Last hitting with Auto Attacks

Hazardus ducees··1 votes·1,219 views

As the game progresses with things becoming more stabilized, I can't quite help point out a few things that, well... need something. I'm not sure how to find a proficient answer to this, but I will try to explain the problem for newbies and of the unknowledgeable to those who are trying to learn the slot. Now get mad at me all you want, but I've played quite a bit of champions of all varieties lately and I've noticed something league might want to take a gander at. We love em! We hate em! Let's talk about Marksmen and their ability to farm!

I've realized that during additional development it has grown to become harder to farm for a marksmen compared to what it used to be within the past. For the time being, a lot of players go early champions like Draven, Lucian, and Miss Fortune because they can abuse levels 1-6 against their opponent by constantly pushing their wave under enemy tower as well as having stable last hit damage for minion gold. Champions like Mid game champions like Ezreal, Kai'Sa, Kog'ma, and Varus, don't seem to have too much of an issue because their abilities are built for that kind of abuse, sustain and spike/damage. Though... aside from Champions like Vayne and Jhin who can use an ability to last hit better, marksmen who's kit revolves around Critical damage suffer from losing out on an insane amount of minions when pushed under tower or just simply pressured with wave control. (And lets just say that your support isn't allowed to touch the minions.) The thing is, critical users such as Caitlyn for an example, can't last hit minions as well when forced under tower or making sure your Attacks hit when necessary. In fact, critical marksmen have to pay so close attention to last hitting the minion that your "projectile" has to already be fired the split moment the minion strikes near because they can't attack fast enough or that their projectile don't move fast enough upon each auto.

Now to be clear, I know the technique when it comes to taking down the wave and it is very difficult to do with all of the pressure that exists. Almost always you will end up sacrificing close to 5 minions if your support is incompetent or you're not on the same rhythm as the game is. Additionally, this adds a negative status to new players which don't know a whole lot to the game; It fights against the casual gamer experience. To nail down to it, all I am saying is that a simple +__ damage or faster projectile speed to critical marksmen users is needed when undertower so they can properly last hit without having to stand right in front of the minion just to be the one who deals the final blow. There is either that, or maybe you could strip the minions of their armor and magic resistance. I don't see why minions even have it in the first place since minion's damage and hp scales harder than it used to in the past and they are there particularly for growing gold and essentially safeguarding.

I know this may sound like a biased approach or opinion, but if you look to each and every other lane, you see that top laners have the ability to clean-kill caster minions after first tower shot and sacrifice little to nothing when it comes to their ability sets. Midlane users can sustain mana cost and use their abilities to clean wave, efficiently last hitting all forms of minions under tower (I'm not saying vladimir is easy though). Junglers normally don't have to constantly sacrifice or contend with any of their CS gold being randomly removed from an automated source, even if the lane has been nerfed/balanced pretty hard. It is very hard to take backrow minions as a marksmen because they have to contend with an additional teammate that shares XP and 2 enemies which throw out a lot of competition while also losing out on level differences which would make it so you could take the caster minions after the first initial towershot.

As always, I'm interested in your opinion.

4 Comments

Chainman31 votes

I mean farming under tower is a skill and mechanic and also a strategy to deny your opponent cs/ lane control. You’re basically asking to remove that skill from the game because you feel it isn’t balanced. Well if that’s the case I don’t feel it’s balanced as a caster that I have to wait 4 seconds in the late game to get my burst out while the adc can output constant high loads of damage with just auto attacks even while scaling their abilities up to do dmg. Since you used Caitlyn as an example I’ll carry on from that. She’s allowed to E > Q and still be in range of her auto while slowing me which can do upwards to around 1k-1.2k dmg to a caster. Does that seem like constant dps or burst? And even after that she puts out 3-4 autos of 400-600 dmg every 2 seconds without even getting in range of me because she has a 750 range. So where her range has drawbacks it also has benefits and if the projectile speed is that big of an issue you could always walk closer to the minion so the projectile doesn’t be have to travel as far even to the point you’re in melee range of the minion. At the end of the day tho farming under tower is a skill and most players should know how to do it regardless of the champion they’re playing. Btw the thing you’re complaining about with top and mid laners clearing wave adcs can also clear the back line with 1 ability as long as you know how to set up the wave. If a mid laner fails to set up a wave before it crashes into tower they’re at risk for losing majority of the cs where as an adc can still salvage some of the minions

Hazardus ducees1 votes

Hold up. Your biased perspective is showing. While I do believe that you should be able to deny your opponent from cs, you must realize that this is not a tactic and more or less a poor mechanic that the game has. The fact that under tower farming exists means that being pushed under tower isn't a "strategic mechanic" at all. Playing bottom lane as a marksmen, you can deny your opponent CS by shoving the lane under tower ONCE the enemy has recalled. This is how you utilize "shoving a minion wave" correctly. That is just simple example, but as a marksmen wave management should be your only job while your support partner is the one who will constantly find ways to interrupt the enemy. In fact, the supports do this job very well- almost too well and "knowing your place" isn't a bad thing either.

