Q- Decent, although in any full scale team fight is basically useless. The simple slow was better and was aoe. Advantage : Old Q. W- Same old. E- Less time knock up. Nerf. Advantage: Old E. R- Impossible to land. Clunky to re position. Useless to escape, useless without E. Advantage: Old R.
Thanks for destroying a meta champ that was perfectly fine. You suck Riot.
Jbels2 votesWhat are you talking about? I have yet to miss an ult with Zac. Maybe you're just not using it correctly? As for his new Q, useless in a teamfight is an inaccurate description of it. You can tag a champion and then auto a minion for a free displacement on one champion if you can't hit two. His E has so much damn range now that not nerfing the knock up time would be disgusting
Timethief491 votesIsnt the e range the same?
Jbels1 votesIsnt the e range the same?
Yes, but it goes so far that giving him a new CC and not nerfing the knockup time on the current E would have been unfair
PeepingPeafowl1 votesNo it would not, if hes supposed to have a lot of CC as a tank then give him a lot of CC. Its not like he has his damage anymore anyways.
Ralanr1 votesHe has a lot of CC though now that his new Q is hard CC.
PeepingPeafowl1 votesthey nerfed his consistent easy to apply CC and gave him difficult to land situational CC on longer cooldowns.
He does not have a lot of CC
Ralanr1 votesthey nerfed his consistent easy to apply CC and gave him difficult to land situational CC on longer cooldowns.
They made him more difficult to play. Increasing difficulty and skill ceiling was intended.
He does not have a lot of CC
Yes he does. Just because it isn't as easy to land doesn't mean it isn't there.
PeepingPeafowl1 votes{quoted} Yes he does. Just because it isn't as easy to land doesn't mean it isn't there.
If your CC cant hit you don't have it.
I'm running around in the river to gank someone and lee sin or who ever bumps into me on the way
Old Zac - Q him and slow him while getting full damage
New Zac - Q him and get half damage and no CC with a .25 second slow
Old Zac - while hes slowed hit him with E and stun for one second while doing damage, or he uses a moment ability and I can Ult him and he cant get away
New Zac - run away or try and hit him with my E and hope you out predict him or that his movement ability's are on cool down, then if you do hit it get half a second CC
Old Zac - ult him and run him down with damage and CC
New Zac - ult him and watch him flash, use a movement ability or just walk out if I didn't hit him with E, zero damage, zero CC
One of these people had the ability to combo someone and even if they didn't, still get consistent CC and another one cant even use the entirety of one of his abilitys
Who has more CC? Who actually applied the most CC?
In the theoretical sense sure new Zac can in some situations put out more CC, but in reality his CC is much worse in basically every situation outside of a team fight, and that's not what you want when your a jungler.
Ralanr1 votesIf your CC cant hit you don't have it.
You seem to think that unreliable CC isn't CC. So does Sion have no CC to you?
In the theoretical sense sure new Zac can in some situations put out more CC, but in reality his CC is much worse in basically every situation outside of a team fight, and thats not what you want when your a jungler.
Except different junglers offer different things. Some junglers are better for teamfights while others are terrible for teamfights.
Zac is supposed to be good for teamfights. That's the power of tank junglers. He's not supposed to work like Kha'zix or other junglers that excel outside of teamfights.
PeepingPeafowl1 votesYou seem to think that unreliable CC isn't CC. So does Sion have no CC to you?
Are you kidding? E into Q into ult and you get like 2+ seconds of CC. Do you even play him?
You used to be able to do something similar on Zac with Q into E into ult now you cant. Do you see what I'm getting at?
Zac was good in teamfights but he was not bad outside of them and with this rework that is no longer true, and its debatable if hes actually even better in teamfights.
Ralanr1 votesAre you kidding? E into Q into ult and you get like 2+ seconds of CC. Do you even play him?
You don't ult after Q unless it's a guaranteed kill. The only time you combine his ult and Q is to get a full charge after you hit with your ult.
I'm a Sion main. I know his combos.
You used to be able to do something similar on Zac with Q into E into ult on now you cant. Do you see what I'm getting at?
Yeah and I'm telling you that this was intended. Based on your description, it sounds like Zac didn't have weaknesses. Which if that was the case, he has some now.
