It's kind of cancerous playing against an eve or twitch for example, and having 0 freaking room for a pink. Better avoid using up that 3k gold as an adc to keep that slot open for a pink!! can't have twitch sneak behind you and three shot your entire backline......
Malignant Vemira36 votesYeah, I want the 250g Yellow trinket back. So I can ACTUALLY ward against ganks. Better buy a sight stone as a non tank mid/top/adc. Logic. Blue trinket is garbage after they increased cd, and reduced the vision range as well.
1 800 MID LANE17 votesAt this point, I'd pay twice that if it meant I could more accessibility to vision.
maikokk4 votesya if 
was on the rift for 500 next to the other consumables id buy it some games
Battlecast Sona3 votesit used to be, and it turned out it was just a 500g gold sink for the support every time they died so they removed it. Oracle's Elixir was an SR item first but since it reveals sight wards it became necessary for every support to pick it up all the time, and supports already had no options for gold gen and had to purchase each ward individually at the time so it was considered kinda silly.
I think perhaps a version that didn't work on wards might be okay, but oracle's elixir that reveals wards is completely toxic to SR.
RainbowIcee1 votesit doesnt matter if its a gold sink i rather have it than not. Its up to the player to buy it or not and god forbit if i didnt buy it every game but it makes finding wards such a trivial task so it makes the game a lot harder for the losing team. However they can just make an oracles that detects cloaked champions and their abilities but not wards.
IcyPepper2 votesIts up to the player to buy it
People say that about sightstone, but I'm almost 100% sure if there was another nigh mandatory vision item, the support would be threatened with reports if they didn't sink gold into it.
I'm not a fan of turning the support role into a vision bot. They should be able to play the game too.
RainbowIcee1 votesvision wards are great, i dont regret buying it. I even get it playing jungle some times. I do however feel like the item could be improved somehow. The sightstone itself is my least favorite warding item, the other 3 buildups from the gold items are much better the only down side is that their default gold item build is more often than not more useful and you cant have both. But the sightstone is pretty meh if i had other choices i would take it over it for vision items, and the trinkets althought extremelly useful dont last as long. I wish we still had the ward trinket upgrades.
Nekitha10 votesThe thing is, before the vision changes, stealth champions like Rengar, Evelynn, Twitch, etc. would lose way too much to something as cheap as a pink ward. Like, a huge part of their kit would be countered by simply placing down a ward and there wasn't anything they could do against it.
That lead to the stealth champions needing to be a bit overtuned to make up for the fact that a part of their kit would be completely countered late game. You could see just how strong Rengar was right after true sight stopped pestering him.
By leaving pink wards as the only source of true vision, Riot allows you to bypass a part of the stealth champion's kit only for a limited time, this ensured that come late game, every champions could use the entirety of their kit.
The thing is, stealth causes a lot of frustration, champions in stealth get to choose their fights and they adopt a more opportunistic playstyle which can leave their opponents feeling cheated, but that's just the way stealth works.
Also, it's not all bad, by the time you run out of slots for pinks, it's already time for your team to group meaning that stealth champions have a harder time getting to the backline.
AninLegions7771 votes
Hard 
Time 
Getting 
To 
Your 
Backline?
Slamurai Jack7 votesYou want to auto hard counter stealth champs late game? Then give up an item for it as a support. I very highly doubt that final item will do more for your team than keeping that Twitch/Kha/Rengar/Vayne/Akali/etc. visible will.
Battlecast Sona10 votesit's not good counterplay to a mechanic to tell someone "depend on your other teammates to carry a pink for you".
it's definitely not good counterplay to say "don't build your final item to carry that pink ward", because it makes you weaker against literally everyone (including the assassin). That's the main problem with stealth counters right now - available stealth counters without utilizing an item slot are pretty worthless.
Slamurai Jack17 votes[{quoted}](name=Battlecast Janna,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=reWMOn4A,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-07-18T18:07:12.551+0000) available stealth counters without utilizing an item slot are pretty worthless.