Relating to your personal matter, a crit marksman will not do the damage you're describing if this is in a teamfight under 25-30 minutes. While a crit marksman is typically under 2k HP, have little to no resistive stats, and are less mobile than most, you as a "burst mage" have a kit designed to get in, out, and combo your damage with minimal effort under a 0.5 second span while a marksman will have to auto you over 5 seconds to take you down. Yes, you will have to wait to use your ability again because you possibly missed your skill shot from prediction. That is a good game mechanic because both parties are able to manipulate their realities. Remember, a champion's auto attack is only as fast as the clock multiplied by their "attack speed" without the acception of RageBlade. So of course, if they have 2.00AS they should essentially be hitting you 2 times per second. Most of the times, a marksmen will have near 1.75AS with 230AD. If you're there for a good 5 seconds, a marksmen can put out 2012.5 damage exempting things like if they have any other items that grant additional factors. Now, although this may seem like a high number, you have to also remember that everyone else also has resistances which apply for each auto attack. So if they were able to hit you 10 times for 5 seconds and you had a resistance of 120 armor, then you'll be receiving only 812 damage throughout that time period excluding other sources of damage. I'd say that this is pretty unbalanced and not in favor of the champion who has extremely high stakes. But this is why a marksman is allowed to crit. by 20 minutes in, they'll have about 60% of critical damage.

First before we dive deep into the crit mechanics, let's explain how it works- or at least the basics of how it should work. In a perfect world of "chance" code, a percentage of "X" should mean that something happens after a "Y" amount of times. For example. 25% would mean 1/4. Or crit 1 time every 4 auto attacks. League's script is not a perfect script otherwise counting crit damage would be predictable like Jhin's 4th shot. With league, they have a random factor found within their code that makes it much harder to predict when someone will crit. On the other hand, 100% will mean that every auto will always crit. The problem with Critical strike in this patch is that those characters who build it are forced to have 4 items for 100% and are most likely unable to own all 4 due to making them an absolute "glass cannon" until they buy a sustain item. The build possibilities can easily be summed up as 2 damage items (item 3508 item 3031 ) and 4 possible speed items (item 3085 item 3046(item 3094 item 3087). Particularly looking at the damage items, combined they only grant 170 damage (excluding passives) while the speed items can range from granting a gain of 100% or 110%.

Like look, I get it. You're mad that someone can do a lot of damage with assistance while you can only do so much within a special period of time.

Chainman31 votes

I was waiting for your point about farming under tower but if you want to go this route we can do so.

Ill explain how coding crit works. You have a crit rate lets say 60% every time you auto the system generates a random number between 1-100 if it generates a number lower than or equal to your crit rate you crit if the number is larger you dont. This is why reaching 75-80% crit rate is optimal and building more crit rate is actually less efficient than building more dmg.

Now there are trade-offs to shoving the wave which you labeled as a poor mechanic. It isnt poor because it generates both pressure and allows you to harass your opponent without the risk of them harassing back because they'd miss farm, on the opposite side it opens the pushing lane to ganks while the team shoved in is more or less safe from anything besides a dive. It also allows the lane shoved in to all in while the opposing lane cant because the protection of the tower.

Now a crit marksman will do the dmg im describing and heres why. 3 items in which is around 8k-10k gold an adc has around 75% crit rate. Because of IE's passive the crit dmg is buffed to 2.25 times the dmg. Meaning these autos are now doing 450 dmg per hit now with the energized shot from 850 units away which also adds around 100 dmg at level 12 increasing with level. And it can also crit amplifying it to 225 dmg. Now when you take that into consideration with bloodline and overheal. Not only is the adc allowed to hit from out of range for about 400 dmg applying resistances, but this also goes against what you were saying as "Yes, you will have to wait to use your ability again because you possibly missed your skill shot from prediction. That is a good game mechanic because both parties are able to manipulate their realities" I cant dodge this and its a really long range and i have no say in manipulating it besides "stay out of range" which could be applied to anything. And this is without casting the adc's abilities at all. Caitlyn's headshot off her W increases her dmg by 240+ any bonus ad she has. Which is added on top of her already empowering +100% of her AD at level 13. This is upwards to 400 dmg just on the headshot without the auto's dmg. When adding in the auto's 400 dmg you're looking at around 600-700 dmg after resistances applied. And her Q dmg is sitting at 210 + 170% of her AD. with 200 AD you're looking at 210+340 = 550 dmg on her Q which can be cast during her E animation which deals 70 magic dmg. Thats around 400 dmg right there after resistances and it enables a headshot too. So lets look at this. with 200 AD. A caitlyn that hits trap into Auto(w headshot) > E > Q > Auto(E headshot) with rapid fire proc is doing roughly:

Auto dmg with crit: 450 Headshot dmg: 100% of herr ad = 200 amplified W headshot dmg: 200+240+100% bonus ad(14+70+8 ad +6 ad) = 538
E dmg: 70 Q dmg: 550 Rapid fire proc = 225

Total: 450+200+538+70+550+450+200+225 = 2683 Apply resistances assuming 110 arrmor (52% reduction) = 1288 dmg without coup de grace or the infinity edge additional dmg on headshot. 1288 dmg at level 13 on an adc in around 1.5 seconds on a champion with 110 armor. You're gonna tell me this doesnt compare to burst characters? Thats almost an entire health bar of a charracter who built armor at level 13 and caitlyn still gets to deal 400-600 dmg per auto while waiting for her cooldowns from 650 units away. And you're saying this is fair but farming under tower isnt fair?

MagicFlyingLlama1 votes

What ADCS dont fulfill those requirements?

Ashe, i guess?

Jinx Kalista Lucian all have ways of dealing mana-efficient burst damage to CS.

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