Zac was good in teamfights but he was not bad outside of them and with this rework that is no longer true, and its debatable if hes actually even better in teamfights.
So he didn't really have a weakness before?
Inkult1 votesZac got nerfed. 1st was the indicator of e. Now they nerfed every single ability.
Zac was BALANCED before. Q was decent, w was decent, e was good but had the indicator. Ultimate was actually the reason to play him, you could actually escape a bad situation, maybe even chase an adc. Now is useless.
PeepingPeafowl1 votes{quoted} I'm a Sion main. I know his combos.
Then don't bullshit me and tell me Sion's CC is unreliable, we both know he has some of the best CC in the game and that you don't even need to hit Q to get people in bad situations.
Yeah and I'm telling you that this was intended.
If its intended its garbage, It doesn't matter to me if they intended for him to be terrible or not and I don't understand why you would care either.
So he didn't really have a weakness before?
So your saying you cant have good team fight and also still be good on your own? Because Sion sure as hell isn't a push over in lane and he still has awesome team fighting.
your acting like Zac was a solo que monster with insanely high win rates, he wasn't he was balanced.
Ralanr1 votesYou act like Zac had no weaknesses.
Tell me some of his old weaknesses that compensated for good solo power.
PeepingPeafowl1 votesRiot has come out and said the the Zac rework is weak by a significant margin
You seem to have something against Zac so I'm just gonna stop replying, I appreciate that you at least tried to have a discussion.
Ralanr1 votesRiot has come out and said the the Zac rework is weak by a significant margin
You seem to have something against Zac so I'm just gonna stop replying, I appreciate that you at least tried to have a discussion.
Dude, I was just asking what old Zac's weakness was. Just because I'm arguing against you doesn't mean I'm against Zac.
Keep thinking like that and you'll have a narrow minded life.
PeepingPeafowl1 votesHis weakness was that everything he did was predictable and CC able, as well as not having the damage output of other junglers or the clear speed as well as having a bad early game.
The only reason I think that your against Zac is because you have ignored every single question I have asked you. It has nothing to do with you disagreeing
Ralanr1 votesHis weakness was that everything he did was predictable and CC able, as well as not having the damage output of other junglers or the clear speed as well as having a bad early game.
Eh, I would agree on his E and his ult. His Q less so but he never maxed it first so it was never an issue.
The only reason I think that your against Zac is because you have ignored every single question I have asked you. It has nothing to do with you disagreeing
Ignore every question? The only question you really asked was one to support your point that if you can't lane you CC then you don't have CC. That's not true, that's like saying if I can shoot a target then I don't have bullets.
Then you say that Sion's CC was more reliable than Zac's CC before the rework. Which I honestly disagree with.
If you asked other questions, sorry I haven't noticed. No offense but you seem too deep in bias to consider any possibility that old Zac might have been too strong (not saying he was, but your arguments seem to give the interpretation that he didn't. Especially in how you could Solo Lee Sin.
Maybe you should be more open with the weaknesses when explaining why someone shouldn't have been reworked instead of saying what was strong that you missed. Because what you missed might be unhealthy.
And for the record, I don't like his rework. His new Q is awkward to use and it pretty pathetic to use in the jungle (and removes a better animation I liked) and his ult range feels much too short for what it is marketed to do.
I don't like the rework, but I don't like how you're arguing against it more.
PeepingPeafowl1 votesLane Zac is really the only one that maxed Q first, and while it cant be CC'ed its generally pretty clear when hes gonna try to hit you with it.
Zac cant solo lee sin, I have no idea where you got that from.
I don't have to consider that old Zac was too strong because he objectively was not, he isn't seen in pro play and the higher up in ranks you go the less and less you see of him because people learn to doge or interrupt the E, ward for him, CC his ult and abuse his early game weakness.
Unless you want to argue that Zac is too good against poor players I have no idea why your bringing that up.
As for the questions I asked you, I asked
"Who has more CC? Who actually applied the most CC?"
you seem to have answered with "That's not true, that's like saying if I can (assume you meant cant) shoot a target then I don't have bullets. "
You cant use your Q for CC solo anymore so a better analogy is giving someone a gun without bullets and then telling them it still serves the same function as a loaded one.
