Zhonya's Hourglass
Recipe Change: Seeker's Armguard + Fiendish Codex + 900 Gold = 3000 Total Gold Total Cost: 3500 --> 3000 Ability Power: 100 --> 70 lol wtf Armor: Unchanged Cooldown Reduction: 0 --> 10% Active Stasis Cooldown: 90 --> 120
I seriously hope these changes don't go through, this item is absolutely useless now
Vistha Kai15 votesRioter 1: Are ADs still a problem? Rioter 2: Yes. Rioter 1: So what do we do about it? Rioter 3: Let's nerf Zhonya. All Rioters in the room: GENIUS!
I guess I'll buy fucking Rylai's instead.
Vhalthoria1 votes[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rjEFIXud,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-04-07T14:43:52.566+0000)
Rioter 1: Are ADs still a problem? Rioter 2: Yes. Rioter 1: So what do we do about it? Rioter 3: Let's nerf Zhonya. All Rioters in the room: GENIUS!
I guess I'll buy fucking Rylai's instead.
What does the nerf have to do with ADs?
SnugglePuggle944 votesBecause ADs, like Zed, can now ult more than once in the timespan that the Zhonya's active is on CD, and can just laugh at our shitty damage because the AP was nerfed on it too along with many other items that had damage taken out too.
Vhalthoria2 votesBecause ADs, like Zed, can now ult more than once in the timespan that the Zhonya's active is on CD
It just mean you need to make it count from now on.
, and can just laugh at our shitty damage because the AP was nerfed on it too along with many other items that had damage taken out too.
Since you are picking Zed as an example. Why do you need so much AP to burst him down? Maw of Malmortius was nerfed as well recently. I call itemization even.
On another note, It gives 10% CDR to compensate which imo makes your damage output the same and if not better due to having your ult and spells ready more often.
Lastly, it is drastically cheaper which is definitely good if you intend to rush it. Imo this item was a bit to strong. Massive AP, superb Armor, and low Cooldown passive which was even stronger in it's early days.
I call it a balance tweak rather than a straight up nerf.
SnugglePuggle947 votesIt just mean you need to make it count from now on.
It gives 10% CDR to compensate which imo makes your damage output the same and if not better due to having your ult and spells ready more often.
Lastly, it is drastically cheaper which is definitely good if you intend to rush it. Imo this item was a bit to strong. Massive AP, superb Armor, and low Cooldown passive which was even stronger in it's early days.
I call it a balance tweak rather than a straight up nerf.
Lol no. Even with CDR, we can't do damage because we have no mana. And we can't get mana items until we get our Zhonya's or else we are dead. See the point?
It wasn't too strong. Maw is too strong. Zhonya's was drastically expensive, the AP had already been nerfed on it (it was 120, then down to 100. Now it's down to 70). The armor was 50 and was nerfed to what it is now. It just delays our death for a mere 2.5 seconds, and even then it doesn't save us every time.
It's a straight up nerf. Stop denying it to yourself and get your head out of your butt.
Vhalthoria2 votesLol no. Even with CDR, we can't do damage because we have no mana. And we can't get mana items until we get our Zhonya's or else we are dead. See the point?
It wasn't too strong. Maw is too strong. Zhonya's was drastically expensive, the AP had already been nerfed on it (it was 120, then down to 100. Now it's down to 70). The armor was 50 and was nerfed to what it is now. It just delays our death for a mere 2.5 seconds, and even then it doesn't save us every time.
It's a straight up nerf. Stop denying it to yourself and get your head out of your butt.
No mana? That means you like going wild with your mana management. If that's the case then the fault is on you, not the game. You make it seem like the overall course of the game is determined on a single item and that's just plain wrong. But again, you haven't answered my question. Why do you need so much AP to burst down a squishy target? Aren't sure about your skills?
No offense but I think the one with his head in his butt here is you, buddy.