As they SHOULD be. Hard countering stealth champions late game without making any meaningful sacrifices was bullshit and it's about time Riot corrected that problem. You want to hard counter a mechanic that certain champs rely on to function optimally? Then you give up an item slot. It was stupid that you didn't have to do that until just this season.
Shinjusuke4 votespreach. Funny how people bitch and moan when their champion mechanism is trashed by a single item, even if that mechanism isn't crucial to the champion's gameplay, but as soon as you have to ACTUALLY do something about an assassin the boards go all
"HOLY SHIT THIS IS SO UNFAIR WHY CAN'T I JUST BUILD MY MOBAFIRE SHIT"
Battlecast Sona3 votesbecause he totally responded to what I said (that there need to be non-item based stealth counters) as a call for free stealth counters, which isn't what I said.
Introducing meaningful stealth gameplay that isn't binary (either they have a pink ward in their inventory and I'm fucked or they don't and I can do whatever I want) is healthy for both parties of the game, because the hard counter goes away in favor of soft counters that allow me to play around your stealth rather than forcing me into keeping an item slot open to counter you, which gives you opportunities to actually outplay and counter my GAMEPLAY rather than just "I have to kill this pink ward/their team before I die".
The day that you have to keep an item slot open to counter Sona's Crescendo or Janna's Monsoon is the day that I'll feel its appropriate for me to have to keep an item slot open to counter stealth.
AninLegions7773 votesUhh mate, do we play the same game? Back when you could upgrade yellow trinket to pink, stealth champs were still strong AF. It wasn't a "Hard Counter". Also your argument is lame. You say we should make sacrifices to counter stealth champs but do stealth champs make sacrifices to have their invisibilty? Err no. Vayne's ult allows her to be invisible when she Q's for 1 second. She can easily kill a target/targets since they can't predict ABSOLUTELY where she will appear. Fair? Nope. Eve can stealth for the WHOLE fcking game if she has to. One moment you survived a duel with 100 HP, next moment you get wasted by a purple smudge on the screen. Fair? Nope. I'll skip the others and go to my personal worst offender, Twitch. Twitch goes invisible for 8 BLOODY SECONDS. Comes out of it with a massive AS steroid. Fair? ABSOLUTELY FCKING NOT! These champs I mentioned and many others, don't sacrifice anything for the MASSIVE advantage that is stealth. So please, don't say giving champs an upgrade to a pink that can only be used every 60 seconds is a "Hard Counter". It's not. It gives them a fighting chance. In the case of Rengar tho, you don't know the direction he's coming in, and his leap range is insane. So chances are, before you even place the pink, you're dead. Now try to counter my argument. [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]
Slamurai Jack1 votes{quoted} You say we should make sacrifices to counter stealth champs but do stealth champs make sacrifices to have their invisibilty?
What.
AninLegions7771 votesYou don't understand or ... ?
MohawkBird2 votesI agree with your point on Stealth champions still being very viable even though pinks were accessible. People seem to over exaggerate their impact, without realizing that, more often than not, stealth champions have already done their jobs by the time they are within range of the pink ward.
The only champs I can see pinks hard countering, and I mean hard-countering, are Akalim Talon and Vayne. Akali because you know exactly where she is when she is stealthed, essentially making that ability useless, and Vayne because her dash is very short ranged so she won't be out of range of the pink anytime soon. Talon because he is immobile so when he gets caught he will likely be dead.
Aeszarck2 votes[{quoted}](name=Battlecast Janna,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=reWMOn4A,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-07-18T18:07:12.551+0000)
- it's definitely not good counterplay to say "don't build your final item to carry that pink ward", because it makes you weaker against literally everyone (including the assassin). That's the main problem with stealth counters right now - available stealth counters without utilizing an item slot are pretty worthless.
I'm pretty sure that the supports during the C9 vs. APX game weren't buying their final items to hold Vision Wards, despite there being no stealth champions on the enemy team.