I also asked "You used to be able to do something similar on Zac with Q into E into ult now you cant. Do you see what I'm getting at?"
and to be clear I'm talking about how he used to have good CC that he can combo under most situations and now they have removed that so his CC is worse.
and the last question I asked was "So your saying you cant have good team fight and also still be good on your own?"
because it genuinely seems to me that you think that you cant have good team fight and not be bad outside of them.
Ralanr1 votesLane Zac is really the only one that maxed Q first, and while it cant be CC'ed its generally pretty clear when hes gonna try to hit you with it.
Fair enough
Zac cant solo lee sin, I have no idea where you got that from.
So your entire example of Zac vs Lee Sin in the jungle above wasn't that?
I don't have to consider that old Zac was too strong because he objectively was not, he isn't seen in pro play and the higher up in ranks you go the less and less you see of him because people learn to doge or interrupt the E, ward for him, CC his ult and abuse his early game weakness.
Humility helps gain sympathy which helps people support you.
I don't consider Sion strong but I know enough of his weaknesses to actually explain them to people. Which you have not.
Unless you want to argue that Zac is too good against poor players I have no idea why your bringing that up.
Because it can strengthen your argument. No one is going to agree with someone wanting a champion with no weaknesses in the long run.
As for the questions I asked you I asked
"Who has more CC? Who actually applied the most CC?"
you seem to have answered with "That's not true, that's like saying if I can (assume you meant cant) shoot a target then I don't have bullets. "
You cant use your Q for CC solo anymore so a better analogy is giving someone a gun without bullets and then telling them it still serves the same function as a loaded one.
No that's just twisting it in your favor. A better analogy would be to give someone a revolver when they are used to a glock. It still shoots bullets but not in a way you're comfortable with.
Zac still has CC. You missing it doesn't change that.
I also asked "You used to be able to do something similar on Zac with Q into E into ult now you cant. Do you see what I'm getting at?"
I don't remember this question.
and to be clear I'm talking about how he used to have good CC that he can combo under most situations and now they have removed that so his CC is worse.
Again, they intended to make it more unreliable to allow more counterplay and skill expression. I don't agree with all of it.
and the last question I asked was "So your saying you cant have good team fight and also still be good on your own?"
because it genuinely seems to me that you think that you cant have good team fight and not be bad outside of them.
That is generally how tanks (hell, how a lot of people are balanced) are balanced. More effective in teamfights or solo?
PeepingPeafowl1 votes"So your entire example of Zac vs Lee Sin in the jungle above wasn't that?"
No it was an example of how his CC is worse, I mean I literally only talked about his CC combo's in that post and how you could replace lee sin with any other jungler
"I'm running around in the river to gank someone and lee sin or who ever bumps into me on the way".
Lee sin Shits on Zac and every other tank jungler with the possible exception of rammus, and even then he can just run away.
You asked what his weakness were and I told you, I have no idea why you are acting like I'm saying he has no weakness
"No that's just twisting it in your favor" no it isn't, he cannot get the second Q proc in a 1v1. That is CC that he can not have anymore, it is exactly like having an empty gun. It holds the possibility of shooting but it cannot.
"I don't remember this question." ok? Its a direct quote, not sure why you wrote this
"That is generally how tanks (hell, how a lot of people are balanced) are balanced. More effective in teamfights or solo?"
This is exactly what I'm saying, Zac was "More effective" in team fights while also not being terrible in duels, this is no longer the case.
Thankfully they are restoring his damage on E and the Zac dev wants to add max Hp damage scaling on his Q similar to tahm kench so I'm feeling better about his damage coming back. Now to wait on the CC buffs.
Nahui1 votesThe point of the rework wasn't to make him better, it was to fix boring parts of the kit on top of stuff that wasn't too interactive in the first place.
Inkult1 votesUltimate is not even remotely useful as it was. Old ultimate you would do a double knock up when landing, chasing and zoning carries, escaping or simply making more dmg. New one, is trash.
New Zac ultimate is less powerful than a maokai Q pretty much. The re position of the enemy team, unless they are autistic or you have ANOTHER TANK engaging them, is simply, useless.