SnugglePuggle948 votesWow. You are ridiculous.
I manage my mana quite fine, thank you very much. But early game when we don't get a regen item first because we have to rush Zhonya's for defense, our spells cost a shit ton early, and we can't be using them to farm either or else we waste it that much more.
Anyhow, you need AP to be able to do significant damage to all the tanks, bruisers, and assassins now a days. Just a little will help you kill a squishy, but you need more to be able to burst more tanky champions.
I am sure about my skills. I just don't like the itemization.
And yes, I did take offense because you insulted my skills and said it was my fault.
Don't be a bully and get your head out of your butt, because you are the one with it in there.
Vhalthoria1 votesWow. You are ridiculous.
I manage my mana quite fine, thank you very much. But early game when we don't get a regen item first because we have to rush Zhonya's for defense, our spells cost a shit ton early, and we can't be using them to farm either or else we waste it that much more.
Anyhow, you need AP to be able to do significant damage to all the tanks, bruisers, and assassins now a days. Just a little will help you kill a squishy, but you need more to be able to burst more tanky champions.
I am sure about my skills. I just don't like the itemization.
And yes, I did take offense because you insulted my skills and said it was my fault.
Don't be a bully and get your head out of your butt, because you are the one with it in there.
You feel insulted yet you start with the head in butt comments lol. I'm bullying no one here, calm your panties friend. I'm just giving my opinion on why people are overreacting to these changes.
SnugglePuggle942 votesI wasn't using it as to be a bully, I said it because you act like you have your head stuck and talk like it. Anyway, people are reacting because they see how bad it's going to affect their favorite champions.
Vhalthoria1 votesI wasn't using it as to be a bully, I said it because you act like you have your head stuck and talk like it. Anyway, people are reacting because they see how bad it's going to affect their favorite champions.
I witnessed Riot killing my main champion. You guys will get used to it. Trust me.
SnugglePuggle942 votesThey nerfed our items when they pushed out the marksmen update. Now they are doing it again. I will not get used to it, in fact I'm probably going to leave the game if all these changes go live.
Forn ala creme2 votesBye then! [slayer-jinx-catface]
Rook Loux1 votesSavage lol
Forn ala creme1 votesSeriously though, why do people keep throwing that statement around? We (the community) couldn't be less bothered.
Arakadia1 votesThat doesn't mean its ok. Nor does it mean we can't fix it.
Rook Loux1 votesAnyhow, you need AP to be able to do significant damage to all the tanks, bruisers, and assassins now a days. Just a little will help you kill a squishy, but you need more to be able to burst more tanky champions.
They're called tanks for a reason dude. You shouldn't be able to "burst" a tank
SnugglePuggle942 votesDude I know you can't burst one, but for whatever stupid or illogical reason you are fighting one, you need more ap and mpen.
Vistha Kai11 votesBecause AP mages despite being weaker than ADs are still getting item nerfs?
Duh.
Vhalthoria3 votes[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rjEFIXud,comment-id=000200000001,timestamp=2016-04-07T15:42:54.752+0000)
Because AP mages despite being weaker than ADs are still getting item nerfs?
Duh.
Still doesn't answer my question and in fact what if Riot did it because they thought having a massive AP boost + lot's of Armor + frequent Active counter to everything was slightly unfair? You still get nice amount of AP, Armor stat wasn't touched which drove me into asking the question in the first place, and the active is still there.
Imo the nerfs aren't that bad. You get CDR which means you will be able to cast spells more often and/or could mean a slightly bigger damage output. Plus the item is drastically more cheaper now which imo is great if you intend to rush it. I call it a balancing change rather than straight up nerf.
Vistha Kai4 votesFrequent? Maybe. Active? Yes. Counter? Hell no.
In 90%+ cases it isn't not a counter. It's delaying your own death.
CDR means crap, because the item lost a lot of slot efficiency. Not only the active isn't reliable, it's stats are so bad RIGHT NOW there are much better and cheaper offensive, deffensive and hybrid options.