EDIT: http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/TRLH1/1001770287?gameHash=5ec4a8e3395bf1e5&tab=stats&participant=10 Match history if you don't believe me.
Battlecast Sona2 votesHmm, it could be something to do with the fact that their team made the call to value pinks over that last item slot.
This is entirely and totally different from "you MUST keep an item slot open for a pink ward to counter stealth".
Additionally, just because they did it in pro play doesn't mean it's good gameplay by any stretch of the imagination - the supports keeping their item slots open for pinks probably didn't feel very GOOD about doing that, but it was necessary to have that vision. It highlights the problem more than excusing it that supports in pro games don't even get to finish their item builds because they have to keep slots open to pink the map... So I don't really understand your point.
Like, "pros did it" does not mean it's good or compelling gameplay. It doesn't mean the game mechanic is good that forced them to do that - just means they had a higher chance of winning (or felt they did) by keeping pinks on the map, which is probably true. I don't think it's right that you have to choose between finishing your build or having pinks though, especially because these kinds of problems are exactly with items like Sightstone were introduced to prevent.
General Esdeath 5 votesBecause Riot's dumb as shit. Not enough people used it therefore it's bad. Did you guys hear, not enough people play 
correctly so they're removing him.
OokamiNoSora2 votesI was once a malz main until the rework now I dont touch him anymore.
General Esdeath 2 votesI miss old Malz
SanKakU5 votesHow about a gold income item that gives you a pink ward?
DrugsForRobots4 votes
is part of the problem. Having the ability (for 75g or FREE) to drop a massive AoE of True Sight at instant speed is unfairly harsh on certain champions. 
That's not to say stealth isn't part of the problem. IMO, the Reds got it right with 's puff of smoke and laugh when he disappears, and 's unique sound FX when he's near you, his indicator, and 
's detection radius. More of this kind of stuff, not exactly the same things, but the little forewarnings and clues unique to each stealth champion would go a long way.
Riot, please.
Epitome of Noob5 votesIn SMITE they have two slots dedicated to consumables.
Dominick Destine1 votes[{quoted}](name=Epitome of Noob,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=reWMOn4A,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2016-07-19T03:30:04.014+0000)
In SMITE they have two slots dedicated to consumables.
Smite (the game) sucks.
Epitome of Noob3 votes[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=reWMOn4A,comment-id=00150000,timestamp=2016-07-19T05:03:11.327+0000)
Smite (the game) sucks.
Learn to read.
Hella Kaiser1 votesjust bc you don't like something it doesn't mean it sucks...
Dominick Destine1 votesjust bc you don't like something it doesn't mean it sucks...
Facts are not opinion.
Hella Kaiser1 votes[deleted]
AninLegions7772 votesI what you did there. ;)
Dominick Destine1 votesWell that's lovely.
Hella Kaiser1 votesdeleted by rito... well! based on your logic it's a fact! RITO Y U HIDE THE TRUTH. (btw you forgot the smiley face in the quote) oh and when you say that something sucks you must argue why.
edit: on steam 85% of the reviews of smite are positive
Dominick Destine1 votesdeleted by rito
The rules apply to everyone evenly. Violate the rules and Riot will (rightfully) delete your comment.
Hella Kaiser1 votesnothing to say about the main argument? k...
Akali is SO HOT4 votesBecause you could hard counter stealth for 250 gold and then after the changes for completely free which was complete bullshit. If you want to completely negate a champions ability to play optimally with a pitiful 75 gold but choose to buy items instead then be my guest. The only time you should be in a position to not be able to buy pink wards is if you are full build and you aren't support and it's VERY uncommon for games to last long enough to the point where people are full build.
If you're playing support you have even less of an excuse to not have a pink on you the whole time. If you want to deal with a mechanic you should have to make sacrifices. Completely countering a mechanic because you were spoon fed the means to do so is not good design and it's a good thing that Riot got rid of it.
Battlecast Sona4 votesYou're an idiot.
Every single other form of item based counters in the game provides meaningful stats (QSS, Mikael's Crucible, Locket, etc).
