Wards though.

Warden Karma2 votes

As I said, Health is usefull for every Support, but still has its favorites (tanks). Movementspeed is more usefull compared to Health to more Supports and I wanted to free an extra Inventoryslot for Supports.

Crowe Stalker1 votes

But how would that even work? Riot doesn't exactly have Dawngate's Role Selection System, there'd be nothing to stop anyone else from picking up those items unless that 8th spot had some other role oriented items...

Warden Karma1 votes

Besides to have one Support Item to buy it, people might still want to get those. I am currently thinking of how to prevent others to buy it.

Devack The Holy1 votes

TBH, would allowing other roles to buy them be a bad thing? That way, maybe they'd actually ward!

Crowe Stalker1 votes

The Support Item having movement speed would only make sense if they also counted as item 1001

Warden Karma2 votes

Added :)

Devack The Holy1 votes

The thing is, Supports lose that the instant they swap the ward trinket for Sweeper (Usually in the same purchase as SS), so they lose the refreshing ward. I can't count how many times I've seen a support recall or had to recall just to get more charges on my stone. And waiting for the extra gold to grab even a small part of your next item with no wards is dangerous due to the enemy having access to the same tools you do, (and the ADC's lack of warding) to set up ganks.

Hellioning1 votes

That's not gonna replace boots. Most supports use mobi boots, anyway. It just seems like power for the sake of power.

Warden Karma3 votes

I just want to fix some problems with the Support role.

Of course some Supports would like to buy item 3117 nevertheless or even item 3009, so I thought about it a litte.

How about reducing the Movementspeed from 15/30/45 to 10/20/30 and to 30/60/90 when out of Combat then? And if you might miss item 1329 Homeguard, well we could put this on top of the Sighstones too^^ Might sound kinda funny, but thinking about this... I think it would be kinda cool to have an "evolving" Item for Supports like this.

It could get some "cool" effect around your Champion too, maybe like a Syndra sphere with the color of your Sightstone, which changes each time you upgrade it?^^

Lil Soybean1 votes

Only problem I have is that I intentionally avoid purchasing support items even as support most of the time because I play poke supports, and spellthief's doesn't feel worth delaying my early core by 300+ gold. (Sightstone, mana, boots.)

In that sense, these favor tank supports more because relic shield and its upgrades iare so incredibly good whereas spellthief's and its upgrades are underwhelming, meaning that you have to buy these mediocre items as poke supports just to get your sightstone now. (Whereas tank supports would have it anyway.)

But that's something to fix with spellthief's, rather than an issue with your idea, right? So your idea still sounds like it could possibly work.

Delioth1 votes

... I'm not sure you realize how much income spellthief's generates...

Here's some math:

Spellthief's generates 2 gold per 10, or 12 gold per minute. Assuming you first back around 8 minutes, that's 96 gold. Not great, but it's a ward if you do a gp-item-upgrade+boots back. Combined with the passive 5 gold/hit every 10 seconds, that could max out at another 5gp/10, or 35 gpm- assuming you hit something Half this often, you end up with ~18 gold per minute, just from spellthief's (and that's only half efficiency from the onhit). At your first back @8, it's given you ~182 gold (Accounting for the 2 minutes you won't be hitting anything). If you do what I do (although I run relic's), you upgrade your gp item and get boots, and pick up a ward or two to keep the lane safe. So now you have the same 2gp/10, only now you get 10 gold every time you hit a champion- every 10 seconds for 60 gpm, and assuming much error pulls down to 30+12gpm, 42 total. In the next 10 minutes, that's 420 gold- so it's not too efficient if you can't hit the enemy. But it spikes to 720 if you can actually hit the enemy like you should, making even just those 10 minutes wildly effective. From there, it just keeps giving back, especially if you pick up the final upgrade to let you kill minions and not have to deactivate the gp passive- lets you waveclear (or just pick up stray minions with AoE) while still getting your monies, along with an active slow and increased passive gp10. It even synergizes with your masteries that give you gp for hitting the enemy for maximum annoyance for profit.

All in all, you really should get it to give yourself some decent income- you don't get minions, after all. It's worth delaying your core by a little bit to get.

Lil Soybean2 votes

{quoted}

... I'm not sure you realize how much income spellthief's generates...

Here's some math:

Spellthief's generates 2 gold per 10, or 12 gold per minute. Assuming you first back around 8 minutes, that's 96 gold. Not great, but it's a ward if you do a gp-item-upgrade+boots back. Combined with the passive 5 gold/hit every 10 seconds, that could max out at another 5gp/10, or 35 gpm- assuming you hit something Half this often, you end up with ~18 gold per minute, just from spellthief's (and that's only half efficiency from the onhit). At your first back @8, it's given you ~182 gold (Accounting for the 2 minutes you won't be hitting anything). If you do what I do (although I run relic's), you upgrade your gp item and get boots, and pick up a ward or two to keep the lane safe. So now you have the same 2gp/10, only now you get 10 gold every time you hit a champion- every 10 seconds for 60 gpm, and assuming much error pulls down to 30+12gpm, 42 total. In the next 10 minutes, that's 420 gold- so it's not too efficient if you can't hit the enemy. But it spikes to 720 if you can actually hit the enemy like you should, making even just those 10 minutes wildly effective. From there, it just keeps giving back, especially if you pick up the final upgrade to let you kill minions and not have to deactivate the gp passive- lets you waveclear (or just pick up stray minions with AoE) while still getting your monies, along with an active slow and increased passive gp10. It even synergizes with your masteries that give you gp for hitting the enemy for maximum annoyance for profit.

All in all, you really should get it to give yourself some decent income- you don't get minions, after all. It's worth delaying your core by a little bit to get.

The problem isn't the potential payout. It's the amount of time it takes to acquire it. For the little amount of gold I accrue early-game, I could dump it all in the support item for later pay-out, or I could get a Tear and be set on mana, which gives me much more map presence and laning threat than the support item. Or I could get boots+a component of sightstone, or a sightstone itself, etc.

It pays off eventually, but by that time, you could have already had more important early-game items.

Granted, it depends on the support you're playing. I play Zilean so the build is kind of nuanced. In particular, I need the Tear ASAP. For supports like Soraka, your baseline effectiveness is probably enough to just go Spellthief's.

Either way, I think the fact that tank supports have been overwhelmingly dominant for a long time suggests that squishy supports are, in general, a little bit undertuned. Or maybe they just have worse itemization, or too-heavy mana costs.

Samflash31 votes

Way too much of a build path.

Just make Sightstone + Tier 2 Support build into an improved sightstone with a passive that varies depending on what the support item does.

Warden Karma1 votes

This would mean, we wouldnt have item 3069 item 3092 or item 3401 (It would be problematic to put their active effects with the active effect of a Sightstone into 1 Item).

Samflash31 votes

Nah don't put the active. Leave their passive features with a sightstone active.

Ruby Sightstone could be constantly regenerating wards.

JustBoneBrook1 votes

Only Support item i find good is item 3361 and item 3302 (not item 3401 or item 3097)

High51 votes

This entire post has a fatal flaw. It assumes supports should be required to buy sightstone.

The issue isn't with supports and sightstone's strength. It's that too many people don't understand the true power of warding.

I always buy sighstone on my supports. Personal preference. I can think of more than a few supports that can ward effectively without them too though.

In any event, vision control is a team activity. The ap mid or adc that only places 2 wards in a match is failing their team and the game in general. Sighstone doesn't need a buff. It's incredibly powerful as is. What the games really needs is a tutorial that teaches players how valuable sightstone, trinkets and vision control in general are.

Vision control may not win a game, but lack of it will certainly lose a game.

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