SladeXD3 votesBecause ADs have plenty of protection against mages and they're nerfing the mages only protection against AD champs. right now ADs are massively favored for wins because they can quite easily survive a mages burst so you have to pick an AD mid/jungle to take them out. Mages are currently being outclassed by most champs. Only the ones with high base damages are staying in favor mostly because you can build them tank(Ekko/Elise etc.). That's why some had to move out of mid to survive and some out of play completely.
Çhåryzård3 votesWhat does the nerf have to do with ADs?
Zhonyas' primary function was to protect you from AD burst (and it also protected you from stuff like Fizz ult, Karth ult, Vlad, etc).
If Zed can ult you multiple times before your zhonyas cooldown is up, it isn't doing its job. With the new longer cooldown, you can get ulted more than once now instead of having a chance at protecting yourself.
They ruined Zhonyas to the point where it can't do what it was primarily made to do. If you want CDR, there are other items that give you way more CDR. Slapping a measely 10% onto it and using it as an excuse to nerf the damage and raise the cooldown is stupid, especially now that the item can't protect you from that AD burst anymore.
63536895_DEL1 votesYou said that like it's 
fault. Meanie, you made 
Çhåryzård13 votesWait..what?? Why would you take away a good chunk of its damage and then increase the cooldown?
Vistha Kai15 votesBecause AD overlords can't burst mages down in 0.5 second.
Arakadia1 votesThe overlord of all overlords is probably: The AD Tank Assassin Champion with 3 dashes, an untarget, and execute ult, named Tencent.
Llanite1 votesAnd make it cheaper, meaning you can have it earlier.
WoonStruck5 votesOld active value to make the item gold efficient: 425
New (nerfed) active value to make the item gold efficient: 277.
However, the slot-efficiency has gone way down.
While the item wasn't nerfed in gold efficiency, it was hardly buffed in exchange for taking away ~15% of its overall power.
If they want it to be a utility item, they should go all the way with it so supports can pick it up too.
It needs a passive, way more armor, or HP to be worth picking up now, and its a kick in the teeth to anyone Zhonya's was core on.
At least before I could delay it until 5th/6th item slot, but it still made a difference...
Arakadia1 votesIt needs a passive, way more armor, or HP to be worth picking up now, and its a kick in the teeth to anyone Zhonya's was core on.
Poor fiddle...
Cremepie5 votesThis is just nonsense. They should have just added the 10% CDR and left the rest the same, THEN IT WOULD FINALLY BE AT A JUSTIFIABLE PRICE. The stasis should not cost 1050 gold by its self.
LankPants2 votesI'd say add the 10% then drop it to 3300. Hourglass is the most overpriced item in the game right now. The only other item that's close to as overpriced as it is Deathcap.
Oleandervine5 votesI don't see this as a nerf since you can obtain the item way easier and earlier than before, plus, it grants CDR now. It will help a lot of champs out, I think.
Vhalthoria2 votesI don't see this as a nerf since you can obtain the item way easier and earlier than before, plus, it grants CDR now. It will help a lot of champs out, I think.
Agreed.
WyldeFyres3 votesObtaining it earlier doesn't matter when it's worthless. People build zhonyas to prevent AD burst. If the CD is so high that, as so many others have said, Zed can ult you again before it comes off cooldown, it isn't doing the one job it needs to do. It having AP on it also made it a viable rush item, so that you could itemize against Zed's burst without being totally useless in lane.
Nerfing the active means you probably won't even bother buying it anymore because it can't do it's job, and even if you still did decide to buy it, congratulations, you just spent 3000 gold to maybe prevent yourself from dying once every two minutes, while you do no damage.