Literally all I want (and I think what most people want) is the ability to BUILD AN ITEM that actually provides some sort of meaningful stats AND allows me to drop a pink. BARRING THAT I would like inventory slots to be able to accommodate having a pink at 6 items. BARRING EITHER OF THOSE THINGS, I would like for each stealth champion to have a unique counterplay mechanic. I don't really think any of this is too much to ask.
I totally agree that I should have to give something up to counter stealth champions, but having to leave an item slot empty for an entire game to counter them is not only ridiculous (c'mon, I can buy a cleanse on an item but I can't buy a stealth reveal?) but makes you WEAKER to getting burst by the assassin with stealth in question, completely defeating the purpose of buying a pink in the first place unless your team manages to kill them.
What people like you don't realize is that things like an active item that reveals stealth would be BETTER for stealth champions than the current system, because it's not a ward that regens health and has to be attacked 4 times, but rather a mechanic. I mean think about it - would you rather have pink wards completely reveal stealth or have them only give outlines and have a purchaseable item with an 80 second CD to reveal stealth in an area for 3 seconds? The second choice is WAY better for the stealth champion because you can force them to pop it early, avoid the reveal, etc to keep your stealth relevant, but the person playing against you can actually finish their item builds.
Removing the reliance on pinks to counter stealth would be INCREDIBLY healthy overall for stealth champions and for the state of the game, and someday people will realize it. Both having a mechanic that is hard countered by a 75g item AND having to keep my inventory open to purchase said item are unhealthy for the game, so why not just remove both?
Akali is SO HOT1 votesMost stealth champions do have a unique counterplay mechanic.
Shroud tells you exactly where she is when she's stealthed
Confined to a very small area because of how short the duration is for the charges
Huge exclamation mark and sound effect to warn you he is near
Puff of smoke in the beginning animation
Huge ass blades appear from him to signal where he began his stealth
Has to stand still or be in a bush
Confined to a small area because of how short the duration is
The only true offenders are because they have either poor or no warning signs to provide information about their stealth
As I said before, the only situation where you should not be able to have a pink ward in your inventory is when you are full build and it is rare for games to go on long enough for you to be full build. If not a single person on your team has a pink ward then that's your fault. The item you are describing is already in the game and you can get it for free 
The whole reason they got rid of Oracle's Elixer in the first place was because it made ward wars impossible to win if you were behind and completely countered stealth champions. The pink ward totem had the same problem only to a lesser extent. Oracle Alteration was one of the best things to ever be implemented for stealth because it shows you where the champion is without completely countering them with a reveal while also making ward wars have more tradeoffs and strategy.
Having to play around pink wards and their tradeoffs in terms of revealing stealth and taking up an item slot is healthy for the game because it makes for more interesting strategy when trying to deal with them. Forcing your opponent to buy a pink ward makes them use up an item slot and gold and buying a pink ward helps deal with an enemy champions stealth mechanic. There is a tradeoff and learning how to play around it is part of the game. The only champion that is truely hard countered by pinks is Akali and good Akali players have learned to deal with this and play around it. You already get an item to help counter stealth for free so what more do you want?
Battlecast Sona1 votesMy problem is that an outline is useless for large portions of the cast. If you don't have some sort of AoE stun doing damage is worthless (since it doesn't reveal stealth just to hit them), so it's a pretty lame "counter".
And I'm talking about counterplay mechanics that aren't "furiously watch fog of war for Shaco poof". Also if Talon is in fog his blades don't appear (or if he uses them around a corner or something), so that's a pretty poor example.
The only two examples of built in REAL counterplay in this entire game are and . Because when you see an ! you know Rengar is near and if he leaps towards you that actually gives you a second to react, since his leap isn't instant (unlike Talon's, for example), or when you see Eve she has to at least unstealth for a second before she ults to be in ult range.