CDR, especially 10% CDR, is not anywhere good enough to justify the nerf. CDR doesn't even belong on Zhonyas, an item you want to have decent armor, decent AP and a useful active. Also, if these changes go through, most midlane mages will lose access to mana regen, and a lot of mid items will lose AP as well. Guess what? CDR might mean you can spam spells out more, but good luck trying when you need more rotations to do the same damage you do right now, while using more mana that you can't regen because your items don't have regen anymore.
Quepha4 votesEasier build path Cheaper total cost so you get the active earlier More gold efficient The mix of stats better favors the strategy you're going for when you're looking to build a Zhonya's.
Other than the cooldown, everything here looks like a buff to me.
Asyde3 votesFirst of all, remember that these are PBE concepts. They will test them and many changes will likely get reverted.
It is easy to pick apart each item and see it as a nerf. But RIOT is looking at item builds holistically; What they provide, what the build paths look like, and the intended uses for each item. If you look at the new AP item ecosystem, I think its really a buff.
Mages have been in a poor place itemization wise for quite a while now, and we've learned to cope with more powerful champions by relying too heavily on specific niche items (aka zhonyas). Some of these items were never intended to be your go-to item for ever single game, but rather a more situational items. Rather than doubling down on niche items RIOT is trying to solve the root problems for mages. Lack of overall Mana (having to build MP5 in order to cope), Poor CDR build paths (not having your spells up frequently enough to deal with these champs), and lack of mobility options to be able to avoid damage and or counterplay. Rather than being a big ball of AP with limited ability to counterplay (other than blow their shit up), they are taking off some of the AP to compensate you with more skirmishing options.
Now, Granted, they've already identified some of these changes are very experimental and will likely be changed. Don't get too focused on the actual numbers right now, focus on the fundamental shift they are pushing for. Slightly less AP and MP5 for more Mana, better build paths, more cdr, potentially more mobility.
MrWasjig3 votesFirst of all, remember that these are PBE concepts. They will test them and many changes will likely get reverted.
Rarely has this actually been the case.
YOLO420SWAGSCOPE2 votesnerfs zed, but then also nerfs the one item that can counter him great
LostSoul6662 votesjesus you might as well just buy a fucking 
now.
Keti1 votespeople were crying hourglass was too expensive so they made it cheaper. people were crying that CDR was too hard to come by so they added it to more items. What were people expecting they just slap CDR on items while reducing the cost at the same time and having items not compensate for it at all?
LankPants1 votesHave you seen Essence Reaver? That is what APs are competing with. It has premium AD, it gives infinite mana and it caps CDR basically by itself. Riot could have slapped CDR on Zhonya's and dropped its price by a little and it still would be a worse CDR option.
Keti1 votesCDR on a mage and CDR on an ADC stacking crit are apples and oranges. There's much less damage and little to no utility attached to an ADCs buttons, this is why riot let them get CDR easier, as it is less valuable.
PiVoRx1 votesAs long as this stupid active exists, this item is still cancer. It needs cooldown at least same as GA passive.
Catastrop2 votesI don't know why they didn't take this opportunity to just replace the item completely in the first place. I'm quite sure they could have come with healthier alternatives.
IcyPepper1 votesI know this isn't a popular opinion, but zhonyas is often used as a band aid for larger balance issues.
By changing it into defensive utility item (apparently one of the strongest defensive actives shouldn't be on a big ticket AP item), it'll hopefully force them to properly balance the interaction between AP and AD.
And maybe they'll, tone down Maw's defensive power, along with a few others if they decide to take that route.
My main gripe is that they introduced more cdr, but not a lot of magic penetration. I see what they're trying to do, but not every AP champion needs a huge mana pool and little else.
Magneto811 votesThe main issue seems to be that the item is not slot efficient. Why doesn't RIOT just make this item upgradeable even further so you can eventually get your 120AP on it, or have it's AP improve over time like ROA? I agree - when I see AP items with 70 or 80 AP I feel really bad because ratios on AP are usually around the 80% range, but champ ratios on AD are often 100/125%..