Stealth should be a tool to allow you to circumvent wards and flank the team, not a tool to let you walk blindly into the middle of them (). Saying that is a counter to stealth is kinda silly because, as I pointed out above, it's only really useful as a "counter" on a small number of champions, because the problem is not knowing where a champion is while stealthed (most of the time you have some sort of idea) but there's not much you can meaningfully do with that idea. I also don't understand why you're fighting this so ardently - I want pink wards to NOT REVEAL STEALTH CHAMPS anymore (because it's too strong of a hard counter to certain stealth champs like or ) in favor of new unique soft counters specific to the champion - not just "GIVE US MORE WAYS TO COUNTER STEALTH". I think pink wards are unhealthy for both sides of the fence - people trying to play stealth AND trying to counter it, so I think we need a new "counter" item that isn't so binary (either you use it properly and the stealth champ is fucked or you don't and it does nothing).
DrugsForRobots1 votesWe're on the same team, but why no love for True Sight? It has its place in the grand scheme of things...
AninLegions7771 votesOkay let me toss you out.
Agreed. Except you forgot she can ward use minions/Jungle camps to escape.
I call BS. 2 seconds of Invisibility isn't "short". Vayne gets only one and see how she fcks shit up. Oh and you forgot that Kha has mad leap range so R>E>Delete ADC>R/E away.
"Oh gee! I know he's here. But I can't see... Oh wait, he's on top of me. Never mind)" Okay seriously, he can ult when he's VERY near like in the FoW closest to you and thanks to the bonus MS from his ult and Ghostblade, he's already 100-0 You before you could react. And you're dead.
He can do it far away so you don't notice the puff of smoke. Do you play against Bad shacos mate?
Sorry but seeing the blades is one thing. Not dying is different. Talon goes R>Ghostblade>E>Q>W, goodbye adc.
True but guess what this fucker also has? INVISIBLE FCKING SHROOMS! AIN'T LIFE GRAND?!
I've watched enough doublelift to know that the 1 sec is still enough to fck you up.
Anymore "counterplay"?
Hella Kaiser1 votes not that big of a problem
if you're not alone you can actually survive
omg there's ren- you have been slain
he doesn't only have a stealth, he has a stalth + flash all in one... that's the problem.
almost balanced... almost...
THE SHROOMS! NOT THE SHROOMS! AAAAAAAAAHHHH
STUN, 1,2,3, kill, stealth roll, stun 1,2,3, double kill.
AninLegions7771 votesYeah watching shaclone play almost gave me disease. Teemo isn't that BIG of a problem but OMG do his Shrooms fck up my day. He's worse than Singed when it comes to the don't chase policy. Oh but if Vayne get's rage blade it's 1,2, Pentakill. Balanced yeah? /kappa [slayer-jinx-wink]
L Psy Kongroo3 votesIf you want a counter to stealth, try the red trinket.
Btw blue trinket is still OP, just swap your useless yellow trinket for blue at level 9 and that'll be plenty of vision (provided everyone uses it).
zlumpy27 votesRed doesnt give tragetability to stealth just shows outlines. So if you don't have a massive cc/burst skill shot it won't help much vs something like twitch.
The Yetii Rider2 votesSo pretty much it doesn't help ADCs. Those are the only champs that rely on point and clicks.
Malignant Vemira14 votes? Umm, Talon, Akali, theres certain champs where pink upgrade was perfect, now if they lock in twitch or eve, akali, etc, you need to carry sweeper, and a pink, or go full aoe assassin like talon to shit on the outline from sweeper. Even Zed cant ult a red outline.
Dengeden2 votesFirstly, sell an item, buy a pink, buy the item again.
Secondly, hahahaaha, how's it feel to be at your support's mercy?
VvVVvV4 votesHow can he buy the itme back if the slot is taken up by the pink?
I hope you are not suggesting to sell a item, buy the pink, go out and place the pin k, then base, buy your item back and then go back out onto the map?
That is time well wasted and by time you get back to the base and back out most likely the pink is killed by then. And im still tryign to figure out the supports mercy comment. Not like the support can have more than 1 pink out.